HOP 21/HTO/HTV, By Accurascale

[Porcy Mane]

1 hour ago, jjnewitt said:

Could they be in use in coke traffic, maybe in connection with GKN?

 

There's a few pics of 21 tonners knocking about up in the valleys.

 

OCT 74 04. Barclay 0-6-0ST Llantanam Abbey at Mountain Ash, September 1974 by Andy Kirkham, on Flickr

 

Don't know much about the South Wales steel works but I assume they made there own steelworks grade coke as well as importing it in.  Maybe those 21 tonners were used for bringing in high gas coal from ooop north for coking?

 

Coke traffic was a strange bird in the North East. Consett Iron Co. made their own and also bought from the NCB. Yet at the same time there was also a run as necessary (most weekdays) coke fulls that ran to the Avenue Cokeworks in Chesterfield. I've never found out why?

 

A study of the freight WTT's might show up something.

 

Edited May 25 by Porcy Mane

[Enterprisingwestern]

1 minute ago, Porcy Mane said:

Yet at the same time there was also a run as necessary (most weekdays) coke fulls that ran to the Avenue Cokeworks in Chesterfield. I've never found out why?

 

Blending.

 

Mike.

[Porcy Mane]

5 minutes ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

Blending.

 

 

Possibly?

 

 

[Rivercider]

2 hours ago, LNERandBR said:

A query I have is it's mentioned these were still running into the 1980's. When was their last year of operation and what traffic were they used on in their final few years?

I was only aware of 21t hoppers used in coal, coke or other patent fuel traffic, though thinking about it in the final years some HTVs were used for scrap traffic. Edit - and also sand traffic from Fen Drayton as mentioned by 31A.

The traditional vacuum braked wagon load network that served goods yards and domestic coal depots was wound down in 1983, with a limited network of services conveying domestic coal and scrap traffic finally ceasing in 1984. BR had introduced the air braked Speedlink Network to move traffic in wagon loads and also encouraged coal depots to instal pits to enable the discharge of hopper wagons, so new air braked HBA and HEA type wagons took over the carriage of domestic coal.

After 1984 21t hoppers still in revenue earning service would would normally been only be seen in trainloads for specific customers, mostly by this date it would only be the vacuum braked examples (TOPS code HTV) still in use. Many of the unfitted 21t hoppers were taken out of use in 1980 during the British Steel strike, 

 

cheers

Edited May 25 by Rivercider
Edit - some hoppers were used for scrap traffic, and sand traffic..

[Michael Hodgson]

9 minutes ago, Rivercider said:

After 1984 21t hoppers still in revenue earning service would would normally been only be seen in trainloads for specific customers, mostly by this date it would only be the vacuum braked examples (TOPS code HTV) still in use. Many of the unfitted 21t hoppers were taken out of use in 1980 during the British Steel strike, 

 

cheers

 

Surely it would always have had to be for specific customers, as you needed facilities for bottom disharge - a hopper wouldn't be much use to a typical coal merchant who was only equipped to bag up house coal from traditional wagons with drop doors.  Different matter if he had NER style coal drops of course.

[Porcy Mane]

38 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

Different matter if he had NER style coal drops of course.

 

21 ton steels were also tippled in the NE..(and elsewhere).

 

Although it shows an NCB wooden hopper steels also went through here. A film made by one of my heroes. See it in action at the BFI.

 

https://player.bfi.org.uk/free/film/watch-your-heritage-the-river-tyne-1962-online

 

Zip the film forward to 07':10".

 

Vac fitted rebodies with improved door sealing was used to transport agricultural lime from a specially built platform at Ferryhill  (Co. Durham) to Scotland well into the eighties. The wagons should have travelled with tarps but they were rarely fitted. The platform at Ferryhill can still be seen from passing trains.

