Dapol OO 14XX and 517 Class 0-4-2Ts

[Compound2632]

1 minute ago, Schooner said:

Oh! Be still my beating heart!

 

He'd be taking it to bed with him.

[PMP99]

17 hours ago, David Bigcheeseplant said:

Is it worth splitting this thread in to one for the 14XX and another for the 517

Yes please! 

[Adi]

15 hours ago, BMacdermott said:

Hello everyone

 

Many congratulations to Dapol on these clearly popular announcements!

 

The 14xx was listed for the first time in The 00 Wishlist Poll 2022  (the last poll to run before we run again near Christmas this year).

 

It was in The Top 50, being the most-wanted GWR loco. The class came in at overall position 6th.

 

The 517 has been steadily climbing the echelons. It came into High Polling - at the lower end - in 2016 and remained there in 2018. (We didn't run in 2017.)

 

The class climbed higher in 2019 and was just four votes short of The Top 50 in 2022.

 

We wish Dapol every success with the projects.

 

Brian (on behalf of The 00 Poll Team)

Gwr 26xx would be great

[Hal Nail]

Perhaps they are keeping this as one thread until the frothing and wishlisting dies down. 

[Flying Pig]

9 minutes ago, Hal Nail said:

Perhaps they are keeping this as one thread until the frothing and wishlisting dies down. 

 

Nope, you've lost me there.  What is this concept you are trying to describe?

[Mikkel]

9 hours ago, rprodgers said:

Wouldn’t the 517 tank also be the first GW tank depicted in a pre-grouping build and livery?

 

I think so - certainly with a roundtopped firebox, as God intended them 🙂

 

 

1 hour ago, Miss Prism said:

green or brown

 

That's what I was wondering when I came across this:

 

https://railway-photography.smugmug.com/GWRSteam-1/18541864-GWR-Wolverhampton-186/Joseph-Armstrong-Standard-Goods-517-class/i-xbkzDQb/A

 

Further 517s here, the first three are nice studies:

 

https://railway-photography.smugmug.com/GWRSteam-1/18641897-GWR-Wolverhampton-Geo/George-Armstrong-GWR-517-Class-0-4-2T/i-hTV4Lm8

 

 

[GMKAT7]

Good morning folks,

 

If the 14/48xx and 517 run as well as my B4 and Terrier I shall be in for a couple.

 

A 517 in full pre-grouping mufti would be the 'man vegetables ', to quote another forum.

 

I need a cure for my Pannieritis, so these should do nicely.

Not in Panzergrau would be good too please.🙏

 

Cheers, Nigel.

[Edwardian]

1 hour ago, Craigw said:

"With the Dapol auto-coach and the Kernow railmotor (albeit, the latter is rather imperfect) spanning both the pre and post Grouping years, Rapido wagons, and better panniers and small prairies on the way, there has never been a better time to return to this subject and Dapol is to be congratulated. "

 

It should be pointed out that the better pannier is a 57XX and they are not a very common pre war branch loco at all. The 2021 and 850 in saddle tank and pannier form are far more common for branches.

 

Regards,

 

Craig W

 

True, but the typical set up of an 'Ashburton' is probably a single daily goods running onto the branch from a mainline yard, and while specific locos might be rostered for the service from time to time, these were not the branch engines in the way a dedicated passenger tank might be allocated to a branch sub-shed. In other words I feel a little leeway is possible with various likely candidates taking a turn and I don't see why a 5700 could not be one at the right point in time. 

 

For Ashburton, for instance, the first 4800 is, IIRC, March 1936. Before then its always 517s. Up to about 1934, again IIRC, a Newton Abbot 4400 Small Prairie could bring the goods service to and along the branch, which is, of course, a prototype announced; I did refer to both panniers and small prairies. Also up to c.1934, IIRC, there were Buffalos kicking around NA that might have served. That would be my preference if running a Pannier, but 5700s came to NA, IIRC at least by the mid-'thirties, so to my mind one could have a 4400 with the option of a new 5700 taking a turn, depending on when or where you set your scene.   

