GWR pre-grouping liveries

[Mikkel]

8 hours ago, Miss Prism said:

 

The loco looks to be outside-framed, so is a 1016 class or a Buffalo. It seems to be domeless, with a 3-segment tank. The snag is that there is no record of any 1016 or Buffalo without a dome after about 1890.

 

 

Odd. The magazine (August 1908 edition) gives no further details, except a brief description of the Royals' exploits in the area.

 

[Miss Prism]

My mistake - the loco is, on further inspection, a 2021 class. (Which would explain the lack of a dome.)

 

Edited May 28 by Miss Prism

[Mikkel]

On 27/05/2024 at 19:10, Harlequin said:

There's an account in, "Schoolboy, Servant, GWR Apprentice: The memoirs of Alfred Plumley" that confirms a small detail of GWR uniform.

 

When he was first employed by the GWR as a lad porter at Worle in 1890 he says, "I was a sad disappointed lad that night, for I had opened my brown paper parcel [snip] to find that the contents were a soiled second-hand suit of corduroy and uniform cap."

 

Then a little while later, "I had been supplied with a new corduroy uniform now and I often wondered why it was so saturated with green dye when issued. If one rubbed a hand down it, the hand would be coloured and any white material that touched it would need to go into the wash-tub."

 

Porters were issued with green corduroy for a few years after it had been abandoned for other station staff.

 

 

Interesting, partly because of the secondhand use of uniforms, and partly because it seems to confirm that porters had green uniforms a long time after other grades changed to blue in 1863. Indeed, if Steve Daly's overview is correct the green lasted until post-1902 on porter's uniforms - so I and one or two others need to add some dark green uniforms to the station staff.

 

Below is the Hay & Straw section at Paddington in the September 1897 issue of GW Magazine, with what I assume is Corduroy vests and trousers in evidence. The caption states that "The traffic of the section has in later years considerably developed and is admirably managed."

 

 

 

Also in 1897 - August issue - shows more Corduroy, and illustrates a variety of headwear. This is the Salisbury staff, among whom "a happy spirit of unity and good-fellowship prevails" according to the GW Magazine.

 

 

Am reposting the postcard below as it shows the Corduroy well - but also other materials, see e.g. the buttoned-up fitness type with the barrow. It is Helston, said to be 1905, though I wonder if it is earlier.

 

 

 

The Corduory seems to have disappeared at some point before WW1. Below we are back with the less than ideal photo quality in the GW Magazine. This is the Newquay staff featured in the October 1902 issue (photo taken in July of that year). The uniforms do not look like Corduroy. Although it could be a matter of higher staff grades, or the season?

 

 

 

Edited May 29 by Mikkel

[David Bigcheeseplant]

An interesting article of James Chambelin who was station master at Maidenhead Boyne Hill which closed in 1870 it describes his uniform as invisible blue suit with red facings.

David

[Mikkel]

Invisible blue, is that a standard term? Interesting to hear of blue at this early date.

 

Does anyone have a better scan of the page below? It seems to be the "smoking gun" in terms of defining when the Corduroy was replaced with a new uniform.  As far as I can make out the page is dated 1902 or 1903, and decribes "NEW UNIFORM ON THE GREAT WESTERN RAILWAY". The photos shows the "old" and "new" style GWR uniforms (old on the left in both cases), but otherwise I can't read it. The page is not from the GW Magazine, not sure of its origin. I found it on Pinterest with no information, just a link to a now defunct NRM page.

 

 

[Compound2632]

On 27/05/2024 at 20:20, bécasse said:

It can also refer to white lead paint which was widely used by the railway, not least for painting carriage and van roofs, and I rather suspect that that is what is being referred to here.

 

Yes, as a white pigment - a complex lead carbonate. But 'lead colour' generally refers to a grey colour using white lead as its principal ingredient with an admixture of black. For instance, the term 'lead colour' is used on the information boards one sees in Gloucester Wagon Co official photos, where it clearly means grey; red wagons - using red lead as the basic pigment - were described as 'red'. In all cases the pigment was dissolved in linseed oil and other thinning/drying agents to make the paint, resulting in a gloss finish straight out of the paintshop.