Edited May 25 by Porcy Mane

[Rivercider]

15 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

 

Surely it would always have had to be for specific customers, as you needed facilities for bottom disharge - a hopper wouldn't be much use to a typical coal merchant who was only equipped to bag up house coal from traditional wagons with drop doors.  Different matter if he had NER style coal drops of course.

Well yes hoppers could obviously only be loaded to places equipped to handle them. My point was that while the vacuum braked wagon load network still existed until 1984 it would be common to see 21t hoppers singly or in small groups mixed in with other traffic moving between marshalling yards. In the Bristol Division of the WR 21t hoppers went to coal depots at Droitwich, Cheltenham, Stonehouse Road, Filton, Wapping Wharf, Exmouth Junction, Taunton, possibly Drinnick Mill, and Yeovil Junction which was a later addition. 

After 1984 I believe that 21t hoppers remaining in revenue earning service would only be moved in block trains, there being no other way of moving them. Perhaps I did not explain it very well.

 

cheers

[31A]

2 hours ago, LNERandBR said:

A query I have is it's mentioned these were still running into the 1980's. When was their last year of operation and what traffic were they used on in their final few years?

 

Quite a late use of them was on the sand traffic from Fen Drayton (near St. Ives, Cambs) to various places on the GN.  Eventually they were replaced by some bogie hoppers, but it must have been well into the 1980s by the time that happened.

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/52087249@N07/8534810032/in/album-72157632935569242/

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/52087249@N07/8534903148/in/album-72157632932040983/

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/52087249@N07/14273206894/in/album-72157632932040983/

 

[Rivercider]

7 minutes ago, 31A said:

 

Quite a late use of them was on the sand traffic from Fen Drayton (near St. Ives, Cambs) to various places on the GN.  Eventually they were replaced by some bogie hoppers, but it must have been well into the 1980s by the time that happened.

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/52087249@N07/8534810032/in/album-72157632935569242/

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/52087249@N07/8534903148/in/album-72157632932040983/

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/52087249@N07/14273206894/in/album-72157632932040983/

 

Of course I should have remembered the sand traffic. I took a couple of photos of the HTVs on the sand train on 1985, here 31319 and 37125 depart from Cambriidge with a loaded train for Kings Cross, the 31319 had just been attached front. 11/7/85

 

 

Here is a train containing HTVs during 1983 when the wagon load network was running down.

Running into Stoke Gifford up loop is 47072 with a train from Severn Tunnel Junction to Acton. There is a mix of HTVs and MCVs with other traffic towards the rear. 7/9/83 

 

cheers

Edited May 25 by Rivercider
Additional photo added.

[John Isherwood]

11 minutes ago, 31A said:

Eventually they were replaced by some bogie hoppers .....

 

Despite living within sight of the Fen Drayton branch, up to and beyond its lifting, I have to say that I do not recall bogie hoppers succeeding the four-wheeled ones.

 

Do you have details of them?

 

CJI.

[31A]

4 minutes ago, cctransuk said:

 

Despite living within sight of the Fen Drayton branch, up to and beyond its lifting, I have to say that I do not recall bogie hoppers succeeding the four-wheeled ones.

 

Do you have details of them?

 

CJI.

 

I'm not sure what type the bogie hoppers were, they were pretty nondescript things, but here's a picture of the train in KX Goods after it had gone over to the bogie wagons:

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/52087249@N07/14293875913/in/album-72157632932040983/

 

In the second half of the 1980s I lived in a flat near the cycleway bridge, overlooking the north end of Cambridge station and the yard.  At the beginning of that time the shunting was very entertaining, particularly of the sand train hoppers in the evenings - I assume they must have been cutting out cripples or wagons that were due overhaul, but it often seemed quite complicated!  After the bogie hoppers came in there was hardly any shunting needed of them, and with the demise of Speedlink, by the end of the decade there was hardly any shunting left at all to watch.