 

One has options, then, for the daily goods loco. Perfecting the choices available for them is not, I think, as crucial as the gap of the small branch passenger type, which Dapol's announcement should convincingly fill. A 517 or 4800 is the sine qua non for the inter-war Ashburton-type branch. As I say, I've waited nearly 50 years for this happy news, so I'm not at this point minded to  quibble about the supporting cast.

 

While we are celebrating the GWR branchline, the 4500s and B-Sets announced suggest a Kingsbridge-ilk branch.

[Harlequin]

41 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

 

True, but the typical set up of an 'Ashburton' is probably a single daily goods running onto the branch from a mainline yard, and while specific locos might be rostered for the service from time to time, these were not the branch engines in the way a dedicated passenger tank might be allocated to a branch sub-shed. In other words I feel a little leeway is possible with various likely candidates taking a turn and I don't see why a 5700 could not be one at the right point in time. 

 

For Ashburton, for instance, the first 4800 is, IIRC, March 1936. Before then its always 517s. Up to about 1934, again IIRC, a Newton Abbot 4400 Small Prairie could bring the goods service to and along the branch, which is, of course, a prototype announced; I did refer to both panniers and small prairies. Also up to c.1934, IIRC, there were Buffalos kicking around NA that might have served. That would be my preference if running a Pannier, but 5700s came to NA, IIRC at least by the mid-'thirties, so to my mind one could have a 4400 with the option of a new 5700 taking a turn, depending on when or where you set your scene.   

 

One has options, then, for the daily goods loco. Perfecting the choices available for them is not, I think, as crucial as the gap of the small branch passenger type, which Dapol's announcement should convincingly fill. A 517 or 4800 is the sine qua non for the inter-war Ashburton-type branch. As I say, I've waited nearly 50 years for this happy news, so I'm not at this point minded to  quibble about the supporting cast.

 

While we are celebrating the GWR branchline, the 4500s and B-Sets announced suggest a Kingsbridge-ilk branch.

 

Weight restrictions prevented the 57xx's being used on many branchlines until BR times when they were reclassified from Blue to Yellow Route availability.

 

Edit: I think the 4400's were always in the Yellow RA group.

 

Edited April 30 by Harlequin

[Hal Nail]

19 hours ago, Pteremy said:

in the BR versions for a particular timeframe (when some would have had top feeds and some not, whether black or green) I would need to know whether they will have top feeds or not

They have already done all of these in 7mm:

 

1405 black - top feed

1444 green early crest - top feed

1426 green late ceest - no top feed

5819 black - no top feed.

 

To do a black no topfeed, I bought the 58xx and added back the auto gear. For my late green I bought the early and swapped logos.

 

(they did swap the format round for the 2nd run)

[The Stationmaster]

6 minutes ago, Harlequin said:

 

Weight restrictions prevented the 57xx's being used on many branchlines until BR times when they were reclassified from Blue to Yellow.

 

And the Ashburton branch was in any case 'Uncoloured' although certain 'Yellow' engines were allowed to work over it by the immediate Post WW!! period.

Apart from anything else the branch was still worked in accordance with South Devon Railway Regulations which permitted one or two seemingly very unusual things to be done.  Back t little tank eb ngnes.

 

As an aside some years ago someone contacted all the GWR/WR modellers he knew of on RMweb to establish if there was any interest in an Aberdare and the possibility of commissioning one - the price was well beyond the resources of c.100 people.

[Pteremy]

20 hours ago, Captain Kernow said:

Top feeds can be very confusing. 

Some locos had them when photographed in (say) the late 1950s, but had lost it again a few years later, presumably due to receiving a replacement boiler. 