[Mikkel]

Here's how the GWR stores dept described it. I was about to say that they didn't refer to lead as a colour - only a base - but 5712 below could in fact be read as "red lead colour" in its ready-mixed state.

 

The table is from GWRJ No. 43, summer 2002 and accompanies an article by John Lewis on GWR Stores Services and Vans. I posted it some years ago but it seems to have gone in the Great Image Loss.

 

The list was printed in July 1922. A stamp on the front, added later, says 28 April 1932 - indicating either that the list was still in use at that point, or that it had been archived for reference at that time.  The 1932 stamp is interesting in that it says "G.W.R. Swindon Chief Mechanical Engineer's Dept., Chemical Laboratories and Research [+ illegible word]." So the CME Dept had a chemical laboratory - I wonder where their files have gone!

 

 

Edited May 30 by Mikkel
Misc. corrections

[Compound2632]

2 hours ago, Mikkel said:

So the CME Dept had a chemical laboratory - I wonder where their files have gone!

 

Usual by the late nineteenth century, I think. Certainly the Midland had such a department. Activities certainly included analysing loco coal samples for calorific value (energy content) etc. I think analysis of lubricants was also carried out - this was a particular area of expertise of R.M. Deeley, who wrote a textbook on the subject jointly with his brother-in-law, Leonard Archbutt, who was the Midland's company chemist, retiring in 1923 after 42 years in the post.:

https://books.google.co.uk/books/about/Lubrication_and_Lubricants.html?id=mWYNAQAAIAAJ&redir_esc=y.

 

What I've not yet discovered is whether Archbutt was Deeley's wife's brother or his sister's husband.

 

 

[Embedded link to catalogue image of Midland Railway Study Centre item 13792.]

Edited May 30 by Compound2632

[Mikkel]

There is something special about reading correspondence like this, it brings out the personal dimension. Strange to think that this is 110 years old though, it doesn't look it - although my children would probably disagree!

 

There is a book here entitled "Early Railway Chemistry" which looks tempting, if a little costly: 

https://books.rsc.org/books/monograph/1790/Early-Railway-Chemistry-and-its-Legacy

 

And a paper here from the Institute of Railway studies on railway research including the evolution of chemistry on the railways:

https://steamindex.com/library/research.htm

 

The latter says:

 

"Where there was steelmaking or steel founding on railway premises, the processes required the continuous attendance of chemists on shift.[...]

 

Starting from almost nothing in the applied sciences the railway chemists had by 1914 constructed a very considerable edifice of scientific and technical work to assist the operation of the railways; almost everything achieved was due to the personal initiatives of the various Chief Chemists in response to appeals for help. 

 

Paint however was rather different. It was a "chemical" in which different constituents served different purposes; every constituent was a subject for study and investigation in order to achieve, on locomotives, rolling stock, stations and bridges, paint of the right colour (exactly the right colour for locomotives and coaches) which was economical to apply, long lasting, hardened quickly, was resistant to weather, smoke and cleaning solutions and was also, of course, cheap. Chemists have always specialised in the study of paint and its application and cleaning. In the pre-grouping days every laboratory would have on the roof or near by paint test exposure panels of different colours oriented at 45 degrees to the heavens. In the commercial development of paints for use on the railway it is questionable whether the key figure has been the paint manufacturer or the railway chemist, a situation which continued for many years.

 

But were the chemists engaged in "research"? Generally they were not. The great bulk of the work was routine, carrying out the same analysis by the same methods every day. Much of the classification of goods could be done on the basis of previous experience or of established "case law" and a good proportion of the work on "damaged goods" involved informed observation and physical sorting of the contaminated from the unharmed, usually by junior assistants. New problems would call for new methods and innovative techniques; most chemists kept well in touch with developments in the science and were respected and well regarded by their professional colleagues in other industries. Nevertheless very little of the daily work could be classed as research; for that it was necessary to wait until after the conclusion of the first world war - things then began to be difficult for the railways."

 

The same paper has a list of the chemistry depts on various railways. The GWR opened their chemistry laboratory at Swindon in 1882, the first chemist was one F.W. Harris.

