Help understanding functions of a BLT/Layout advice

[Qweqwe]

Hi,

I saw this track plan posted in this thread: 

I really like the look of it and I'd like to build something similar, however, I don't know much about prototype railways so I'm looking for some information.

1. Once the loco and train are parked in the siding at the top of the layout, how does it get out? Does another loco come along to take the train to release the first loco? I don't see how else the engine can get around to the other end of the train.

2. There’s a little siding(?) at the end of the run around loop (in this diagram it's just behind/above the goods shed). What would such a short piece of track be used for? Could I put a small engine shed here?

3. Similar to question 1: how would a goods train enter the good siding? Does the train enter the loco first into the goods siding and then get released by another loco, or does the train enter into the runaround loop first, loco then runs around to the other end, and then pushes the train through the goods shed?

4. I have the room to add another turnout or two. Any suggestions to improve operational interest? I'm not 100% committed to adding more points but if anyone has a simple suggestion that would allow for a little bit of shunting or something using just 1 or 2 more points, I'd love to hear it.

 

Many thanks!

 

 

[DavidB-AU]

1. It doesn't. To me this looks like the goods shed. A train would arrive in the platform or the loop, loco runs around, then you shunt.

 

2. To me this looks like a cattle dock. You could put an engine shed there but if a terminus had a shed it would most likely be closer to the station throat. For example:

 

 

Personally I'm not a fan of engine sheds at the typical BLT as they take up space that could be used for something else. Although they did exist, more often than not the loco would live at the junction and would only need to take water at the terminus. A water crane would most likely be at the outer end of the platform.

 

3. See 1. That would most likely be a coal siding but could possibly have a yard crane.

 

4. You could add another siding either where the ES is shown above, perhaps a dairy or pottery. But resist the temptation to cram in as much track as possible. Sometimes less is more.

 

Alternatively, if the goods shed is moved to the same siding as the coal staithes, the siding at the top could become a dock/bay platform. This could be used for loading milk and parcels, or for short passenger trains (e.g. auto train or rail motor). Even a short loco-hauled passenger train could arrive at the main platform, run around, shunt to the bay and depart from there after another train has arrived.

[Qweqwe]

Thanks for the helpful info. Much appreciated. So for that siding at the end of the runaround, if there is no cattle dock or loading bay or whatever attached to it, I could remove it?

[DavidB-AU]

You could remove it although it's a very common BLT feature to have something there. Have a look at some prototypes in your desired area and era.

 

[Harlequin]

That's one of my drawings that has been modified and if you look back through that thread you'll find a version with a kickback engine shed where DavidB-AU has shown it.

 

1. At a small BLT like this, trains would be signalled to enter the main platform line only. That's true for both Goods and Passenger. The signalling (and economics) determines what's allowed.

 

2. It's a potentially useful little spur. It doesn't have to be there. You could use it for an engine shed but if you do remember to make it long enough for an ash pit, coal stage/platform and water column/tower. And remember that the spacing of the platform line and the run round loop will usually be quite close so just continuing the spur on in parallel won't leave enough room for a shed. The two spurs will need to be splayed apart. Many small termini did have engine sheds and they can be in a wide range of positions.

 

3. See 1. At small stations like this it was very rare for two locos to be present at the same time. The train loco normally does everything. Note also that locos were usually not allowed to pass through goods sheds and shunting continued in the yard when there was no loco around - it was done manually using "pinch bars" or by horse.

 

4. Yes. More sidings. But don't fill the space with track. If you have room try to set the station within a non-railway scene.

 

Have a look at Bucklecombe in my Album. 

 

Edited May 30 by Harlequin

[Qweqwe]

Thank you! This seems like a really nice track plan. You’ve done all the hard work for me! Although I have about 5.5 metres of length to play with just for the scenic section, I’m definitely trying to avoid putting too much track down, which is why I’m going for a branch line.

If I could ask a favour though just to help my understanding…

With the cattle pens and dairy industry being on opposite sides of the siding with the points in the middle, what would be an appropriate way to get wagons to their respective areas?