 

 

Quite so - and the reason for my interest. On the Exe Valley Line photographic evidence suggests that in the final years 1440 had no top feed 1957-59 but had one by 1960-61 (when it was transferred to Gloucester); 1451 had a top feed 1957-59 but had lost it by 1962-63; 1471 had no top feed 1959-August 1961 but then had by one late 1961-63. Whereas 1466 had a top feed 1959-63.

[franciswilliamwebb]

19 hours ago, David Bigcheeseplant said:

Is it worth splitting this thread in to one for the 14XX and another for the 517

 

I shall hold you personally responsible for any increased volume of  "have we any news on this yet?" posts 😉

[Hroth]

Although a round topped 517 is too early for me, at the price quoted its still a Rule 1 no-brainer!  I might even consider a 14xx in later trim...

[Schooner]

18 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

Back to little tank engines.

 

Tease.

[Schooner]

(Slightly) More seriously, one of my main takeaways over the past 24hrs is the volume of support for the early 517s. Might I be correct in thinking these are also likely to sell particularly well off the shelf, on aesthetics alone? The Peckett Effect.

 

Assuming their usual mechanism standards are maintained, Dapol have done well.

[JSpencer]

Now how I imagine a 517 making it all the way to the Kent coast???🙃

[BenL]

I wonder if Dapol are working from this pic of 4870 for their proposed version? If so, I'd suggest she's in GWR black wartime livery rather than green as Dapol propose: 

 

 

[Craigw]

18 minutes ago, Hroth said:

Although a round topped 517 is too early for me,  

 

You are obviously modelling too late a timeframe. Get with the program son :)

[Edwardian]

3 minutes ago, BenL said:

I wonder if Dapol are working from this pic of 4870 for their proposed version? If so, I'd suggest she's in GWR black wartime livery rather than green as Dapol propose: 

 

 

 

Always interesting to chart progress at Totnes. The Italianate pumping station tower is gone (it was still there in 1938), but  the footbridge roof is clinging on in part.

[wombatofludham]

1 hour ago, Harlequin said:

 

Weight restrictions prevented the 57xx's being used on many branchlines until BR times when they were reclassified from Blue to Yellow Route availability.

 

Edit: I think the 4400's were always in the Yellow RA group.

 

I must admit when involved with the "Dolgellau" layout to being surprised to hear that the 57xx were banned from the Ruabon to Barmouth route pre-1948 although the 28xx heavy goods locos were given dispensation to work the route (and apparently did) during the war. The 57xx must have been what we call in the Black Country "a Tunky Pig" carrying some weight spread over just three axles.  It does seem bizarre that the physically larger 43xx and "Aberdare" classes were regulars on the line but a dinky little tank was a no-no, but it goes to show the myriad factors to be considered in route availability.

[Edwardian]

28 minutes ago, Harlequin said:

 

Weight restrictions prevented the 57xx's being used on many branchlines until BR times when they were reclassified from Blue to Yellow Route availability.

 

Edit: I think the 4400's were always in the Yellow RA group.

 

 

Indeed, though many modellers seem to feel happy sending a variety of locos on goods trips along their little branchlines, including Collet and Dean tender 0-6-0s (apart from anything else, classes not really seen in Ashburton country in the thirties.  People naturally use what is available RTR. 

 

Nor do people feel constrained not to run GW diesel railcars down 'Ashburton' branches. 

 

I daresay many people will be using the Dapol non-corridor Mainline & City toplights out of their very limited prototype context and formations.

 

I was not advocating the use of 5700s on a branch line, but that is clearly something modellers may likely do on a branch layout and, if so, is perhaps no more egregious than the common practices I mention above. While I do think that honourable members have, thus, seized upon an irrelevance here, obviously I clearly regret ever including the word "panniers" in my off the cuff list of recent GWR releases/announcements and should have driven red-hot spikes into my eyes instead, as that would seem to be less painful!

 

Yes, back to little tank engines.

 

Personal preferences .... there is much to celebrate here. As the 517 is a key loco for me, I will certainly not stint on my choices.