 

[John Isherwood]

3 minutes ago, 31A said:

 

I'm not sure what type the bogie hoppers were, they were pretty nondescript things, but here's a picture of the train in KX Goods after it had gone over to the bogie wagons:

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/52087249@N07/14293875913/in/album-72157632932040983/

 

In the second half of the 1980s I lived in a flat near the cycleway bridge, overlooking the north end of Cambridge station and the yard.  At the beginning of that time the shunting was very entertaining, particularly of the sand train hoppers in the evenings - I assume they must have been cutting out cripples or wagons that were due overhaul, but it often seemed quite complicated!  After the bogie hoppers came in there was hardly any shunting needed of them, and with the demise of Speedlink, by the end of the decade there was hardly any shunting left at all to watch.

 

Odd, I have no recollection of those bogie hoppers.

 

However, perhaps not surprising - latterly, the sand train ran on the branch in the wee small hours. I recall being wakened by it on occasion, but was never motivated to get up and see it!

 

CJI.

[Mark C]

54 minutes ago, 31A said:

 

Quite a late use of them was on the sand traffic from Fen Drayton (near St. Ives, Cambs) to various places on the GN.  Eventually they were replaced by some bogie hoppers, but it must have been well into the 1980s by the time that happened.

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/52087249@N07/8534810032/in/album-72157632935569242/

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/52087249@N07/8534903148/in/album-72157632932040983/

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/52087249@N07/14273206894/in/album-72157632932040983/

 

...and with complementary motive power from Accurascale too (Class 47 excepted (I usually saw either 31s or 37s on this traffic))...

 

Mark

 

 

Mark

[zr2498]

On 25/05/2024 at 07:59, Downendian said:

Hornby’s recent (well nearly a decade ago!) model is the BR-built riveted version of the LNER designed hopper first introduced in the 1930s. They have numbered the wagons in the diag 1/100 series (e.g E306266; built 1948) and in diag 1/141 (eg B411182). Both 1/100 and 1/141 wagons were built as either riveted or welded bodies, Hornby representing the former. The Parkside kit PC80 is of a 1/100 wagon. Someone with more knowledge may be able to tell you what the difference between the 1/100 and 1/141 diagrams are, but externally they appear identical.

 

Apart from the obvious riveted bodies on the Hornby model, the big difference are the brakes. LNER derivatives had single sided brakes with high hand levers whilst the forthcoming  Accurascale models have Morton brakes as per the Parkside kits PC77/8. 

Huge numbers of E-prefixed and 1/141 wagons (and of course most diagrams) were rebodied in the late 1960s/1970s having two rib bodies. Most were welded, but a number had “Huck bolts” giving the wagon a different appearance. As always refer to Paul Bartlett’s excellent site and the David Larkin books wagons of the early/middle/final British railways era. David’s books give precise details of the various hopper diagrams, welded or riveted and numbers, but you will need to buy all volumes of the aforementioned series covering your years of interest.

 

I’d always thought that the LNER design hoppers were rare on the WR, but a photo on my home turf, Stoke Gifford yard, I’ve found shows a rake of almost exclusively rebodied LNER braked examples sitting in the yard. I was wrong in my assumptions - if only I’d paid more attention 50 years ago- I blame the hydraulics for that! 

 

Neil - who’s spent the last year or so on a steep learning curve on the variety and complexity of BR 21T hoppers 

Thanks for this information. Clearly the Accurascale hoppers will be later diagrams than the Hornby model. I have some diagram 100 and 1/141 Hornby models and yes, they look identical apart from the markings.

The same Hornby model also extends to HTO markings. I assume that some of the 1/141s just had their markings modified before the more extensive structural modifications in the late 60s?

I would say the Hornby model looks reasonable. Not to the same standard as the Accurascale offerings, but a mix with Acc's pre Tops 21t hoppers would seem to be OK.