Let’s say a goods train arrives into the platform with a cattle van and a dairy tanker. I assume the engine run around to the back, then shunts both wagons into the cattle pen siding. What then? Is this where pinch bars are used to get the dairy tanker to the dairy industry? (Does that therefore necessitate me using the hand of god? haha)

 

Thanks for sharing your knowledge!

[Flying Pig]

4 hours ago, DavidB-AU said:

. To me this looks like a cattle dock. You could put an engine shed there but if a terminus had a shed it would most likely be closer to the station throat. For example:

 

This is my alteration of @Harlequin's plan and I'd second the suggestion to look at the many variations on the thread where it was posted.  In this particular version, the short siding is a loading dock with a lock-up goods shed as we were trying to fit a very tight space.  There are other variations on the thread with more sidings and with a loco shed in various positions. 

[Wheatley]

The short siding at the end of the loop - some BLTs had them some didn't, its a useful place to keep a spare coach or it might serve an end loading dock or similar. It was also a handy place to leave a wagon of gas cylinders ('Cordon' etc) if there were coaches to be recharged at the terminus. 

 

On Portwilliam it was the goods shed siding until I widened the boards, now it doubles as an end loading dock and the transfer siding for the harbour branch/tramway. Whatever ramshackle motive power the tramway has managed to borrow occasionally shuffles up from the harbour with a couple of vans/wagons of fish, shortbread or pit props, and leaves them there out of the way of the other goods sidings. Here it's holding a new MF135 tractor awaiting unloading, at other times odd bits of departmental stock sit in there. 

 

On a model it's a useful place to display a bit of rolling stock that can justifiably sit around doing nothing much for a while. 

 

Edited May 29 by Wheatley
There/their/they're

[Dungrange]

46 minutes ago, Qweqwe said:

With the cattle pens and dairy industry being on opposite sides of the siding with the points in the middle, what would be an appropriate way to get wagons to their respective areas?

Let’s say a goods train arrives into the platform with a cattle van and a dairy tanker. I assume the engine run around to the back, then shunts both wagons into the cattle pen siding. What then? Is this where pinch bars are used to get the dairy tanker to the dairy industry? (Does that therefore necessitate me using the hand of god? haha)

 

No need for the hand of God, just the grey matter between the ears.  I'm assuming that this question relates to Bucklecombe.

 

If the train was just a cattle wagon and milk tanker (in that order), then arrive in the main platform.  Run round and couple to the milk tank and shunt it to the loop.  Return to the main platform and shunt the cattle wagon to the cattle dock.  Return to the main platform as far as the loco release and then propel the milk tank from the loop to towards the fiddle yard.  Draw into the cattle dock and then propel the milk tank into the dairy.

 

Of course in reality, you'll have a goods brake as well, so before propelling the milk tank out onto the mainline, you'll need to uncouple the brake and put it somewhere (eg the siding leading to the goods shed), or you couple it to the locomotive and leave it attached while you run round to propel the milk tank.  That would of course require that your loco release is as long as your locomotive plus goods brake.   Add in another wagon, and there should be plenty of puzzle solving required.

[Rivercider]

A few thoughts on the plan, and branch line terminals in general.

 

Engine sheds at branch line terminals were very common in the South West for example. Working around the coast and moors from Somerset to Devon, Cornwall and Dorset I can think of twenty five with engine sheds at the end of the branch and only seven or eight that I think never had an engine shed. Most engine sheds here lasted until the end of steam but a few (Falmouth, Sidmouth, Minehead for example) were closed before the end of steam. 

 

The short spur at the end of the run-round loop was often, but not always present at a station, it could be a useful place to hold some stock. Imagine the branch passenger train normally comprises one or two coaches, an additional spare coach could be attached for the morning and afternoon school runs, or to strengthen the branch train on market day. The spur could also be somewhere to put the brake van while the daily goods train gets shunted.

 

Land was cheaper in rural areas, so many country terminals occupied a lot of space, and were often very long.

You have plenty of space available to let your station breathe, so perhaps pick a plan you like and lengthen the platform and/or sidings if you can. I agree to resist the temptation to add too many more sidings.

