A constructed MTK Class 41 locomotive came my way.

[Halvarras]

On 26/06/2024 at 19:43, teeinox said:

FUN WITH FANS

 

Holiday over, it’s back to work on the body, starting with the roof.  The MTK locomotive has some nice see-through grilles in the roof.  Trouble is, they really are see-through, allowing one to see the motor bogies underneath.  Kernow sell cooling group fans for a mere £3.50 each plus £4 postage.  You’ve got to be joking; I made my own!

 

But it does raise the issue of what should and shouldn’t be on the roof, because I suspect the MTK model is not right.  So, here is an annotated photo of a section of, I think, a Silver Fox resin roof:

 

 

I have marked each feature with a number, and ask the collective wisdom to advise me what it is.  Bear in mind, that I am modelling “Active” in its earliest state.  So:

 

Item 1:  There are two of these, and they look like the cooling group fans.

!tem 2:  What is this?  On the MTK model there are two (very) token mouldings for this.

Item 3:  What is this?  It doesn’t exist on the MTK model.

Item 4:  Just one of these.  I assume it is the exhaust for the train heating boiler.  On the MTK model it’s a grille, which might be wrong.  But is it?

 

And finally, another question.  On a Kernow publicity shot of Active in original condition, they show the battery boxes painted green.  Is this the case?

 

I hope for illumination!

 

Thanks, teeinox

 

Here is a view of the roof of my Silver Fox D600 (which I bought with headcode boxes to replace the MTK model, but changed my mind, then bought some ex-GW steam locos so modified it to suit!) I was in the fortunate position of having a selection of etched grilles to hand so replaced the lot - not 'see-through' though. What you correctly identify as the train heating boiler compartment vent was also incorrectly modelled as a grille by SF, this was replaced by a 10thou plasticard disc with slots cut into it (D800-12/66-70 also had this type of boiler compartment vent, lacking the louvre on one side above the nameplate) - one of those old-skool pencil compasses came in very handy for this! And a rat-tail file......I must get a new one of those.......!

The large round grille is of course the cooler group roof fan (these are slightly diagonally offset, as per the 'Western' Class 52); the small round one is the engine exhaust; and if I'm reading 'Book of the Warships' correctly the small rectangular port is the exhaust from the engine's Napier pressure charger (turbo). 

I found painting just the fan grille mesh next to impossible to do neatly so painted the rim black as well, but I've never been happy with it so I'll get the grey paint out at some point......

 

The SF D600, which runs on a Hornby ex-Lima Class 47 chassis - slightly shortened to get the bogie centres right, but in retrospect I'm not sure I should have bothered - has a smaller brother in D6315 (which I once had a cab ride in!)

The tiddler runs on a Bachmann Class 20 chassis fitted with MTK bogie sideframes as modified overlays, just because I had them and they looked better than the SF resin ones (still got some if anyone's still interested these days.....). Note that I have painted D600's battery boxes and D6315's boiler water tank (NOT fuel tank, which was in the roof) green, as this is how the real locomotives were painted upon delivery from NBL. Photos suggest Swindon Works maintained this treatment until D602 'Bulldog' was released from overhaul in December 1964, the first to be fitted with headcode boxes and with the battery boxes painted black - it appears all subsequent overhauls of D6xx and D63xx locos had black underframes, i.e. including all of those requiring disc-to-panel headcode conversions which commenced in early 1965.

 

On both models these features are scratchbuilt in plasticard (on top of the Class 20 battery boxes in D6315's case). In colour photos it proved impossible to be 100% certain whether the D6xx's battery box angled mounting frame was also green, so I left it green pending confirmation - this question arose during Kernow's research, they decided to paint it black and I'd agree - something else I'll change in due course! 

 

I hope this is useful.

[teeinox]

1 hour ago, Halvarras said:

 

Here is a view of the roof of my Silver Fox D600 (which I bought with headcode boxes to replace the MTK model, but changed my mind, then bought some ex-GW steam locos so modified it to suit!) I was in the fortunate position of having a selection of etched grilles to hand so replaced the lot - not 'see-through' though. What you correctly identify as the train heating boiler compartment vent was also incorrectly modelled as a grille by SF, this was replaced by a 10thou plasticard disc with slots cut into it (D800-12/66-70 also had this type of boiler compartment vent, lacking the louvre on one side above the nameplate) - one of those old-skool pencil compasses came in very handy for this! And a rat-tail file......I must get a new one of those.......!

The large round grille is of course the cooler group roof fan (these are slightly diagonally offset, as per the 'Western' Class 52); the small round one is the engine exhaust; and if I'm reading 'Book of the Warships' correctly the small rectangular port is the exhaust from the engine's Napier pressure charger (turbo). 

I found painting just the fan grille mesh next to impossible to do neatly so painted the rim black as well, but I've never been happy with it so I'll get the grey paint out at some point......

