Dapol OO 14XX and 517 Class 0-4-2Ts

[Miss Prism]

31 minutes ago, ChrisN said:

I am going by the spreadsheet that @Mol_PMB produced.

 

I haven't had much time to study that, but will get round tuit.

 

[Mol_PMB]

56 minutes ago, ChrisN said:

 

I am going by the spreadsheet that @Mol_PMB produced.  The 3D render looks like narrow tanks, but we shall see what is produced.

Sorry if there are errors in the spreadsheet. For clarity, with features like cabs and tanks, the spreadsheet indicates whether the locos received those at any time, it doesn’t imply they always had them.  
Unlike boilers, the RCTS book does bot give dates for tanks and cabs. 

[ChrisN]

5 minutes ago, Mol_PMB said:

Sorry if there are errors in the spreadsheet. For clarity, with features like cabs and tanks, the spreadsheet indicates whether the locos received those at any time, it doesn’t imply they always had them.  
Unlike boilers, the RCTS book does bot give dates for tanks and cabs. 

 

Thank you.  I thought I had all bases covered, but maybe I do not have.

[brumtb]

On 23/05/2024 at 12:27, Mol_PMB said:

 

 

 

And on the subject of aftermarket accessories, surely it's only a matter of time before someone offers a 3D printed replacement body like this?

About 40 years ago I built one to fit over an Airfix 14xx from the drawing in Russell's book. Sadly it no longer exists but I'm thinking I might be tempted, in due course, to have another go.

Tony

 

[Mr chapman]

On 23/05/2024 at 12:27, Mol_PMB said:

surely it's only a matter of time before someone offers a 3D printed replacement body like this?

What on earth is that? What would I Google to read more? 

[Compound2632]

2 hours ago, Mr chapman said:

What on earth is that? What would I Google to read more? 

 

More information earlier in this thread.

[Mol_PMB]

11 hours ago, Mr chapman said:

What on earth is that? What would I Google to read more? 

It’s a GWR 517 class loco with an autocoach. 
 

I think there were two of them (was it 833 and 533 - just going from memory here) that had a coach body built over them. They were later converted back to normal (whatever normal is for a 517!)

[The Johnster]

This was done at the time that the first locos were being auto-fitted to work with trailers.  The trailers were originally built to run with steam railmotors (SRMs), which appeared in the Edwardian era as a response to expanding urban electric tram routes, in conjunction with halts to serve suburbs, but were victims of their own success and struggled to manage the loads.  The next move was obvious, to use redacted locos such as 517s and Metros, and some 2021s among others, which were available and suitable, with the trailers.  The coach-bodied auto locos were a styling experiment with no practical advantages. 

 

The use of locos was of course highly successful and eventually led to the building of new locos specifically for auto work, the 48xx, then the 54/64xx, and finally the conversion of some 4575s in 1953.  This method of working lasted until the end of steam on the WR, with the trailers being joined by converted SRMs and purpose built new trailers, the last being the A38/9 built 1949/50.  There were compartment trailers rebuilt from Collett flat-ended stock in 1953.

Edited May 28 by The Johnster

[melmerby]

1 hour ago, The Johnster said:

This was done at the time that the first locos were being auto-fitted to work with trailers.  The trailers were originally built to run with steam railmotors (SRMs), which appeared in the Edwardian era as a response to expanding urban electric tram routes, in conjunction with halts to serve suburbs, but were victims of their own success and struggled to manage the loads.  The next move was obvious, to use redacted locos such as 517s and Metros, and some 2021s among others, which were available and suitable, with the trailers.  The coach-bodied auto locos were a styling experiment with no practical advantages. 

The one in the photo is No. 833 (The photo is in Lewis's GWR Trailers, below it is a picture of 2021 No. 2140 partly uncloaked. It has a square saddle tank that replaced the original and the all enclosed cab that was part of the cloaking.

After a few years it was rebulit as a conventional 2021 with a pannier tank.

[melmerby]

1 hour ago, The Johnster said:

purpose built new trailers, the last being the A38/9 built 1949/50. 

Hawksworth 64' A38 built 1951 (W220 - W 234)

Hawksworth 64' A43 built 1954 (W235 - W 244)

The first two A38s were rebuilt 1952 and later named Thrush (A39) & Wren (A40)

[Welchester]

18 minutes ago, melmerby said:

The one in the photo is No. 833 (The photo is in Lewis's GWR Trailers, below it is a picture of 2021 No. 2140 partly uncloaked. It has a square saddle tank that replaced the original and the all enclosed cab that was part of the cloaking.

After a few years it was rebulit as a conventional 2021 with a pannier tank.

 

The cab seems to be right at the end of the coach body, with no space for the bunker. Where was the coal kept?

[melmerby]

37 minutes ago, Welchester said:

 

The cab seems to be right at the end of the coach body, with no space for the bunker. Where was the coal kept?

Probably as much room as on the early straight back bunker.