 

Is there a part of the country you like or know well, do you have a favourite among the Big Four railway companies? If so check out some of their typical branch lines so you can add some local character.

One example of this seems to be the coal bins (or pens), often made of old wooden sleepers, they seem to be a common feature of former LSWR/SR stations in the West, but not so common elsewhere,

 

Good luck

cheers   

Edited May 29 by Rivercider
Tidying up.

[Harlequin]

1 hour ago, Qweqwe said:

Thank you! This seems like a really nice track plan. You’ve done all the hard work for me! Although I have about 5.5 metres of length to play with just for the scenic section, I’m definitely trying to avoid putting too much track down, which is why I’m going for a branch line.

If I could ask a favour though just to help my understanding…

With the cattle pens and dairy industry being on opposite sides of the siding with the points in the middle, what would be an appropriate way to get wagons to their respective areas?

Let’s say a goods train arrives into the platform with a cattle van and a dairy tanker. I assume the engine run around to the back, then shunts both wagons into the cattle pen siding. What then? Is this where pinch bars are used to get the dairy tanker to the dairy industry? (Does that therefore necessitate me using the hand of god? haha)

 

Thanks for sharing your knowledge!

 

@Dungrange has nailed the answer to your question.

 

A full milk tanker is a very heavy beast but I think I'm right in saying that even they could be moved manually by pinch bars. I think that used to happen regularly at Hemyock and one of the staff would ride the tanker once it got moving so he could apply the brakes in the station. However, in the model we have to use the loco.

 

Before you finally decide on a BLT, have you thought about a small through station on a single line branch line? Such stations were more common than BLTs, can justifiably have two locos on scene at the same time (if it's a passing station), can have more varied traffic passing through from A to B and you can set them up as part of a full circuit of your railway room, which allows trains to simply circulate on their own.

 

[Qweqwe]

Awesome, thanks for the replies! This is really helpful to me, I have no prior knowledge of railways so this has really helped to build my understanding of what I can model. With regard to having a through station, I’ve decided on doing a terminus for the time being so that I can build the terminus as a stand alone section and just connect it to a very basic fiddle yard with a few points on it to store different trains. That way I can still have fun running a few trains back and forth without having to set up the whole loop. In the long run I’ll definitely consider a loop but for now I’m happy to get started with something small and manageable, especially since this is my first attempt at a layout.

 

Thanks again for the helpful replies!

[Rivercider]

2 minutes ago, Qweqwe said:

Awesome, thanks for the replies! This is really helpful to me, I have no prior knowledge of railways so this has really helped to build my understanding of what I can model. With regard to having a through station, I’ve decided on doing a terminus for the time being so that I can build the terminus as a stand alone section and just connect it to a very basic fiddle yard with a few points on it to store different trains. That way I can still have fun running a few trains back and forth without having to set up the whole loop. In the long run I’ll definitely consider a loop but for now I’m happy to get started with something small and manageable, especially since this is my first attempt at a layout.

 

Thanks again for the helpful replies!

Even if you start out with a terminus station you could still design in the possibility of an extension later. During the era of railway construction there are numerous examples of stations that started as a terminus but became a through station at a later date.

Sometimes more finance became available and the line extended, sometimes the money ran out so the station remained as a terminus. The example of Harlequin's Bucklecombe illustrates the point nicely, it would be easy to imagine the line extended off to the right.

 

cheers

[Qweqwe]

2 hours ago, Flying Pig said:

 

This is my alteration of @Harlequin's plan and I'd second the suggestion to look at the many variations on the thread where it was posted.  In this particular version, the short siding is a loading dock with a lock-up goods shed as we were trying to fit a very tight space.  There are other variations on the thread with more sidings and with a loco shed in various positions. 

Yes I’ve read through that thread start to finish, I definitely learnt a lot but I just had a couple of beginner questions I wanted to ask and I didn’t want to derail the original thread. I really liked the track plan that you both suggested which is why I decided to pinch it. Thanks for taking the time to help out :)

[Michael Hodgson]

6 hours ago, Qweqwe said:

Let’s say a goods train arrives into the platform with a cattle van and a dairy tanker. I assume the engine run around to the back, then shunts both wagons into the cattle pen siding. What then? Is this where pinch bars are used to get the dairy tanker to the dairy industry?

