Class 507 bought for perservation

[jimwal]

24 minutes ago, 009 micro modeller said:

I thought the preserved class 306 started off being kept at Shenfield but I’m not sure how ‘official’ that was.

 

The 306 unit was kept at Ilford car sheds to start with, then I believe moved to the East Anglian railway museum at Chappel and Wakes Colne and is now with the NRM at York or Shildon.

[jimwal]

Some railways use EMU vehicles as hauled stock.

 

A railway in Essex has a pair of ex LTSR line class 302 driving trailers that see use in this way.

As EMU stock is air braked it does require locomotives fitted with train air braking capability.

[009 micro modeller]

10 hours ago, jimwal said:

 

The 306 unit was kept at Ilford car sheds to start with, then I believe moved to the East Anglian railway museum at Chappel and Wakes Colne and is now with the NRM at York or Shildon.

Yes sorry, wrong place. I couldn’t remember if it was Ilford or Shenfield.

[adb968008]

On 06/06/2024 at 14:34, Morello Cherry said:

The Vienna tram network, for example has its own heritage fleet which it houses, maintains and runs. It has always surprised me that there has never been any effort to create an electric traction heritage fleet. I suspect it might have been possible under say BR to have kept a collection at say Willisden, Crewe, etc but not in this privatised world. 

 

The nearest we have is the hedge funders 1:1 trainset.

Capitalism doesnt support sentimentalism.

Never has.

 

The LNER was the only company to keep heritage steam.

Stanier got rid of the last broad gauge GWR engine.

Post war the last Prince of wales, Claughton were aligned for saving and then despatched too.

Even the last LYR dreadnought did a spin to York, and back to Horwich for scrapping.

 

I remember rushing to Cosford to see the BA heritage fleet before that was axed.

 

The problem is shareholders want a return, retired assets sitting in a field / siding dont bring one.

So it falls to the state, and in the UK we have the NRM.

The 507 will only survive as long as the owner has access to funds to keep it. What were seeing is steam and diesel preservation is attracting more money than electric preservation.

There will come a day that diesel and steam operation isnt viable, then it will fall to whatever Electric has survived long enough to be recognised. That day isnt here yet and the 503 has fallen, it doesnt look good for much preserved in the 90’s / 00’s either, but in 20 years things may be different… if the 313/507 make it they will be gems.. if not we’ll be celebrating Electrostars with gap in historical record as big as that between the 1850’s and 1930’s is in steam.

Edited June 8 by adb968008

[5944]

On 30/05/2024 at 13:57, adb968008 said:

NRM has a 313, but its preserved in kirkland yard, Scotland.

As far as I can see, it's not the NRM's. It was designated for preservation but was actually donated by Network Rail to the Fife Heritage Railway.

[Hibelroad]

Actually I quite like the title, persevering with preservation, a new word has been born. History tells us that not all these ventures will be successful but at least some people are putting in tremendous effort rather than just accepting the loss of these historic vehicles. 

[John M Upton]

On 10/06/2024 at 07:06, 5944 said:

As far as I can see, it's not the NRM's. It was designated for preservation but was actually donated by Network Rail to the Fife Heritage Railway.

 

Yes, definitely NOT the NRM's, they never wanted it and played quite a dodging game to get rid of taking it, firstly, getting the designated 313 changed from 313201 to 313121 as apparently the former was too altered (utter nonsense!) and then managing to not avoid taking that on as well.

 

313201 has been sitting in Eastleigh works ever since and last I heard the now Scottish based 313121 which is effectively stuffed and mounted got trashed by vandals.

 

EMU preservation is a very big money pit littered with pipe dreams, big bills, copper fairies and dismal failure.

[009 micro modeller]

22 minutes ago, John M Upton said:

Yes, definitely NOT the NRM's, they never wanted it and played quite a dodging game to get rid of taking it, firstly, getting the designated 313 changed from 313201 to 313121 as apparently the former was too altered (utter nonsense!) and then managing to not avoid taking that on as well.

Wasn’t 313121 thought to be less altered because, while internally it had been adapted for Network Rail use, it was still dual voltage? As opposed to the Southern (ex-Overground/Silverlink etc.) ones that became DC only. A big part of their historical significance is their dual-voltage status. Though why they wanted to preserve it in Scotland is unclear.

[adb968008]

2 hours ago, John M Upton said:

EMU preservation is a very big money pit littered with pipe dreams, big bills, copper fairies and dismal failure.

All preservation faces the same risks.

nothing is restored for free, someone somewhere is paying for, or giving away assets to make it happen.

[5944]

12 hours ago, 009 micro modeller said:

Wasn’t 313121 thought to be less altered because, while internally it had been adapted for Network Rail use, it was still dual voltage? As opposed to the Southern (ex-Overground/Silverlink etc.) ones that became DC only. A big part of their historical significance is their dual-voltage status. Though why they wanted to preserve it in Scotland is unclear.

The argument was that it had a lot of the original seats in it. It also had a lot of seats removed, and a kitchen and a toilet added!  

 

As far as I'm aware, all Southern did to make them single voltage units was to remove the pantograph, and possibly the HT cable between the pantograph and the transformer. Admittedly a lot of the transformers fitted to Southern 313s at the end were knackered, as they'd blown up when fitted to GN 313s and we'd swapped them over!