Edited May 26 by zr2498
Not 1/100

[Downendian]

Yes indeed there was a gradual evolution of classification of 21T hoppers communicated on the wagon panel which changed over the decades since their introduction. By the 1970s most were branded as HOP21 (unfitted) or HOP21VB (vac fitted); then HOP21HTO/ HOP21HTV and finally just HTO/HTV when TOPS classifications came in. The Hornby hoppers represent the early unfitted diagrams, vacuum braking became the norm from diag 1/146 (Accurascale models) but many were still built unfitted even then (about half of 1/146 were built unfitted).  Unfitted wagons were still operating in large numbers into the 1970s, and the David Larkin books gives the specific wagons so treated. Some HTOs were piped so that they could continue the vacuum brakes through the train, as most consists by then were operating as fitted heads.

 

You can readily mix Hornby and Accurascale hoppers but make sure the wagons adjacent to the loco are vac fitted, certainly the South Wales coal traffic I saw heading towards Acton were that format, but often included Brake tenders and the essential brake van bringing up the rear to ensure adequate braking when operating as class 7 or 8 freights.

 

Neil

[45125]

7 hours ago, Rivercider said:

I was only aware of 21t hoppers used in coal, coke or other patent fuel traffic, though thinking about it in the final years some HTVs were used for scrap traffic. Edit - and also sand traffic from Fen Drayton as mentioned by 31A.

The traditional vacuum braked wagon load network that served goods yards and domestic coal depots was wound down in 1983, with a limited network of services conveying domestic coal and scrap traffic finally ceasing in 1984. BR had introduced the air braked Speedlink Network to move traffic in wagon loads and also encouraged coal depots to instal pits to enable the discharge of hopper wagons, so new air braked HBA and HEA type wagons took over the carriage of domestic coal.

After 1984 21t hoppers still in revenue earning service would would normally been only be seen in trainloads for specific customers, mostly by this date it would only be the vacuum braked examples (TOPS code HTV) still in use. Many of the unfitted 21t hoppers were taken out of use in 1980 during the British Steel strike, 

 

cheers

Grain, bauxite and abrasive material for grinding wheels was also a use for 21ton hoppers.

 

[Mark Saunders]

1 hour ago, zr2498 said:

I have some diagram 1/100 and 1/141 Hornby models and yes, they look identical apart from the markings.

 

The LNER dia 100 (not BR 1/100 ex MoT mineral) and BR 1/141 were the same, one of the early BR ones from Head Wrightson was a LNER order that was cancelled and reinstated as a BR one, details of this are in the order book held by Teesside Archives.

[Downendian]

9 hours ago, Mark Saunders said:

The LNER dia 100 (not BR 1/100 ex MoT mineral) and BR 1/141 were the same, one of the early BR ones from Head Wrightson was a LNER order that was cancelled and reinstated as a BR one, details of this are in the order book held by Teesside Archives.

Indeed I corrected my post- should be LNER diag 100 not 1/100 

[Enterprisingwestern]

2 minutes ago, Downendian said:

Indeed I corrected my post- should be LNER diag 100 not 1/100 

 

Building the Parkside kits has fried your brain cells!!!

 

Mike.

[Michael Hodgson]

10 hours ago, 45125 said:

 

abrasive material for grinding wheels was also a use for 21ton hoppers.

 

Sand is bad enough, but this doesn't sound like the sort of stuff you'd want blowing off unsheeted wagons and getting into passengers' eyes at stations, axlebox bearings, engines, etc.

[Phil Bullock]

17 hours ago, Rivercider said:

Well yes hoppers could obviously only be loaded to places equipped to handle them. My point was that while the vacuum braked wagon load network still existed until 1984 it would be common to see 21t hoppers singly or in small groups mixed in with other traffic moving between marshalling yards. In the Bristol Division of the WR 21t hoppers went to coal depots at Droitwich, Cheltenham, Stonehouse Road, Filton, Wapping Wharf, Exmouth Junction, Taunton, possibly Drinnick Mill, and Yeovil Junction which was a later addition. 