 

 

You need to think about regular traffic flows and what supplies an industry consumes and what products it sends out.

 

Cattle traffic tended to be on market days.  Nothing most days, perhaps several once a week.

 

Tanks (whether milk, oil or any other liquid) can't be handled just anywhere.  They need special facilities (various pipework) for loading and unloading.  Too many models run oil tanks to a branch terminus that doesn't have a suitable siding for unloading!  So if you want to justify running a milk tank to a BLT you do need the dairy.  Traditionally farmers supplied milk in churns to stations, the churns being loaded onto vans (such as the GWR Siphons), this being the only milk traffic handled at most rural stations. 

 

The dairy needs a supply of milk to fill the tanks, so this supply would mostly arrive in these vans loaded at other rural stations.  If the dairy also acted as a creamery its products (butter and cheese) would leave in vans.  Liquid milk by the tankful would generally go fairly long distances to large cities like London or Manchester. 

 

A through station justifies more vehicle types than a branch.  For example, milk and oil tanks can be justified as through traffic to somewhere else on the line, even though the wayside station can't load or unload them. 

 

Most of the traffic at a BLT would be general merchandise in open wagons or vans, coal traffic to a merchant, perhaps the occasional horse box or a machinery wagon loaded by a yard crane.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Chris M]

8 hours ago, Harlequin said:

That's one of my drawings that has been modified and if you look back through that thread you'll find a version with a kickback engine shed where DavidB-AU has shown it.

 

1. At a small BLT like this, trains would be signalled to enter the main platform line only. That's true for both Goods and Passenger. The signalling (and economics) determines what's allowed.

 

2. It's a potentially useful little spur. It doesn't have to be there. You could use it for an engine shed but remember to make it long enough for an ash pit, coal stage/platform and water column/tower. And remember that the spacing of the platform line and the run round loop will usually be quite close and just continuing on in parallel won't leave enough room for a shed. The two spurs will need to be splayed apart. Many small termini did have engine sheds and they can be in a wide range of positions.

 

3. See 1. At small stations like this it was very rare for two locos to be present at the same time. The train loco normally does everything. Note also that locos were usually not allowed to pass through goods sheds and shunting continued in the yard when there was no loco around - it was done manually using "pinch bars" or by horse.

 

4. Yes. More sidings. But don't fill the space with track. If you have room try to set the station within a non-railway scene.

 

Have a look at Bucklecombe in my Album. 

 

That's a lovely BLT plan. The two track bridge over the river is a bit ostentatious though. There would almost certainly only be a single track across the river as it would half the cost of construction. There may have been other more extravagant railways but the Midland Railway would certainly not waste money on a double track bridge, even it it resulted in a less convenient track plan.

[Harlequin]

5 minutes ago, Chris M said:

That's a lovely BLT plan. The two track bridge over the river is a bit ostentatious though. There would almost certainly only be a single track across the river as it would half the cost of construction. There may have been other more extravagant railways but the Midland Railway would certainly not waste money on a double track bridge, even it it resulted in a less convenient track plan.

 

Thanks! Obviously it's all a bit artificial to make a good scene but there is precedent for a double track bridge with the engine shed on the other side: Aberayron. And that was always an impecunious railway line, which never made a profit in its entire existence, AFAIR!

 

 

[Chris M]

I've gone for something a little different in N as I am building a shelf layout. It's not perhaps 100% prototypical but it provides operational interest. The problem with being 100% prototypical is that you would usually be limited to just one loco trundling up and down the branch and there would almost never be two locos at the terminus at the same time. This layout is in N gauge and is 3.9 metres long but only 18cm deep as that's all the room I had on the shelf. 

