Liverpool to Manchester new route announced May 24

[melmerby]

2 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

Not what the thread is about though.

 

 

Jason

True, but could be part of re-instating an upgrade of the railways lost when the HS2 plans north of Handsacre were scrapped.

Andy Burnham was keen on getting a link to replace HS2 along with now deposed WM Mayor Andy Street

I wonder whether the new Labour WM mayor will be equally in favour, although his transport manifesto seems to be more about taking over control of the local buses?

 

Wasn't a link between Liverpool & Manchester originally on the HS plans?

 

 

[Reorte]

Just what's the point of this? Unless you suffer from really chronic impatience it doesn't take too long to get between Manchester and Liverpool already.

[Legend]

40 minutes ago, Reorte said:

Just what's the point of this? Unless you suffer from really chronic impatience it doesn't take too long to get between Manchester and Liverpool already.

 
Absolutely . Just another pie in the sky scheme costing billions 

[Jim Martin]

 

43 minutes ago, Reorte said:

Just what's the point of this? Unless you suffer from really chronic impatience it doesn't take too long to get between Manchester and Liverpool already.

Why build the Elizabeth Line when the Central Line already exists? Why does any country build new high-speed lines when they already have perfectly serviceable national rail networks?

[woodenhead]

46 minutes ago, Reorte said:

Just what's the point of this? Unless you suffer from really chronic impatience it doesn't take too long to get between Manchester and Liverpool already.

It's part of a general improvement in trans Pennine travel - to create a linear conurbation stretching from Liverpool to Leeds, the idea of a hop on / hop off lifestyle - work in Liverpool, party in Manchester, live in Leeds for example.

 

I'll probably not live to see it's culmination but I like the idea of joining the principle cities of the north - though Sheffield might feel a tad left out again.

[Reorte]

50 minutes ago, Jim Martin said:

 

Why build the Elizabeth Line when the Central Line already exists? Why does any country build new high-speed lines when they already have perfectly serviceable national rail networks?

A good question! I've never heard an answer that doesn't make me roll my eyes...

[jpendle]

22 hours ago, stivesnick said:

Cost is £17bn

If that money is really available spend it on getting rid of the two track bottleneck between Piccadilly and Deansgate.

And add more through platforms at Piccadilly while they’re at it.

 

But of course it doesn’t have the glamour factor does it.

 

John P

[woodenhead]

1 hour ago, jpendle said:

If that money is really available spend it on getting rid of the two track bottleneck between Piccadilly and Deansgate.

And add more through platforms at Piccadilly while they’re at it.

 

But of course it doesn’t have the glamour factor does it.

 

John P

Wouldn't solve the issue for a Trans Pennine route though.

 

Chat Moss will be used for more freight as Port Salford comes on stream which would go against any plans for a higher speed passenger service and I think the bogginess of the area will preclude higher speeds even without the freight.  The CLC isn't suitable for higher speed either though it does need electrification.

 

Oxford Road needs rebuilding and Piccadilly needs more platforms and that's just for current traffic and to truly get benefit from the curve at Castlefield.  Noises were being made regarding this but the last discussion basically said expand Oxford Rd and leave Piccadilly with just the two through platforms, which feels like it is going to still be a bottleneck.

[stewartingram]

6 hours ago, Tom D said:

I seem to remember reading an article on one of the potential Terminus for Liverpool (HS2), being in the area between Kirkdale & Sandhills, at the time, it made a lot of sense, at least for the land availability, and utilising the existing rail network in the area. 

 

The downside to this option, was the distance away from the City centre.

That is an often quoted idea, but how many actually want to travel to the city centre to get a train.? (and the answer is I don't know). People generally don't live in a city centre; businesses aren't there either in many cases. Maybe a station away from the centre might work better (hang on, we have got a few Parkway stations already...).

[melmerby]

13 minutes ago, stewartingram said:

People generally don't live in a city centre;

More & more are living in city centres.

Have a look at all the new apartments being built in cities.

[KingEdwardII]

17 hours ago, Reorte said:

I've never heard an answer that doesn't make me roll my eyes...

Because people prefer faster journeys to slower ones. Simples.

 

I continue to be astonished at just how poor the rail journeys across northern England turn out to be.

 

Liverpool to Leeds. 71 miles. 103 minutes.

Liverpool to Manchester Airport. 36 miles. 69 minutes.

 

Let's compare with down south...

 

Winchester to Waterloo. 68 miles. 60 minutes.  And that's not a particularly fast line.

 

Peterborough to Kings Cross. 85 miles. 51 minutes.