 

The SF D600, which runs on a Hornby ex-Lima Class 47 chassis - slightly shortened to get the bogie centres right, but in retrospect I'm not sure I should have bothered - has a smaller brother in D6315 (which I once had a cab ride in!)

The tiddler runs on a Bachmann Class 20 chassis fitted with MTK bogie sideframes as modified overlays, just because I had them and they looked better than the SF resin ones (still got some if anyone's still interested these days.....). Note that I have painted D600's battery boxes and D6315's boiler water tank (NOT fuel tank, which was in the roof) green, as this is how the real locomotives were painted upon delivery from NBL. Photos suggest Swindon Works maintained this treatment until D602 'Bulldog' was released from overhaul in December 1964, the first to be fitted with headcode boxes and with the battery boxes painted black - it appears all subsequent overhauls of D6xx and D63xx locos had black underframes, i.e. including all of those requiring disc-to-panel headcode conversions which commenced in early 1965.

 

On both models these features are scratchbuilt in plasticard (on top of the Class 20 battery boxes in D6315's case). In colour photos it proved impossible to be 100% certain whether the D6xx's battery box angled mounting frame was also green, so I left it green pending confirmation - this question arose during Kernow's research, they decided to paint it black and I'd agree - something else I'll change in due course! 

 

I hope this is useful.

Useful indeed, thank you so much!

 

It gives me quite a number of tasks.  One is to paint the engine exhaust black: not so easy since it is an appalling bit of moulding.  Then the there is the port for the turbocharger; totally missing.  And the train heating boiler port:  I would have to device something which will look "right" over the installed grille.  That may not be so easy.  As for the battery boxes, just hope my Railmatch loco green paint matches the old paint!

 

Still, at least I have installed the cab interiors, one with a driver installed.  The second man is not there: he must be "otherwise engaged".

 

Once again, thanks for the info.

 

teeinox

[John R Smith]

2 minutes ago, teeinox said:

The second man is not there: he must be "otherwise engaged".

 

He is probably trying to get the train heating boiler to work . . .

 

 

[teeinox]

COUPLING CONUNDRUM

 

Well, work continues, with the next big challenge being couplings.  The original ugly wire loop couplings had to go, though the leading end screw coupling was kept.  As for the trailing end, since most of the coaching stock is equipped with Hornby/Roco close couplers, it seemed a good idea to fit a close coupler, which meant fitting a NEM socket, too.  In addition, the coupling would be mounted on the body, not on the bogie: it just did not seem a good idea to put traction forces through the trailing bogie.  A kinetic coupling arrangement would have been ideal, but that turned out not to be feasible: the clearances and distances required were just not there.  So there had to be a simpler solution.

 

As Hornby/Roco couplers form a rigid bar coupling, the coupling has to swivel.  But, given the overhang of the body, the coupling pivot point needs to be as close to the bogie pivot point as possible or clearances start to become a problem.  That point turned out to be 27mm forward of the bogie pivot, which is not too bad.  In the event, an elaborate creation in Plasticard plus a butchered Hornby coupling drawbar to provide the NEM socket did the trick.  It took days to figure out and make!  So here she is, coupled to a Mainline BCK equipped with kinetic couplers and some particularly testing long shank buffers.  Nice and close, isn't it?

 

 

Of course, there had to be another test run to check everything out.  This time she managed to haul a GWR/WR standard formation of 8 coaches, and the sound proofing I put in the roof reduced the noise level from excruciating to merely noisy.  The coupling performed faultlessly.

 

2 months in, this is the end of the heavy engineering.  Now, as the photo shows, I need to turn to more cosmetic things like the paintwork, as well as detail like steps, pipework and  nameplates.

 

teeinox

Edited July 5 by teeinox

[John R Smith]

 

I admire your persistence, and the couplings look good.

 

Your prototype, D600 "Active", was only the second main line diesel that I saw, back in 1958. (The first was 10000, in black and silver, on the Midland main line at Kettering sometime before 1953). We used to go to watch the trains quite regularly on the South Devon main line at Cornwood or Ivybridge, and I remember that day we had the usual parade of magnificent GW steam locos, Castles, Halls, Granges and if we were lucky perhaps a King. Then, on the down line, with (I think) the Limited, came a train with no engine  - or so it seemed at first. Then we realised it was one of the new WR diesel-hydraulics which we had read about but not so far seen. We fell silent as it came past us with no gunshot exhaust or cloud of steam, just a subdued grumble from somewhere within.

 

This was the shape of things to come, and we already felt a sense of loss.

 

[Halvarras]

2 hours ago, John R Smith said:

 

I admire your persistence, and the couplings look good.