 

Features on this are an intermediate station which I think adds interest. It has a very simple goods yard because that's all the space I have. I carefully measured out the length of various wagons so a train of two vans and two coal wagons can arrive and be swapped for wagons already in the yard. Goods trains have to use the run round facility at the platform. I have put a little platform in on the spare bit of track which I will use for railcars. As it is an imaginary branch there is no reason why there can't be a junction a few miles down the line so trains arrive at the terminus from two different locations - well that's my excuse anyway. This layout is very much under development at the moment but, having played with it a little, I think I'm going to like it.

[Chris M]

This is a rough video showing a bit of shunting on my above mentioned layout. It was only a system test before continuing scenic work so the operation is not smooth. It gives an idea of shunting the yard, forming a train and using the run round loop.

 

[chuffinghell]

The only advice I can offer for a BLT is to make sure the bacon is extra crispy 🤪

 

[Flying Pig]

1 hour ago, Michael Hodgson said:

A through station justifies more vehicle types than a branch.  For example, milk and oil tanks can be justified as through traffic to somewhere else on the line, even though the wayside station can't load or unload them. 

 

Most of the traffic at a BLT would be general merchandise in open wagons or vans, coal traffic to a merchant, perhaps the occasional horse box or a machinery wagon loaded by a yard crane.

 

 

Assuming you meant "more vehicle types than a branch terminus", remember that the branch goods works out to the terminus and back and may shunt sidings in both parts of the journey (depending on the orientation of the sidings). In that sense, the terminus is a through station, part way along its journey. All the wagons that have been picked up on the outward run and any wagons waiting to be set out on the return run will be in the train when it reaches the terminus and will depart with it.  Any kind of wagon can appear in the train, so long as you can imagine a suitable destination somewhere along the branch.

[Michael Hodgson]

19 minutes ago, Flying Pig said:

 

Any kind of wagon can appear in the train, so long as you can imagine a suitable destination somewhere along the branch.

Yes, but you'd only run round and send it back - you wouldn't shunt it to the sidings

[Flying Pig]

2 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

Yes, but you'd only run round and send it back - you wouldn't shunt it to the sidings

 

True, but my response was to your discussion of wagons appearing in through traffic.

[DCB]

22 hours ago, Qweqwe said:

Thanks for the helpful info. Much appreciated. So for that siding at the end of the runaround, if there is no cattle dock or loading bay or whatever attached to it, I could remove it?

Its a very common feature of models but not universal, a lot depended on whether the station was designed as a terminus or as part of a through route.  The end of the KWVR does not have one, nor does Nailsworth (?) both Midland and Tetbury GWR as the line was intended to continue further.  Faringdon and Cirencester GWR were definitely the end of the line so had the stub/loading dock.  Bodmin GWR had the stub and since about 2020 had a dock/platform added. My BLT   "Ugleigh" had one but it was a nuisance so I ripped the track up.  late GWR practice seemed to be for a loop and 2 long sidings whether terminus or through station
Its worth remembering how big some rural BLTs were   Faringdon (Wilts) run round could hold 40 wagons but the distance beyond the points would not take a 43XX 2-6-0.    Few BLTs needed a headshunt as they had two or four miles of track clear to the next signal box, and trans don't just turn up,   Usual exception is where there is a steep gradient.   A level headshunt and a main line climbing past looks great on a model.  

 

On 29/05/2024 at 01:25, Qweqwe said:

Hi,

I saw this track plan posted in this thread: 

I really like the look of it and I'd like to build something similar, however, I don't know much about prototype railways so I'm looking for some information.

 

Revisiting that thread I think we all misunderstood the question, the OPs diagram suggests to me that the main line entered from the LEFT not top right.

[AndyB]

Hi @Qweqwe noting that you've got 5.5m of scenic area to play with, and that Phil's plan works out at 3.8m, there's scope for your trains to take a short journey between the station and FY.

 

This can be an opportunity to try out some more scenic ideas and develop your modelling skills...as well as letting you watch your trains amble through a stretch of countryside (roughly 5.5' in length).

 

I took this approach on an earlier N gauge layout with a significant run through countryside (18') between the FY and station throat. It was quite pleasing to watch a train trundle along for about a minute and gave me space to develop some interesting scenery.

 

Andy