 

 

Edited May 30 by Mikkel

[Compound2632]

14 minutes ago, Mikkel said:

And a paper here from the Institute of Railway studies on railway research including the evolution of chemistry on the railways:

https://steamindex.com/library/research.htm

 

That is, I believe, wrong in suggesting Leonard Archbutt (1858 - 1935) was son-in-law to R.M. Deeley (1855 - 1944). Among other factors, as far as I can determine, Deeley was unmarried. This casts no light on that question but a bit more on Archbutt's professional life:

 

[Embedded link to RSC obituary notices.]

 

Thermodynamics of the automatic vacuum brake, eh?

 

Apologies for thread drift.

[billbedford]

On 29/05/2024 at 19:28, Mikkel said:

Invisible blue, is that a standard term? Interesting to hear of blue at this early date.

 

 

Invisible blue means almost black, akin to invisible engine green. 

[richbrummitt]

On 29/05/2024 at 20:28, Mikkel said:

Invisible blue, is that a standard term? Interesting to hear of blue at this early date.

 

Does anyone have a better scan of the page below? It seems to be the "smoking gun" in terms of defining when the Corduroy was replaced with a new uniform.  As far as I can make out the page is dated 1902 or 1903, and decribes "NEW UNIFORM ON THE GREAT WESTERN RAILWAY". The photos shows the "old" and "new" style GWR uniforms (old on the left in both cases), but otherwise I can't read it. The page is not from the GW Magazine, not sure of its origin. I found it on Pinterest with no information, just a link to a now defunct NRM page.

 

 

I think the first column is preamble and waffle. The interesting part to us is the second column. Best guess starting a few lines down 

 

“The serge is made in different thicknesses according to the class of uniform; that used for the porters uniforms being, of course, the thickest and for porters engaged in heavy work, such as loading and unloading goods wagons, etc., strong canvas aprons have been provided. 

 

The grades to which the new style of uniform have been given ? porters, ticket collectors, signalmen and guards. Station masters and inspectors uniforms have not been altered, though they now wear the new style which the company has adopted as it’s standard. As will been seen from the accompanying photographs this has an overlapping ? (crown, maybe) and gives far greater protection ? the head ? the old pattern. 

 

The first pair of photographs on this page strikingly illustrate the change effected by the Great Western Railway Company in their porters’ uniforms. In place of the heavy and ? smelling corduroy jacket and trousers the porter is clad in a serge jacket somewhat resembling that used by the London police during the summer months. It has a big collar and two large breast pockets…”

 

I’m struggling to make every word of the rest. There is some description of the change to the porters’ hats and it tells us the right hand picture shows the change to the passenger guards uniform. 

Edited May 31 by richbrummitt

[Mikkel]

 

14 minutes ago, billbedford said:

Invisible blue means almost black, akin to invisible engine green. 

 

Aha, like the blue used on 1900s Ford Ts (which I happen to be looking into at the moment). 

 

 

8 minutes ago, richbrummitt said:

I think the first column is preamble and waffle. The interesting part to us is the second column. Best guess starting a few lines down 

 

“The serge is made in different thicknesses according to the class of uniform; that used for the porters uniforms being, of course, the thickest and for porters engaged in heavy work, such as loading and unloading goods wagons, etc., strong canvas aprons have been provided. 

 

The grades to which the new style of uniform have been given ? porters, ticket collectors, signalmen and guards. Station masters and inspectors uniforms have not been altered, though they now wear the new style which the company has adopted as it’s standard. As will been seen from the accompanying photographs this has an overlapping ? (crown, maybe) and offers far greater protection than the head ? the old pattern. 

 

The first pair of photographs on this page strikingly illustrate the change effected by the Great Western Railway Company in their porters’ uniforms. In place of the heavy and ? smelling corduroy jacket and trousers the porter is clad in a serge jacket somewhat resembling that used by the London police during the summer months. It has a big collar and two large breast pockets…”

 

I’m struggling to make every word of the rest. There is some description of the change to the porters’ hats and it tells us the right hand picture shows the change to the passenger guards uniform. 

 

Excellent Rich, thanks very much. I don't know how you managed to read that!

 

So higher grades - station masters and inspectors - alreadyhad the serge, which seems to fit period photos. And with this 1902/3 change the other grades got it too. And the timing seems to coincide with the possible change of porter's uniform colour from green to blue.