 

Your prototype, D600 "Active", was only the second main line diesel that I saw, back in 1958. (The first was 10000, in black and silver, on the Midland main line at Kettering sometime before 1953). We used to go to watch the trains quite regularly on the South Devon main line at Cornwood or Ivybridge, and I remember that day we had the usual parade of magnificent GW steam locos, Castles, Halls, Granges and if we were lucky perhaps a King. Then, on the down line, with (I think) the Limited, came a train with no engine  - or so it seemed at first. Then we realised it was one of the new WR diesel-hydraulics which we had read about but not so far seen. We fell silent as it came past us with no gunshot exhaust or cloud of steam, just a subdued grumble from somewhere within.

 

This was the shape of things to come, and we already felt a sense of loss.

 

 

And exactly 10 years later D600 looked quite a lot different from when you saw it - blue with big yellow noses and a similarly radical new BR emblem, and those ugly headcode boxes hung on the ends, none of which was foreseen in 1958 - and it was already in a scrapyard, which surely wasn't foreseen either!

 

Whereas you had witnessed the arrival of the diesel hydraulic era, I witnessed its end - having 'grown up' in Hydraulicland I felt a degree of loss myself after  watching Westerns D1013 + D1023 roaring through the darkness near Devices heading for London on the last leg of the final Western tour at 10.15pm on 26th February 1977, but in the cold light of day (and that night it had been VERY cold!) the event only marked the end of a transmission system, not an entire form of traction, so I'll concede that it wasn't quite the same! I still recall feeling a bit empty though, knowing that from then on the railway just wasn't going to be the same......

[railroadbill]

On 06/07/2024 at 20:00, Halvarras said:

 

And exactly 10 years later D600 looked quite a lot different from when you saw it - blue with big yellow noses and a similarly radical new BR emblem, and those ugly headcode boxes hung on the ends, none of which was foreseen in 1958 - and it was already in a scrapyard, which surely wasn't foreseen either!

 

Whereas you had witnessed the arrival of the diesel hydraulic era, I witnessed its end - having 'grown up' in Hydraulicland I felt a degree of loss myself after  watching Westerns D1013 + D1023 roaring through the darkness near Devices heading for London on the last leg of the final Western tour at 10.15pm on 26th February 1977, but in the cold light of day (and that night it had been VERY cold!) the event only marked the end of a transmission system, not an entire form of traction, so I'll concede that it wasn't quite the same! I still recall feeling a bit empty though, knowing that from then on the railway just wasn't going to be the same......

1015 back on   mainline on a railtour 6 July, so a bit of a Western revival. And very impressive it looked too!

 

The mtk models on this thread look good, some inspiring modelling there.

[roythebus1]

It may be possible to fit the Symoba coupling gear under there, I've just got their "starter pack", it's "interesting" fitting them to a Joueff Mk3 HST set with Hornby power car.

[railroadbill]

Aha! A Hornby HST with scale length Joueff Mk 3 coaches.  But coupling them? Calls for a new thread!

[roythebus1]

Yes, not sure whether to put it on th "collectable and vintage" or one of the "hints and tips" groups!

 

But anyone who wants NEM pockets on vintage stuff, have a look at the Symoba stuff, very simple glue-on 10x12mm square with a square peg that takes the NEM coupler box, adjustable height, easily set with their height gauge. 

[vikingsmb]

done a good job,

I got three silverfox warships 1 x blue and 2 green for my 1967 layout. All three are equipped with lima chassis which are my preference anyway for servicing and reliability purposes, I did have a issue with the bogies coming apart due to the glue used, soon fixed using tamaya extra thin cement- that stuff is very strong.

got 2 silverfox 22 both on Hornby 29 chassis (rewound motors) 1 in blue and 1 in green, got a spare body shell in half blue so after lima 73 chassis to get that sorted, and a unpainted shell which I haven't decided on livery yet. I know there are some for sale on ebay but they have Bachmann chassis and need them to reach all parts of layout.

[teeinox]

IT ALWAYS TAKES LONGER THAN YOU THINK

 

I thought doing the finishing touches on the locomotive would be an easy canter to the end.  Stupid boy!  The bufferbeam detail on the class 41 is really complicated.  It consists of the screw coupling, a back plate to said coupling, 6 hoses of various descriptions, the multiple-unit control cable (not prototypically attached unless in use, but since it was modelled, it has been left in-situ), and a pair of bizarre steps under the buffers.  Apparently, they were an afterthought, and they look it.  They also look as if they were unusable in practice, which possibly explains why they did not seem to have lasted long on the prototype.  But, since they were there for the period being modelled, they had to be made.