Swindon to Paddington. 80 miles. 47 minutes.

 

...although I'll admit that connections to Heathrow Airport are dire from anywhere other than central London.

 

Yours, Mike.

[rodent279]

56 minutes ago, KingEdwardII said:

Because people prefer faster journeys to slower ones. Simples.

 

I continue to be astonished at just how poor the rail journeys across northern England turn out to be.

 

Liverpool to Leeds. 71 miles. 103 minutes.

Liverpool to Manchester Airport. 36 miles. 69 minutes.

 

Let's compare with down south...

 

Winchester to Waterloo. 68 miles. 60 minutes.  And that's not a particularly fast line.

 

Peterborough to Kings Cross. 85 miles. 51 minutes.

Swindon to Paddington. 80 miles. 47 minutes.

 

...although I'll admit that connections to Heathrow Airport are dire from anywhere other than central London.

 

Yours, Mike.

Agree, I would imagine (someone correct me please) that this is to provide extra capacity as well?

I'm all for upgrading & improving existing infrastructure, but there comes a limit to how many quarts can be squeezed out of that particular pint pot. 

[Michael Hodgson]

20 hours ago, melmerby said:

I wonder whether the new Labour WM mayor will be equally in favour, although his transport manifesto seems to be more about taking over control of the local buses?

 

When I used them, they were run by the council and still called Birmingham Corporation buses. 

That is, until they got the much more imaginative name, Woompety buses.

[woodenhead]

39 minutes ago, rodent279 said:

Agree, I would imagine (someone correct me please) that this is to provide extra capacity as well?

I'm all for upgrading & improving existing infrastructure, but there comes a limit to how many quarts can be squeezed out of that particular pint pot. 

I think the argument will go, the current routes are pretty busy and to add more trains going faster is a risk.

 

Chat Moss will see more freight, it is expected to be connected to Port Salford at some point and then intermodals will use it, potentially replacing the intermodal terminals at Trafford Park with it being a stoned throw away.  That will release capacity within the Oxford Rd corridor if it is no longer needed to host long liner trains that can and do foul both Oxford Road and Piccadilly at the same time if stopped.

 

The CLC is also quite busy, it hosts Northern, East Midlands and Trans Pennine services so squeezing in a faster Liverpool to Manchester (and beyond) is going to be challenging and is blighted by the current intermodal services at Trafford Park.

 

Neither of these routes offers a route to Manchester Airport without going through Manchester Piccadilly and with Piccadilly needing a capacity upgrade to cope with existing trains you can imagine it's not going to fare well with a new higher speed service between Liverpool and Leeds without some serious upgrading.  Victoria is busy with little set aside for loitering and reversing services, hence the need for trains to turn at Stalybridge and for the likes of Virgin and Lumo to be suggesting their open access services commence at Rochdale where they can building stabling capacity.  Before you ask about Red Bank - Network Rail and the TOCs decided long ago they did not need that area for any stabling of trains and the land was then sold off - it is currently being built over and will never be available again for stabling.

 

An additional passenger line from Liverpool direct to the airport and then to Manchester sounds like a good plan, it can use some existing railway land and potentially some of the HS2 in all but name plans for higher speed and capacity upgrades from the north of Birmingham to Crewe and potentially Manchester that would also call at the airport.  East of Manchester there will be another new route (yet to be decided I think) that will get the trains past Standedge an onto the currently being upgraded Marsden route to Leeds.

 

It all sounds so very planned, almost like there had been a plan to build new lines and upgrade but they dare not call it that.

[w124bob]

I've done Lime st to Piccadilly many a time in 30 minutes either via St Helens jnct or Central. The ECS of the last Glasgow Lime street returned to Longsight at about 22.30. Mind you it often then took an hour from Oxford road to LO!

[GordonC]

I'm curious what kind of route they have planned between Liverpool and Warrington. The route through Warrington would have to be the Low Level lines, but that goes pretty close to the River Mersey even if they flatten and redevelop the old soap factory site and the river is prone to flooding nearby.

 

The existing route from Lime Street to Ditton Junction looks like its timed for 15 minutes at the moment, so it would need to be an awful lot faster if they're talking about 25 minutes for Liverpool to Manchester even if thats non-stop. Or the Chat Moss route to get out of the Liverpool area could have a pair of new tracks added except around Broad Green station.

 

I thought they specified starting the new line at Lime Street too, but also mentioned improvements at Liverpool Central at the same time.

[woodenhead]

I doubt they will be doing anything related to this at Central unless some amazing plan for a new station, otherwise it's Lime Street to Ditton and then to Warringon.