[The Johnster]

I'm happy to be corrected on this, but I think the coach body 'evelope' shell included the bunker, which of course was unaltered (as was the rest of the loco beneath the cladding).  It was probabbly a good idea in winter (winters were a lot colder then) but must have been a bit warm for the crew in the summer.  Especially the fireman; on a 'sandwich' train as pictured he would be alone on the footplate for most of the duty.

 

On a GW mechanical auto train, the driver had only a regulator, which had enough slack in it to make it unusable over more that two trailers from the loco, and a brake setter, not even a proper vacuum brake valve, and a bell.  The fireman had to do his own work, plus see to the reverser and ejectors, which is why passed men were preferred for auto work.  The bottom passed fireman link at a shed with such work was usually the auto link.  Imagine a Cathays fireman on a 1950s 3-coach sandwich working a Coryton; 1 in 80 up to Heath Junction from Crwys Bridge out of Queen Street and timing was vital in the rush hour on this very busy section.  Or a Laira man working the 4-trailer sandwiches of the Plymouth Area autos, again with tight timings on the Saltash shuttle where main line traffic had to be kept out of the way of, and 70' trailers to boot.  Or Clifton Downs/Avonmouth/Severn Beach, another auto service with 4-trailer trains and a main line with traffic to be clear of, and steep banks.

 

Auto work has a bucolic image amongst modellers, no great rush, plenty of time to chew straw and chat, lovely summer evening, oo arrr, but the bulk of it was intense urban commuter work.  Check out the (in)famous Pontypridd-Cardiff Clarence Road 'St Fagan's Pullman', Abercynon's JB target, flat out for the full working day, crew relief at lunchtime, and a daily mileage that would not be unreasonable for a turn on a big main line tender engine, and Abercynon had similar jobs to Newport through Caerphilly as well.  The Tondu Valleys had some fearsome banks; the final quarter-mile to Nantymoel was at 1 in 27, which 4575s were expected to manage with 3 trailers on Saturdays.  Of course the flip side of this is that, coming down the valley, you just released the brake and gravitated.

[Welchester]

On 28/05/2024 at 18:06, melmerby said:

Probably as much room as on the early straight back bunker.

 

36 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

I'm happy to be corrected on this, but I think the coach body 'evelope' shell included the bunker, which of course was unaltered (as was the rest of the loco beneath the cladding). 

 

It must have been very difficult to load the bunker, and I can't see the coachwork remaining clean for long.

[The Johnster]

Yes indeed, probably done by hand with buckets and a good reason not to continue the experiment.  There were still plenty places where coaling was done in exactly that way though, perhaps with the aid of a gibbet hoist & pulley, and many of them would have been exactly the sort of backwaters that redacted 517s would have fetched up at.  There were plenty of cleaners around, thouhgh, even at small sheds. 

Edited May 29 by The Johnster

[The Johnster]

Just now, The Johnster said:

Yes indeed, probably done by hand with buckets and a good reason not to continue the experiment.  There were still plenty places where coaling was done in exactly that way though, perhaps with the aid of a gibbet hoist & pulley, and many of them would have been exactly the sort of backwaters that redacted 517s would have fetched up at.  There were plenty of cleaners around, though!

 

[tomparryharry]

Southall shed is a prime example of coaling via bucket & hoist; still used today. 

[Miss Prism]

On 23/05/2024 at 12:27, Mol_PMB said:

 

 

Can I assume the outer ends of the loco bodywork are black?

 

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, Miss Prism said:

 

 

Can I assume the outer ends of the loco bodywork are black?

 

 

Logic would dictate that they were the same as carriage ends?

[Mol_PMB]

15 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Logic would dictate that they were the same as carriage ends?

The ends the carriage it's paired with are chocolate and cream, and the loco is not that!

I agree black or chocolate are the realistic options.

What about the bufferbeams? Red like a loco or black like a coach?

 

[it's-er]

What an interesting, informative, and probably esoteric, thread this is!  Thank you for all the information above, and Mol_PMB’s photo - I’ve found it fascinating. 

 

John S

[Avimimus]

I'm still a bit confused about liveries. I've been looking at a lot of kit-built (or scratch built) 00 scale and 0 scale models of 517 class locomotives.

 

I've noticed that a lot of them have the water tanks and cab picked out with lining. However, the Dapol CAD renders show only banding on the boiler itself.

 

What was actually common prototypically? Is it just that the CAD renders are incomplete or was a simpler livery (with just bands on the boiler) common/correct?

[Miss Prism]

deleted - too simplistic

 

Edited July 18 by Miss Prism
message deleted

[Avimimus]

15 minutes ago, Miss Prism said:

In the form being depicted by Dapol, and with the exception of the brown locos, unlined is correct.

 

 

So you'd tentatively expect:

4S-517-002      524 Lined Chocolate - Closed Cab

...to have more lining than depicted in the CAD screen captures.

 

But expect:

4S-517-001      539 Lined G.W Green Red Frames - Open Cab

...to be unlined except for the boiler bands?

[Mol_PMB]

I few months ago I recall writing some posts in this thread looking at the liveries and details. Not all the CADs were consistent with the models listed but I’m pretty sure we concluded that the red-framed example should have had black frames.