BRM June 2024 - Health Warning

[2mmMark]

Danny  Vanstraelen's letter in the June 24 BRM makes for interesting reading.  Just looking across now to my own workbench, it probably needs a hazchem label or several, judging by the variety of glues, solvents, fluxes and other assorted chemicals.

It's certainly a serious issue when one becomes sensitized to a chemical.  Iain Robinson wrote recently on his blog that he's now become sensitised to PVA. which I've always considered to be a rather benign product, being sold in large quantities as a kids glue. I know previously that Iain became sensitised to cyanoacrylate glues which he regularly used in his professional modelling activities.  Another modeller I know became sensitised to polyeurethane resins, which terminated his small resin casting cottage industry.

 

In my other hobby involving classic & vintage motorcycles, I now regularly wear protective vinyl mechanics gloves.  Perhaps this might be shutting the stable door a little too late, having merrily sloshed petrol, oil, greases and degreasers for the best part of 40 years but fortunately with no ill effects so far (although people who've enjoyed suffered my terrible jokes might beg to differ!).  For modelling, I wear the gloves from time to time but for really delicate work, they can be quite awkward.  So for our purposes, they're not the vinyl solution to any potential problems.

There is one thing in the correspondence that I'd disagree with in that modellers enamel paints have never been cellulose-based in my experience, which dates right back to back to two-bob Airfix kits in the 1960s.  Attempting to brush-paint a polystyrene kit with cellulose would not have been a happy experience...!  I do recall some aeromodellers using sprayed cellulose silver which worked well in simulating bare metal surfaces. I've done something similar myself, airbrushing Humbrol enamel thinned with cellulose thinners.

Perhaps there's been some confusion with the old Floquil range of paints, which were xylene-based. From what I've read, these were excellent paints but now off the market due to concerns about the formulation, which required xylene thinners.   There have been fatal accidents involving these types of paints.

I still have a fair old selection of Humbrol, Revell & Precision enamel-based tinlets with which I use the specific enamel thinners and for brush cleaning, the low-odour white spirit. My experience so far is that enamel & celluose finishes are much more robust than anything water based.  I also have a growing selection of Vallejo acrylics which are very convenient to use.

So yes, I think we do need to approach our use of chemicals with caution but my personal view is that to simply discard enamels out of hand is to lose a valuable option.    In the past, I've used Humbrol black gloss enamel to paint cast iron motorcycle cylinder barrels with great success. I don't think I'd try that with Vallejo. Horses for courses and all that.

Mark
 

 

 

Edited May 14 by 2mmMark

[John M Upton]

All sounds very OTT to me.  I have tried acryllics and water based paints, they were quite frankly utter rubbish.

 

I am sticking with enamels to the end of my days (mind you, even they are not as good as they used to be) as I reckon any potential damage has been done by now and the constant consumption of biscuits and chocolate over the last forty plus years has probably done far more damage to be honest.

 

Too much H&S scare mongering going on.

[Phil Parker]

On 14/05/2024 at 09:48, 2mmMark said:

There is one thing in the correspondence that I'd disagree with in that modellers enamel paints have never been cellulose-based in my experience, which dates right back to back to two-bob Airfix kits in the 1960s.

 

There is an editorial comment to that effect at the bottom of the letter.

 

Mind you, I seem to remember Iain Rice riding this hobbyhorse years ago, making the point he was moving over to acrylic paints. I can see the logic, but still prefer enamels. Acrylics do work, but I'm just a bit of a stick-in-the-mud.

[APOLLO]

Airfix kit and paint just delivered from Amazon.

 

 

Brit15

[Gilbert]

4 minutes ago, Phil Parker said:

 

There is an editorial comment to that effect at the bottom of the letter.

 

Mind you, I seem to remember Iain Rice riding this hobbyhorse years ago, making the point he was moving over to acrylic paints. I can see the logic, but still prefer enamels. Acrylics do work, but I'm just a bit of a stick-in-the-mud.

Acrylics also have particles which when sprayed are also a risk.

It's up to all of us the identify risks associated with our tools and materials, their probability and impact, and decide what mitigation (or not) we want to consider personally.

For myself I don't airbrush without a good booth (Benchvent in my case) and also use a mask when using spray cans in fresh air; and I use gloves when cleaning my airbrush...

I'm also particularly careful with my Warhammer enthused grandsons...sorry....

Chris H

[Gilbert]

1 minute ago, APOLLO said:

Airfix kit and paint just delivered from Amazon.

 

 

Brit15

Wrong address apparently....

[Gilbert]

13 minutes ago, Phil Parker said:

 

There is an editorial comment to that effect at the bottom of the letter.

 

Mind you, I seem to remember Iain Rice riding this hobbyhorse years ago, making the point he was moving over to acrylic paints. I can see the logic, but still prefer enamels. Acrylics do work, but I'm just a bit of a stick-in-the-mud.

I also prefer enamels - I do tutor airbrushing (for weathering) from time to time and in a teaching environment with beginners I need to know my airbrush won't clog if I leave it for 5-0 minutes while I sort out another problem...and a mistake can be hopefully more easily remedied than  with acrylics.....