 

Of the 11 items involved, only 4 attach to the bufferbeam itself.  The other 7 are mounted underneath, so I had to fabricate a frame to support them.  Here is a photograph of the frame and its ironmongery, before painting:

 

 

It looks nothing, but it took a week’s work to construct this minature feast of plasticard.  All in all, there are 28 separate components; each step alone has 10 parts.  Those steps were a pig to do, and I am not sure I got the proportions right.  And you will be entertained to know that the air pipes are recycled from a Lima class 92.  I wasn’t sure if the back plate to the coupling existed at all, still less what its exact proportions were.  But one black and white photo showed it, and a colour photo suggested it was painted red, so red it is.  Being regularly whacked by the coupling, I can’t imagine that it stayed pristine or even red for long.  Here is a photo of the final effect:

 

 

 

Despite the time involved, it was worth it to make the front end look more as it should.  And if you look carefully, you can just see the driver in the cab; still don't know where the second man has disappeared to.

 

Which just leaves the windscreen wipers, affixing the nameplates and patching the paintwork. Railmatch 300 BR loco green, since you ask; not a perfect match in colour or sheen, so used sparingly.  Will I finish inside the 2-3 weeks remaining of my 3 months target time?  Don’t count on it.

 

teeinox

 

p.s.  The fact that the right-hand buffer looks higher than the left is because it is bent upward.  It's a distortion in the casting.  The added detail shows it up.  That's white metal casting for you; part of the period charm.

Edited July 21 by teeinox

[roythebus1]

Were those locos really fitted with train air brakes? i thought they were all withdrawn before the advent of lots of air-braked coaches.

 

Have. a look at the Symoba "kinetic" coupler box, it's 12x10x4 mm, quite small really and easy to fit. I've just bought a load from Peters Spares.

Edited July 22 by roythebus1

[teeinox]

20 hours ago, roythebus1 said:

Were those locos really fitted with train air brakes? i thought they were all withdrawn before the advent of lots of air-braked coaches.

 

Have. a look at the Symoba "kinetic" coupler box, it's 12x10x4 mm, quite small really and easy to fit. I've just bought a load from Peters Spares.

As far as the train is concerned, they were vacuum only when built and stayed that way.

 

My understanding is that the pipes were for connecting the air brakes of the locomotives together when they were working in multiple, which they could do with each other or with (some?) class 22s.  All pictures show them from their earliest days with these pipes.

 

teeinox

[teeinox]

FINISHING TOUCHES

 

Completing the final detailing went much quicker than expected: I have finished 2 weeks within my target time of 3 months.  Just as well; I was beginning to flag, running out of patience and enthusiasm.  So she is now renovated as much as she will ever be.  Rather than bore you with further details, let’s cut to some “Before” and “After” pictures.  First, a side view.  The main improvement, apart from getting her level, is the detail on the bogies and underframe which helps to “ground” the model.  The correct nameplates help, too.

 

 

Incidentally, can you spot the “dummy” wheel, the solution to the wheel-spin problem?  And then a three-quarters shot:

 

 

Again, added detail makes all the difference.  And as a finishing touch, she is graced with a headboard for the “Mayflower”, a train she occasionally hauled.  To see how she compares with something more modern, here is a picture of her with my Dapol class 22.

 

 

They look like good mates from the same NBL stable, as they were.  There is about 30 years between these models, but I think the class 41 rendition stands up well given its age.  I had fancied running them together, but the class 41 is just too power hungry and their speed profiles too dramatically different for this to work.  And the 8-coach pulling power she now has is perfectly adequate, so she can operate by herself.

 

Here is the financial picture:

     Purchase price from Elaines Trains:  £45.09

     Name plates from Shawplan:  £10

     Cab interiors from Kernow:  £11

     Stuff from stock like wire, glue, paint and plasticard: £0

     About 3 months of elbow grease: £0

TOTAL OUTLAY: just £66.09.  A bargain!

 

One question to ponder is how the original owner got on building this kit.  They were clearly skilled at low temperature soldering, and the body went well.  Even the roof is a good fit, apparently rarely the case.  And the spray painting was beautifully done.  But when it came to constructing and installing the motor bogies, things fell apart.  I can only imagine that they must have been deeply disappointed with the performance of what was probably an expensive kit on which they had lavished so much time and effort.  I do wonder if, with all its haulage problems, the locomotive ever seriously ran in service.  I just hope that if they can see her now, they would be happy with the renovation I have carried out.

 

Her “extended timeline after repair”, as some arty radio programme put it, will be a quiet one.  Mainly displayed on a shelf, or cossetted in the purple tissue paper and lovely blue box Elaines Trains kindly sent her in.  But there will be the occasional running session, with those brass wheels leaving their signature black residue on the track.

 

This is the most complicated and challenging renovation I have ever attempted.  There have been problems which I sometimes wondered whether I would actually manage to solve.  But stepping away and thinking things through, sometimes for days, came up with solutions for most.  It all came good in the end, and this lovely, charismatic MTK model has been rescued.  I am well pleased.

 

teeinox