 

Might be a bit floody, but they have the benefit of the line not being used for passenger services and the only timetabled stuff appears to be trips to and from Arpley.  That being the case they can go to town on building flood defences and lifting the track level at their leisure with little impact.

[gc4946]

The big difference between the mayors' scheme and HS2 is that an underground station will be built at Manchester Piccadilly.

I hope the underground alignment will be optimised on a SW-NE axis to allow a tunnelled extension north-east from Manchester for services to/from Yorkshire without reversal, unlike HS2's original plans, as well as catering for future HS2 services to the midlands and London https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5a82c410e5274a2e8ab593da/C320-AEC-RT-DPP-240-072620_HSM26_Key_Plan.pdf 

[woodenhead]

@gc4946 Also a nice underground station with tunnels will probably also mean they don't have to isolate the Ashton Metrolink from the rest of the network for several years with it's atttendant costs plus misery for it's users (think Man City / Co-op Live).

 

Of course they should also plan this with a HS2 type interface in mind if they do use the HS2b route to Crewe and then add on the route to Manchester which this new faster line from Liverpool should join onto.

 

It's complicated!

[Innerhome]

My understanding was that the Liverpool - Warrington Bank Quay - Airport - Piccadilly route was all part of Northern Powerhouse Rail and dubbed HS3 - with onward extension to Leeds - so this seems to be another re-announcement of something which was been planned 5+ years ago - then downgraded - and now (perhaps) re-instated - (where's the money coming from ?). 

I think the Elizabeth line is a similar length to HS3 - and now accounts for around 7% of passenger journeys in the UK - so more effectively linking up towns / cities on the M62 corridor would seem to make a lot of sense. The puzzle I have is that while the route may be fast you have to get to one of the few stations in the first place while the Elizabeth line has lots of stops.

The beauty of transport in the London area is the Oyster zone - with a simple fare structure : fare capping : and largely agnostic on the journey route taken. So it terms of a first step (well second as Andy Burnham has taken back control of the bus network) would be developing an Oyster type zone from Liverpool to Leeds which could be done fairly quickly whereas a new Liverpool Manchester line is years (decades ?) away  

[60B]

On 22/05/2024 at 17:42, The Stationmaster said:

Hope they're not going via Chat Moss - that could get very interesting!

I did have to question what year it was and if the first sod cutting was going to have a lot of top hats. 

[APOLLO]

2 hours ago, woodenhead said:

I doubt they will be doing anything related to this at Central unless some amazing plan for a new station, otherwise it's Lime Street to Ditton and then to Warringon.

 

Might be a bit floody, but they have the benefit of the line not being used for passenger services and the only timetabled stuff appears to be trips to and from Arpley.  That being the case they can go to town on building flood defences and lifting the track level at their leisure with little impact.

 

 Can't lift the track as it goes under the WCML at Bank Quay station. The River Mersey is tidal here. Add a storm / storm surge to a spring tide and - well, been there and done that (several times !!). Yes the railway floods here.

 

Anyway, Nowt will get built as,

 

A - It's north of Watford

B - The country is skint.

 

Brit15

 

 

 

 

[Michael Hodgson]

21 hours ago, stewartingram said:

That is an often quoted idea, but how many actually want to travel to the city centre to get a train.?

 

There aren't many people in Liverpool who want to go to Manchester.  Those that do are called Mancunians.

There aren't even fewer in Manchester who want to go to Liverpool.  Those that do are called Liverpudlians.

Of course once in a while there's a football match, but that's likely to be in Wembley, so what they really need is a High Speed Line to London.

[woodenhead]

9 minutes ago, APOLLO said:

 

 Can't lift the track as it goes under the WCML at Bank Quay station. The River Mersey is tidal here. Add a storm / storm surge to a spring tide and - well, been there and done that (several times !!). Yes the railway floods here.

 

Or they build a fly over for the WCML and lift the line clear of the flood plain.

 

Plenty of room for one.

[APOLLO]

6 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

Or they build a fly over for the WCML and lift the line clear of the flood plain.

 

Plenty of room for one.

 

But is there plenty of money !!!!

 

As a Wigan council tax payer (with a precept paid to the Mayor of Greater Manchester) I would object to any money going towards a Liverpool - Warrington - Manchester Airport (& onwards) high speed railway, especially as a couple of years ago Northern diverted Wigan's two direct Airport services to run Preston to Manchester via Bolton - no direct airport trains now serve Wigan.

 

This is just a vanity scheme.

 

Brit15