[Gilbert]

5 minutes ago, Gilbert said:

Acrylics also have particles which when sprayed are also a risk.

It's up to all of us the identify risks associated with our tools and materials, their probability and impact, and decide what mitigation (or not) we want to consider personally.

For myself I don't airbrush without a good booth (Benchvent in my case) and also use a mask when using spray cans in fresh air; and I use gloves when cleaning my airbrush...

I'm also particularly careful with my Warhammer enthused grandsons...sorry....

Chris H

and no - I wouldn't use those masks indoors...

[2mmMark]

On 19/05/2024 at 20:15, Phil Parker said:

 

There is an editorial comment to that effect at the bottom of the letter.

 

Mind you, I seem to remember Iain Rice riding this hobbyhorse years ago, making the point he was moving over to acrylic paints. I can see the logic, but still prefer enamels. Acrylics do work, but I'm just a bit of a stick-in-the-mud.

The editorial comment could be read that Humbrol & Revell paints had changed from being cellulose based to enamel based.  What I think has happened, based on a completely unscientific sniff test is that Humbrol enamels appear to be using a less volatile spirit in their formulation.

I do vaguely recall a cellulose-based Humbrol tinlet product in the past but possibly that was for tissue covered flying models.



 

[bmthtrains - David]

It is always sensible to remind people of the risks involved in the chemicals and processes used in the hobby as there is often an overly relaxed ‘I bought it in the shop and am using it at home, so therefore it must be safe’ attitude when actually in industry those same processes are considered high risk and handled appropriately.
 

Far worse than sniffing enamel paint are those terrifying DIY laser cutters. I commented years ago on a thread on here advising that people really shouldn’t be cutting MDF and styrene in open framed laser cutters in their lounge with no extraction and got shot down for being some sort of woke H&S policeman. 

 

I would actually like to see safety being discussed more often in magazines and at shows as some of the things people do without thinking really are quite horrifying. Learning how to make things safely is surely an important part of the hobby, but if it is not talked about, how can people gain this knowledge? The old boy attitude of ‘I’ve been drinking thinners since 1972 and it’s never affected me’ just doesn’t cut it anymore.

 

David 

[2mmMark]

31 minutes ago, bmthtrains - David said:

It is always sensible to remind people of the risks involved in the chemicals and processes used in the hobby as there is often an overly relaxed ‘I bought it in the shop and am using it at home, so therefore it must be safe’ attitude when actually in industry those same processes are considered high risk and handled appropriately.
 

 

You make very good points David.  For the record, I'd like to state that I don't make a habit of sniffing enamels!  Just that the older tinlets have a noticeably more "white-spirit" odour. 

My firm view is that you have to respect tools, machinery & chemicals, while at the same time making sensible appropriate use of them. I was very fortunate to be taught woodwork & metalwork at school in the early 1970s, with supervised access to a wide range of hand & machine tools, along with soldering, brazing & metal casting.  Our teachers were very careful to explain the risks and how to mitigate them.  Transgressions were dealt with quite firmly!

I don't think that's taught to the same extent these days.

 

Edited May 22 by 2mmMark

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

If ever concerned on the materials front then reference to  N. Irving Sax 'Dangerous Properties of Industrial Materials'; does exactly what it says on the tin. Should be available in the UK via a reference library.

 

As mentioned in the first post, sensitisation to a substance is probably the primary risk to most hobbyists, and barrier methods and extraction will be effective in preventing this for the large majority.

 

But nothing can be guaranteed, and anecdotal evidence is unreliable.

I have for example seen a colleague react very seriously to ozone despite no previous known exposure, in an environment in which over 70 people then worked with no difficulties evident. The ozone concentration was so low that there was no effective measurement technique available at that time to determine the concentration.

Then there was another colleague who thought nothing of splashing around in Xylene and various other aromatic hydrocarbons all day long, for plentiful liquid on skin and vapour inhalation, and lived to 96, with no significant health troubles, and died quietly in his sleep assessed as 'frailty of old age' in other words a natural death.

 

[ruggedpeak]

The critical issue is ensuring younger people take suitable precautions as the photos above show, and we are aware enough of our bodies to pick up when something might not be good for us. We don't know what will make us ill, some smoke for years and are fine apart from yellow fingers and stinky breath, others die prematurely in an awful way.

 

However the cumulative effect can be important, as is exposure whilst bodies are still developing so we need to ensure youngsters are aware.

[Mikkel]

One area where I feel very much in the dark is modification of 3D printed products - i.e. cutting, sanding, filing and glueing them.

 

They differ a lot and as a consumer it's quite unclear what is what. You can ask the maker, but the reply does not necessarily make you wiser.

 

Peer reviewed articles on the health aspects of 3D printing focus on the printing process, but I have found nothing scientific on subsequent modification yet.

 

There seems to be some consensus that once cured they are mostly less harmful, but should I for example be sanding a 3D printed loco body in my living room? It seems to be a grey area at the moment.