 

[Compound2632]

22 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

What I've not yet discovered is whether Archbutt was Deeley's wife's brother or his sister's husband.

 

To fail to tie up this off-topic loose end: I asked someone I thought would know, but he didn't. 

[Nick Holliday]

22 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Usual by the late nineteenth century, I think. Certainly the Midland had such a department. Activities certainly included analysing loco coal samples for calorific value (energy content) etc. I think analysis of lubricants was also carried out - this was a particular area of expertise of R.M. Deeley, who wrote a textbook on the subject jointly with his brother-in-law, Leonard Archbutt, who was the Midland's company chemist, retiring in 1923 after 42 years in the post.:

https://books.google.co.uk/books/about/Lubrication_and_Lubricants.html?id=mWYNAQAAIAAJ&redir_esc=y.

 

What I've not yet discovered is whether Archbutt was Deeley's wife's brother or his sister's husband.

 

According to Steam Index https://steamindex.com/people/scientists.htm Archbutt was married to Deeley’s daughter, although it seems he was only three years younger than his father-in-law!

Regarding a comment that @Mikkel made about Ford Blue, I have just learnt, from a recent Archive Magazine article, that the Ford Ts built in England were produced in blue in 1912, green with black mudguards in 1913, and would have been chocolate brown in 1914, until Henry Ford decreed that future production would be black.

[Compound2632]

9 minutes ago, Nick Holliday said:

According to Steam Index https://steamindex.com/people/scientists.htm Archbutt was married to Deeley’s daughter, although it seems he was only three years younger than his father-in-law!

 

I had seen that. Whilst it is not impossible given the marriage ethics of the Victorian age, that source goes on to imply that Archbutt may have owed his position to the relationship - a calumny that can surely be ruled out by the date of his appointment. Deeley became a pupil of S.W. Johnson in 1875 and head of the Testing Department at Derby in 1890 [Grace's Guide], a position which would no doubt have brought him into regular contact with the Chief Chemist, but in 1881 he would (a) not have been sufficiently senior to have influence in the appointment of the company's Chemist and (b) way too young to have a marriageable daughter! 

[Happy Hippo]

On 26/05/2024 at 15:37, Mikkel said:

Signalman's uniform, May 1910

The staff sections of the GW Magazine provides some interesting views of GWR uniforms over the years. Here is relief signalman E. Richards depicted in the May 1910 issue. I wonder what the stripes signify in this case?

 

The occasion of the photo is as follows:

 

"A gathering of the staff took place recently to present Mr. E. Richards, relief signalman, who has retired after 46 years ’ service, with an armchair.  Mr. A. S. Crouch (stationmaster) presided, and in making the presentation referred to the high esteem in which the recipient was held by all. Messrs. Bastard, Ingram, and Randall also spoke. Born in 1844, Mr. Richards entered the service of the Bristol & Exeter Railway at Leigh Wood Crossing in July, 1864, after which he was removed to Silk Mill and subsequently to Allerford Siding, and came to Highbridge in 1869. At that time all signals and points were worked by hand outdoors, whereas now there are two signal-boxes.  He was the first signalman on the Bristol & Exeter Railway to receive an additional shilling per week for gaining a knowledge of the single needle telegraph. He was a signalman during the whole of his 46 years’ service, and has the record of not having forfeited a single portion of his bonus. We wish Mr. Richards a long and happy retirement."
 

 

I think the stripes indicate he had a lot of distant relatives.

 

I'll get my coat.

 

Seriously, they could be good conduct stripes which was common in the armed forces at that time.

[57xx]

On 30/05/2024 at 07:03, Compound2632 said:

Yes, as a white pigment - a complex lead carbonate. But 'lead colour' generally refers to a grey colour using white lead as its principal ingredient with an admixture of black. For instance, the term 'lead colour' is used on the information boards one sees in Gloucester Wagon Co official photos, where it clearly means grey; red wagons - using red lead as the basic pigment - were described as 'red'. In all cases the pigment was dissolved in linseed oil and other thinning/drying agents to make the paint, resulting in a gloss finish straight out of the paintshop.