 

My own choice for a mid-thirties 'Ashburton' would be a brace of 517s. Ashburton itself always seems to have had a couple earmarked to it at any given time to swop in and out. While I have often regretted the lack of a pre-war condition 4800, that is in the context of there being no RTR 517. Now there will be a RTR 517, frankly, I don't feel I need a 4800, but that is a personal preference. I will probably buy a 4800 in as-built condition, though, just because now there is one and that just makes me happy! For branch goods, my RTR choice would be the 4400. I don't have an 850 in pannier guise.

 

For pre-Grouping, I love there is a round-top firebox version with the straight-back Swindon bunker, because that is a fairly representative variant by the 1900s. It should be lined, I should have thought, whether red-framed or a pre-Great War black-framed version. Candidly, the prospect of any pre-Grouping condition 517 gives me such joy. 

 

The black frames perhaps more useful, but I'd take both.  I do have a mix of 4, 6 and 8 wheel carriages more or less suitable for branch work. They tend to be in the garter iteration of lined chocolate and cream, so, I am hovering around c.1907 as a setting, and my Kernow steamrailmotor, if I can bear the sight of those black centre doors and gigantic lamps, is a fit with that. Thus, a lined 517 with black frames would seem ideal.  It also means that I might now consider the Dapol autocoach. I have not really paid attention to it and I have some vague memory that the fully-lined chocolate and cream version of No.40 is the 1922 rather that the 1906 livery variant, but I don't recall why I might have thought that! I will have to go back and check. It might be worth seeing if the No.40 model can be made to represent the 1907 as-built condition (seen on the Newquay branch at the time, I believe).

 

I understand there is to be a brown 517 as announced. As they were painted thus to match carriage livery, it is worth noting that Dapol has announced autocoaches in both lined chocolate and cream and lined lake, but not the lined brown of 1908. It may be that the Diagram N trailers never went into brown, of course, but it leaves me feeling the brown-liveried 517 version, while attractive, is perhaps the most redundant. 

 

For a pre-Grouping branch goods, I have am fortunate enough to possess an 850 saddle tank, so perhaps may be spared censure.  

 

 

[gwr517]

If the 517 has a quality mech that can be left as is or easily converted to both EM and P4 with reasonable haulage power it will be a a most welcome addition to us GWites. I take on board the many differences in 517's,I think Mss Prism once wrote that there must have been 517 different 517's, but a new model will stop us having to chop up the old Airfix Hornby models and if there is an open cab version with round top firebox and no top feed it will save modellers considerable effort. Maybe I can stop searching for an ellusive Blacksmith or Mitchell kit. Western Australia is light on for those kits!!

[Dunsignalling]

4 minutes ago, wombatofludham said:

I must admit when involved with the "Dolgellau" layout to being surprised to hear that the 57xx were banned from the Ruabon to Barmouth route pre-1948 although the 28xx heavy goods locos were given dispensation to work the route (and apparently did) during the war. The 57xx must have been what we call in the Black Country "a Tunky Pig" carrying some weight spread over just three axles.  It does seem bizarre that the physically larger 43xx and "Aberdare" classes were regulars on the line but a dinky little tank was a no-no, but it goes to show the myriad factors to be considered in route availability.

 

Not least that the weight of the fuel and water are carried separately on tender classes!

 

[wombatofludham]

1 minute ago, Dunsignalling said:

 

Not least that the weight of the fuel and water are carried separately on tender classes!

 

Exactly.  Although when the last steam on the Cambrian runs were made pre-ETCS by the preserved LMS Black 5 they had to keep the amount of coal and water in the tender deliberately low northbound to keep within the weight limit for Barmouth Bridge, necessitating a stop for coal and water at Porthmadog, but southbound the journey was completed without the need for a pit stop as the amount of coal and water consumed from Pwllheli to the bridge meant the combined weight was OK for the crossing!