RMweb Gold Corbs Posted May 12 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 12 Hi folks, Spent a good deal of yesterday trying to trace a fault on the layout. It's been running ok until now so this is very puzzling. Setup is: NCE 5 amp booster 3 districts with circuit breakers NCE powercabs and wifitrax for control On one of the districts (only one), there are 4 electrofrog points with frog juicers, and a return loop polarity switcher. The problem is that when a loco runs across 3 of the 4 points OR the return loop switching track, the district shorts out. Normally I would expect the frog juicer to kick in and switch the polarity on the frog/return section, but it seems that it's not firing. The weird thing is, that if I wiggle the dropper wires to one of the track feeds, it shorts out too. Previously we had a power problem where there weren't enough amps to get the frog juicers to work, but this has the 5 amp booster and doesn't explain the wire wiggling issue. On the trouble section, I even tried rewiring it all to try and get rid of any loose ends or defunct wires. Any ideas? We would be grateful for any help as it's infuriating. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
F-UnitMad Posted May 12 Share Posted May 12 3 hours ago, Corbs said: The weird thing is, that if I wiggle the dropper wires to one of the track feeds, it shorts out too. Wiggling a wire causes a short - that rings alarm bells to me!! Frog juicers can fail, of course, albeit rarely, like any component. I've had a Tam Valley momo juicer fail myself. Is it possible to observe the LEDs (I'm assuming your juicers have them?) as a piece of rolling stock is pushed slowly through the formation, checking both routes through each point one at a time, to see if they swap correctly? It doen't have to be a loco - metal wheels on anything will operate a frog juicer. As an aside, I'm surprised the Anti-Frog Juicer Brigade haven't arrived yet, to point out the error of your ways..... 🙄😁😉 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Corbs Posted May 12 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted May 12 It’s so strange, we checked the wiring in case one of the droppers was wired back to front but nope, all as it should be. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold ITG Posted May 12 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 12 I’d suggest you’ve missed something! I’ve done it myself. Whatever else may or may not be right or wrong with the frog juicer, if a dropper wire wiggle causes a short, let alone just a power failure, that’s an issue! Good luck with the search. Ian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Corbs Posted May 12 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted May 12 The really strange thing is that it was working fine before, but this fault has just appeared. I was looking to see if a rogue track pin or something had lodged itself somewhere, but not found anything. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
smokebox Posted May 12 Share Posted May 12 Possible a track joint has closed up with the warm weather? 1 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpendle Posted May 16 Share Posted May 16 On 12/05/2024 at 12:31, Corbs said: The really strange thing is that it was working fine before, but this fault has just appeared. I was looking to see if a rogue track pin or something had lodged itself somewhere, but not found anything. So you got a wire in the wrong place, BUT, it isn’t making contact, so no short. Wiggle it and you get a short. Remove that wire and do it again. John P 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Corbs Posted May 18 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted May 18 On 16/05/2024 at 23:56, jpendle said: So you got a wire in the wrong place, BUT, it isn’t making contact, so no short. Wiggle it and you get a short. Remove that wire and do it again. John P I did wonder that but if we unplug that whole section (the removable section has the bit of track with the wire wiggle issue), it still shorts out on the points. Have read somewhere about faulty boosters. If we're not getting the full 5 amps, could it be that the juicers aren't able to switch properly and are instead just shorting out? Is there any way of diagnosing whether we are getting 5 amps out of the booster? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
garethashenden Posted May 18 Share Posted May 18 What happens if you unplug the frog juicer? It should result in an unpowered frog and no shorts. I had one fail recently in the same manner you've described. Even moved it to a different turnout and the fault moved too. So in my case anyway its definitely the frog juicer at fault. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Mallard60022 Posted May 18 RMweb Premium Share Posted May 18 It isn't to do with something on the Loco or Stock with 'pickups' moving over several Juicers at the same time? I have no idea what I'm talking about but a friend has had some issues with this, but on Coaches with things for lighting on the axles? I have two 6 X out put Tam Valley Juicers on some complex X overs/Points all in the same section and close, as I am crap at wiring and they have been in place, no Booster for 8 years. I have no idea how to test one. PHIL Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Corbs Posted May 18 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted May 18 Realised it would probably help if I posted a picture of what this looks like. 3 tracks cross the removable section (in front of the door). The frogs circled in red are shorting out when trying to switch. The return loop polarity switching section (outlined in blue) also shorts out. I don't think the issue is the tracks on the removable section coming into contact with those either side as we tried it even with the removable section on its own, and it still happens. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold RFS Posted May 18 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 18 Do you have insulated rail joiners on all the frog rails? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Corbs Posted May 18 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted May 18 2 minutes ago, RFS said: Do you have insulated rail joiners on all the frog rails? Yes - this was all working 100% until the other day. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
number6 Posted May 18 Share Posted May 18 With all that soldered rail on the big pieces of copper clad. I’d be looking carefully at them for a possible reason. Is that copper clad double sided? I once slit one side but not the other and put a nail through it and caused a short. 1 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Phil Bullock Posted May 18 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 18 3 minutes ago, number6 said: With all that soldered rail on the big pieces of copper clad. I’d be looking carefully at them for a possible reason. Is that copper clad double sided? I once slit one side but not the other and put a nail through it and caused a short. You are not alone…. 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold RFS Posted May 18 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 18 These are clearly Electrofrog points but I can't see where the frog is completely isolated from the switch blades. If they're not, then the frog is getting power both from the frog juicer and by the blades contacting the stock rails which could be causing a conflict. I would suggest you disconnect the frog wire from the juicer, and then use a multi-meter to check the frog is completely isolated from all adjoining rails. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Corbs Posted May 27 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted May 27 On 12/05/2024 at 20:30, smokebox said: Possible a track joint has closed up with the warm weather? It was this! I checked all the fishplated joints but it was Chris who spotted that a switch rail had contacted with the adjacent rail on the point. It alllll makes sense now. What a palaver! Chris prised the rails apart and it's working once again. Thanks everyone for your help with problem-solving. 3 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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