 

I'm in agreement with Stephen here, whenever I have seen references to "lead colour" it means grey e.g. the colour of lead ( not any lead compound). "Red lead" is the colloquial name for anti-corrosion primer paint which uses lead tetroxide in it's formula, which is itself red, hence the name, and of course, lead tetroxide is also known as red lead. Similarly "lead white" usually refers to white* paint made using lead carbonate (white lead) as the pigment.

*more off-white than white!

 

Quote

Red lead, filling, then stained and rubbed, lead colour, ground colour, lake, varnish lake.

 

So above, "Red lead" would refer to lead tetroxide primer, "lead colour" is most likely to be a grey colour, otherwise why use two different descriptions? (No idea what ground colour is!? Maybe a brown?)

 

The reference to "steel grey" in Mikkel's stores form is interesting. Is that the official designation for GWR freight grey? It's also of interest to see two formulations, with bases of either lead carbonate or zinc oxide. Usually, the former gave way to the latter in company's paint schedules (certainly as far as the MR/LMS were concerned).

[Harlequin]

52 minutes ago, 57xx said:

The reference to "steel grey" in Mikkel's stores form is interesting. Is that the official designation for GWR freight grey? It's also of interest to see two formulations, with bases of either lead carbonate or zinc oxide. Usually, the former gave way to the latter in company's paint schedules (certainly as far as the MR/LMS were concerned).

The two "Steel grey " paints are annotated "No.6". They are Standard Tint No. 6 used for painting things like yard cranes and, at the other end of the scale, bridges like the Royal Albert Bridge. You can see the other Standard Tints listed on the same page, so the list seems to relate to the colours used by the Engineering Division to paint structures.

 

I don't think it has any relationship to "freight grey".

 

The GWR Paint committee tested various formulations of Steel Grey with the aim of reducing the lead content but if I remember correctly the zinc based version didn't perform as well as the lead version in certain situations and so both versions remained on the books.

 

The formulation of Standard Tint No.6 includes a small proportion of blue pigment  to make it a very slightly blue-tinged mid-grey.

 

This is all documented in the GWSG book, "Great Western Railway Structure Colours 1912-1947".

 

Edited May 31 by Harlequin

[Miss Prism]

34 minutes ago, Harlequin said:

I don't think it has any relationship to "freight grey".

 

I agree.

 

[57xx]

50 minutes ago, Harlequin said:

The two "Steel grey " paints are annotated "No.6". They are Standard Tint No. 6 used for painting things like yard cranes and, at the other end of the scale, bridges like the Royal Albert Bridge. You can see the other Standard Tints listed on the same page, so the list seems to relate to the colours used by the Engineering Division to paint structures.

 

I don't think it has any relationship to "freight grey".

 

The GWR Paint committee tested various formulations of Steel Grey with the aim of reducing the lead content but if I remember correctly the zinc based version didn't perform as well as the lead version in certain situations and so both versions remained on the books.

 

The formulation of Standard Tint No.6 includes a small proportion of blue pigment  to make it a very slightly blue-tinged mid-grey.

 

This is all documented in the GWSG book, "Great Western Railway Structure Colours 1912-1947".

 

 

Cheers for the concise clarification, Phil.

[Mikkel]

11 hours ago, Nick Holliday said:

Regarding a comment that @Mikkel made about Ford Blue, I have just learnt, from a recent Archive Magazine article, that the Ford Ts built in England were produced in blue in 1912, green with black mudguards in 1913, and would have been chocolate brown in 1914, until Henry Ford decreed that future production would be black.

 

Thanks Nick, very useful. I'm rebuilding an American Ford T into a British built 1912 one (in 1:76, that is!) and had caught onto the colours but not their model years. So blue it is!

 

Anyway, regarding the signalman's stripes:

 

On 26/05/2024 at 16:37, Mikkel said:

Signalman's uniform, May 1910

The staff sections of the GW Magazine provides some interesting views of GWR uniforms over the years. Here is relief signalman E. Richards depicted in the May 1910 issue. I wonder what the stripes signify in this case?

 

 

 

11 hours ago, Happy Hippo said:

I think the stripes indicate he had a lot of distant relatives.

 

I'll get my coat.

 

Seriously, they could be good conduct stripes which was common in the armed forces at that time.