 

Edited May 27 by Mikkel

[andyman7]

On 22/05/2024 at 07:23, 2mmMark said:

The editorial comment could be read that Humbrol & Revell paints had changed from being cellulose based to enamel based.  What I think has happened, based on a completely unscientific sniff test is that Humbrol enamels appear to be using a less volatile spirit in their formulation.

I do vaguely recall a cellulose-based Humbrol tinlet product in the past but possibly that was for tissue covered flying models.



 

Airfix and Humbrol enamels have never been cellulose based but as you say, there were cellulose dopes and paints produced for flying models. My father was a builder of flying models and I soon discovered that cellulose paint reacted with enamel paint...

[melmerby]

I was subjected to breathing in carbon tetrachloride & Trichloroethylene fumes when at work.

Far more dangerous than these small tinlets.

Both are now (rightly) banned.

[F-UnitMad]

A Health Warning that I read some years ago really made me laugh. It was talking about the importance of washing your hands after soldering, especially after handling leaded solder & flux paste.

The reason? So you wouldn't have toxic substances on your hands when eating or smoking.... 🤔🤔🙄🙄🙄😂😂😂

[melmerby]

I've looked at my tinlets of Humbrol enamel paints going back 50 years or so. (yes, surprisingly still usable)

The earliest ones claim to be non toxic, however those that are middle aged contain Cobalt Carboxylate and 2-Butanone (MEK) and urge caution.

Cobalt Carboxylate (a drying agent for oil & resin based paints) is carcinogenic.

The most recent ones are back to being non harmful.

[Ben B]

On 22/05/2024 at 07:46, bmthtrains - David said:

 

Far worse than sniffing enamel paint are those terrifying DIY laser cutters. I commented years ago on a thread on here advising that people really shouldn’t be cutting MDF and styrene in open framed laser cutters in their lounge with no extraction and got shot down for being some sort of woke H&S policeman. 

 

 

 

Agree entirely; I bought a laser cutter a while ago. Following my experiences as a school DT techie, I made sure I invested in a more expensive one which had a lid and a very powerful extractor system. 

[John Isherwood]

2 hours ago, melmerby said:

I was subjected to breathing in carbon tetrachloride & Trichloroethylene fumes when at work.

Far more dangerous than these small tinlets.

Both are now (rightly) banned.

 

In my early days as a draughtsman, we would clean our drawing boards (and hands) of ink spots with carbon tet.

 

We were all heavy smokers at that time, and I seem to recall that I later learned of some undesirable chemical compound resulting from inhaling carbon tet. fumes through a lighted ciggie.

 

CJI.

[Wheatley]

On 22/05/2024 at 08:15, 2mmMark said:

Our teachers were very careful to explain the risks and how to mitigate them.

Ours were careful to explain that, whilst carbon tetrachloride was very good for cleaning down lathes, it was very very important to make sure it went back in the Special Cupboard afterwards in case an HMI saw it and  tried to stop them using it again.

 

The same department made up their own sanding sealer from Evo-stick and cellulose thinners and kept it and the brush in a Maxwell House jar in the tool cupboard. 

 

I switched to acrylics a few years ago for anything that couldn't be painted outside using a rattle can as Mrs Wheatley is allergic to everything and I'm allergic to her complaining about the smell of enamels. I still use enamel for painting loco chassis and particularly  wheel rims but I've got used to acrylics for everything else, even dry brushing. 

[melmerby]

1 hour ago, cctransuk said:

In my early days as a draughtsman, we would clean our drawing boards (and hands) of ink spots with carbon tet.

I remember a household product for cleaning marks off clothes. called Dabitoff I think.

It was a bottle of carbon tet, with a sponge applicator.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

On 27/05/2024 at 21:08, cctransuk said:

I seem to recall that I later learned of some undesirable chemical compound resulting from inhaling carbon tet. fumes through a lighted ciggie.

And for any interested this should be regarded as applicable to all halogenated organic compounds, whether liquid, vapour or finely divided solid. 

[F-UnitMad]

On 27/05/2024 at 21:53, Wheatley said:

I switched to acrylics a few years ago for anything that couldn't be painted outside using a rattle can as Mrs Wheatley is allergic to everything and I'm allergic to her complaining about the smell of enamels. I still use enamel for painting loco chassis and particularly  wheel rims but I've got used to acrylics for everything else, even dry brushing. 

I'm in the same boat - my Mrs has even complained about the smell of acrylics!! 🙄🤦‍♂️

Would like to know how you've mastered dry-brushing with them, though? 🤷‍♂️👍

[Wheatley]

1 hour ago, F-UnitMad said:

 

Would like to know how you've mastered dry-brushing with them, though? 🤷‍♂️👍

"Mastered" is probably pushing it a bit ! 

 

Expect a much shorter working time per brushfull (seconds sometimes), re-wet and clean (wipe off)  the brush after every pass and be prepared for it to take much longer. Must admit I tend more towards washes as a result, it's do-able but it's a pain. 

 

You can get inhibitor to stop it going off quite so fast but I've not tried that yet.