After 1984 I believe that 21t hoppers remaining in revenue earning service would only be moved in block trains, there being no other way of moving them. Perhaps I did not explain it very well.

 

cheers

Morning!

 

I used to see the Droitwich flow most days in the early 70s … half a dozen 21 tonners behind a Hymek to Underwoods depot. Do you know where that flow originated? 
 

Happy days! 

[BMacdermott]

10 hours ago, 45125 said:

Grain, bauxite and abrasive material for grinding wheels was also a use for 21ton hoppers.

 

Thanks 45125

 

When the wagons were announced, I took a look at the running number series in Don Rowland's book, British Railway Wagons.

 

The 50 vehicles built at Shildon in 1955 to Lot 2954 were numbered B419200-419249. The margin notes read: This lot adapted for grain traffic between Millwall and Welwyn Garden City. (For those not aware, the city had a rail-connected Shredded Wheat factory.)

 

David Larkin in his book Wagons of the British Railways Middle Era, 1955-1961, states: Lot 2954 grain hoppers had welded bodywork with a fixed tarpaulin bar to make a peaked roof.

 

I was totally unaware of these vehicles. Does anyone know of any photos? And why were 'special wagons' needed?

 

Maybe 'a variant' that Accurascale might consider?

 

Brian

 

 

[Mophead45143]

12 hours ago, zr2498 said:

Thanks for this information. Clearly the Accurascale hoppers will be later diagrams than the Hornby model. I have some diagram 100 and 1/141 Hornby models and yes, they look identical apart from the markings.

The same Hornby model also extends to HTO markings. I assume that some of the 1/141s just had their markings modified before the more extensive structural modifications in the late 60s?

I would say the Hornby model looks reasonable. Not to the same standard as the Accurascale offerings, but a mix with Acc's pre Tops 21t hoppers would seem to be OK.

 

The Hornby model is based on the early LNER design, also built by BR, but many survived into the 1970's like this without being re-bodied. They are quite different to the Accurascale wagons, having riveted body's and a different underframe for starters.

 

While the Hornby model looks good at first glance, it's worth noting that the handrail configuration on the end of the models is incorrect, at least it certainly is for later wagons of this type (not sure about earlier LNER ones). Also, all four of the models that I bought are TERRIBLE runners, with the wheels fouling on the hopper doors and brake gear. I've had to hack away at them and they still run as if the handbrakes have been pinned!!!

 

HTO markings didn't appear until the mid 70's under the TOPS system, so the Hornby models with these markings represent the last survivors before being re-bodied, or more likely scrapped by that point in time.

 

You absolutely could mix them with the Accurascale hoppers. Typical formations from the 1950's - early 1970's would see the old riveted bodied wagons mixed with the five stanchion welded body types. From the early 1970's onwards, the re-bodied wagons with just two stanchions would also be mixed into rakes as they started to emerge from the works.

 

A 1970's loose coupled coal train, particularly in the east midlands, could have an enormous mix of wagon types from 16t minerals, 21t mineral variants, 21t hopper variants, 24.5t minerals and 24.5t hoppers.

 

Cameron

 

[45125]

39 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

Sand is bad enough, but this doesn't sound like the sort of stuff you'd want blowing off unsheeted wagons and getting into passengers' eyes at stations, axlebox bearings, engines, etc.

These wagons all had tarpaulin bars fitted. the abrasive material was a regular flow from Hull to Stafford, with at least twenty wagons so modified, some with oil boxes other with roller bearings and all were piped. The tarp was only removed for loading. The tarp was branded ELECTRO FURNACE PRODUCTS HULL, and was grey up to around 72 then the newer tarps light blue. The bauxite flow I saw was just on the docks, but they may have been more.

 

 

Al Taylor 

 

Edited May 26 by 45125

[Enterprisingwestern]

 

Apologies for going slightly off topic, but as none AS models have already been discussed, I'm assuming the old K's kit is an original LNER dia 100 wagon?

 

Mike.