 

Good point. I did a search in the GW Magazine which seems to confirm it (Edit: Or perhaps it simply implies length of service?):

 

GW Magazine, November 1905

"Signalman James Brookman, of Chippenham, has recently retired after the long period of service of 45 years. During the greater portion of his career he was employed at Chippenham, earning several stripes for long and efficient service. He was a general favourite, and carries with him the good wishes of the staff for a happy retired life.

 

It seems to go back to the early days, here is a quote from Reverend Shadwell's Reminiscences:

 

GW Magazine, September 1909

"I  can  remember  when  the points  at  Reading  were  worked  with  a  target locking  disc,  and  the  pointsman,  wearing  a  tall hat,  had  three  or  four  red  stripes  on  his  left  arm."

 

 

Edited May 31 by Mikkel

[Mikkel]

Sorry to go on about staff uniforms, but they are not well documented and I'm trying to make some general sense of it all. Someone like @alanbuttler of Modelu could have a field-day diversifying the product range here 🙂

 

On the left below is another signalman (G.H. Prowse), in the October 1897 issue of GW Magazine. The difference in style with the porters in pre-1902 Corduroy is obvious. He has no stripes. The badge on his arm is for achievement/training in the ambulance services. The photo depicts a London team  in a local ambulance services competition, a big thing at the time.

 

 

The photo below - from the August 1896 edition of GW Magazine - is interesting for many reasons, one of which is that it shows coats on top of the Corduroy, presumably issued for the colder seasons. I have been unable to identify the coach, can't find any 24xx numbers in Harris but perhaps it is Broad Gauge.

 

 

 

If it is correct that porter's Corduroy remained green until 1902, it would presumably have looked similar to the GNR vest seen in this Facebook post (open to all), which also has interesting text: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=966057558860220&set=a.125188079613843&type=3&ref

 

By contrast, below is the post-1902 blue serge with the soft caps, showing both jacket and coat. "GWR" on caps and collar.

 

 

 

More post-1902 serge. No date, but the poster is from the Inglis period (1903-1911). The jackets are slightly different here. We now know from the article above that different staff grades had different qualities/thickness of uniform at this time.

 

 

 

We haven't done Station Masters yet. There is an interesting shot in this Facebook post (accessible to all, and don't miss the accompanying text) which shows an elaborate Station Master's uniform.

 

The style of cap in that photo can also be seen below. It shows the formidable John Brewer, Station Master of Swindon from 1897 to 1909. There's a webpage about him here. Image embedded from that site.

 

 

 

With the 1902 change in uniform styles, Station Masters kept the stiff-sided cap but a wreath was introduced around the "GWR", as seen below. See gwr.org.uk for a good colour photo of the cap. 

 

 

Edited June 1 by Mikkel

[Compound2632]

44 minutes ago, Mikkel said:

this Facebook post (accessible to all, and don't miss the accompanying text)

 

Anthony Dawson has a great series on uniforms there. He focuses on the Premier Line, naturally enough; there was an excellent post on LNWR passenger guards, their green uniforms, and bandoliers - originally with solid silver fittings. Being heir to the first great main lines, the LNWR preserved features of uniform carried over from stagecoach days.

[Compound2632]

On 31/05/2024 at 10:12, Compound2632 said:

I had seen that. Whilst it is not impossible given the marriage ethics of the Victorian age, that source goes on to imply that Archbutt may have owed his position to the relationship - a calumny that can surely be ruled out by the date of his appointment. Deeley became a pupil of S.W. Johnson in 1875 and head of the Testing Department at Derby in 1890 [Grace's Guide], a position which would no doubt have brought him into regular contact with the Chief Chemist, but in 1881 he would (a) not have been sufficiently senior to have influence in the appointment of the company's Chemist and (b) way too young to have a marriageable daughter! 

 

To tie off this OT loose end, I am told that the censuses and other sources demonstrate that:

• R.M. Deeley was unmarried;
• R.M. Deeley's father was also called Richard Mountford Deeley, and he had other children, one of whom one might suppose Leonard Archbutt married, leading to the bother-in-law / son-in-law confusion; but
• Leonard Archbutt married Clara Peel in Sheffield in 1882; she was the daughter of a provision dealer.

So the idea that Deeley and Archbutt were related by marriage seems to have been exploded.