 

To preserve one because they're dual voltage seems a bit of a stretch. The motor coaches are 750V DC only, and either take power from the third rail or the PTS. 25kV AC was dropped and rectified to 750V DC after the transformer, with cables running to each DMOS. As they were completely independent of each other, it was possibly to run a two car 313!

 

http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/w/watford_west/watford(david_pearson5.1990)west_old11.jpg

 

From http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/w/watford_west/index60.shtml

 

Eight axles, eight motors, that would've shifted! 

 

To swap between supplies, there was simply a linear switch on each DMOS that determined where the traction power came from, either the shoe gear on that coach or from the PTS. Surprisingly simple. 

[adb968008]

So if the NRM doesnt have the 313, does that mean the only production unit in the national collection built in the last 64 years…

 

is 142001 ?..

 

and if including non Prod that only adds Lev1 ?

 

Theres really been no significant Multiple Unit historical development worth saving since then ?

I would have thought a 100mph, Motor Buffet mk3 from a class 442 was worthwhile, especially its recycling credentials… and a Channel Tunnel class 319, given the Thameslink achievements of the 1980’s… But nothing of a York mk3 suburban body shell has been saved yet is to me also a bit of a miss, considering its been used in some form in nearly every city in the country… and made in York. (150/315/317/318/320/321/322/455/456)

 

 

(The NRM has a 414, and a 101 and 108, the newest being 1960).

 

 

Edited June 13 by adb968008

[John M Upton]

Just one driving car from a 442 survives as far as I am aware. All the rest have been cut, many of them with the SWR paint on them still wet...

 

Pretty sure both Channel Tunnel 319's are gone or converted now too.

[Wheatley]

There are 150 and 158s designated. The current owners haven't finished with them yet though !

[adb968008]

20 minutes ago, John M Upton said:

Just one driving car from a 442 survives as far as I am aware. All the rest have been cut, many of them with the SWR paint on them still wet...

 

Pretty sure both Channel Tunnel 319's are gone or converted now too.

Actually theres a few bits around..

I understand a poor condition motor buffet at Wolverton may still exist, and a few cars for some unknown purpose.

 

But theres a driving trailer and a few centre trailers at Eastleigh, and they have been quite active, the Driving car was hooked upto and powered onto a HST set… pictures of it with lights on exist. But to what purpose ive no idea.

 

 

Edited June 13 by adb968008

[rodent279]

Poor show by the NRM. They've always preferred the big sexy stuff.

No they don't have room for everything, I appreciate that, but I'm not sure their priorities are right, and I think some things are being lost forever. I'd think an example of a once prolific genus of commuter train, built in York, would be something useful to represent rail travel for the masses in the latter 3rd of the 20th century.

Edited June 13 by rodent279

[Wheatley]

1 hour ago, rodent279 said:

I'd think an example of a once prolific genus of commuter train, built in York, would be something useful to represent rail travel for the masses in the latter 3rd of the 20th century.

 

1 hour ago, Wheatley said:

There are 150 and 158s designated. 

 

[009 micro modeller]

3 hours ago, adb968008 said:

But nothing of a York mk3 suburban body shell has been saved yet is to me also a bit of a miss, considering its been used in some form in nearly every city in the country… and made in York. (150/315/317/318/320/321/322/455/456)

Surely 315s are PEP-derived rather than Mk3? Similar to 313/314/507/508.

[Morello Cherry]

I struggle to see the NRM as a national collection. Big sexy stuff and ephemera seems to be all the collection is. The NRM is a shop and cafe with a few engines parked around.

 

On the subject of emus I note that the Clacton unit is listed for sale.

 

Again, in the Netherlands the museum in Utrecht uses (sometimes) emus from its collection to run the service that connects Utrecht Centraal to the museum. 

 

The very difficultly in maintaining EMUs on private heritage lines is exactly why the NRM should take a more proactive role in ensuring they are represented within the story of UK railways. 

[russ p]

Sad thing with the 442s is that they are actually useful in preservation as they have air brakes as opposed to westcode so can be hauled and I may be wrong here but I think a 33/1 or a 73 can be controlled by one

There was a plan to use them on TPE but CAF (a massive tory doner company)  came up with that rubbish mk5 fleet and powers that be made sure they didn't exist anymore.  Shame as probably the best EMU to work in this country 

[Reorte]

On 08/06/2024 at 13:09, adb968008 said:

Capitalism doesnt support sentimentalism.

Never has.

Which, ironically, is a sentiment.

[adb968008]

On 13/06/2024 at 20:38, russ p said:

Sad thing with the 442s is that they are actually useful in preservation as they have air brakes as opposed to westcode so can be hauled and I may be wrong here but I think a 33/1 or a 73 can be controlled by one

There was a plan to use them on TPE but CAF (a massive tory doner company)  came up with that rubbish mk5 fleet and powers that be made sure they didn't exist anymore.  Shame as probably the best EMU to work in this country 

Whilst I like 442’s..

With 442’s on TPE I suspect the eventual outcome would still have been the same…

Taken out of service during covid and scrapped.

 

The 442s have been a problem looking for a solution since the 444’s were built.

Edited June 18 by adb968008