Edwinstowe Station... LNER 1930's (ex-LD&ECR, ex-GCR)

[gingerangles]

Another timetable query if I may... what's the significance of the indentation of the station names and the solid lines across left to right?

 

[stivesnick]

Hi 

 

They are generally used to show different routes from the main timetable. So in your example the main route is between Chesterfield and Lincoln as  indicated in the milage figures. The lines to Mansfield (both LNE and LMS) are branches on the main route.

 

Nick 

[gingerangles]

On 06/07/2024 at 07:26, stivesnick said:

Hi 

 

They are generally used to show different routes from the main timetable. So in your example the main route is between Chesterfield and Lincoln as  indicated in the milage figures. The lines to Mansfield (both LNE and LMS) are branches on the main route.

 

Nick 

 

Thanks @stivesnick that makes sense 👍

I'd be lying if I said I understood what was going on mind 😂 

[gingerangles]

Bit of an update... managed to settle on the fiddle yard layout... just a single yard of track and 1 point to fit. The kick backs I'll worry about later.... gonna need some stock before they become an issue 🤣

 

 

 

That's left me with a lot of wiring to do and point motors to install! 😵‍💫

 

Also decided that I'm going to install the GNR somersault semaphores and matching ground signals on the basis that I cant see any evidence that they'd have got round to changing them by the early 1930's. Looks like wizard models do a nice line of parts. 

I've also decided to get them all functional and can see myself heading down an interlocking leverframe rabbit hole before long 🤣

For the meantime I'm going to start having a play with this as a means of control...

 

 

Plenty of YouTube content it seems so wish me luck 😂

[Pyewipe Jct]

Sorry it took so long, but here are the relevant pages from my 1929 WTT pertaining to your earlier query about train workings (I've also included a few bits from the 1924 passenger TT for good measure) - hope it's of some use 👍

[gingerangles]

24 minutes ago, Pyewipe Jct said:

Sorry it took so long, but here are the relevant pages from my 1929 WTT pertaining to your earlier query about train workings (I've also included a few bits from the 1924 passenger TT for good measure) - hope it's of some use 👍

 

 

That's absolutely brill!  Thank you very much.  I'll get those printed and take a good look through... I'll no doubt be back with all the bits I don't understand 😂

 

[gingerangles]

So basically on the fiddle yard side I simply have a load of point motors to install with the associated wiring as and when, I've now all of the board joints to cut in the rails, I've decided, given it's unlikely to be moved around a lot, that I'm going to use a couple of DCC Concepts pre-etched sleepers either side of each joint which are themselves sat on and joined together by peiced of plastic strip - this will be glued to the foam track bed but also screwed to the baseboard.  I don't think this would be good enough for an exhibition layout but I'm hoping it'll be sufficient for mine and that the sleepers will blend in relatively nicely - we'll see.  Bottom left of the pic for an example.

 

 

As you can see I've begun the installation of the island platform that will be the 'Down' and 'Back' platforms.  I'd have perhaps been better off leaving one side of the trackwork unfixed to allow me to fine tune the track-platform gap but I think I've just about got their with it...

 

 

Now having something in place for this platform has let me have a play with the LCUT bridge I'd built, more as an exercise in modelling, but it looks like it may fit quite nicely...

 

 

I have had to remove one of the centre sections, reducing them from 4 to the 3 you see, as it was too wide.  It's had a coat of cheapo primer.  For what it is I'm actually really impressed.  OK, as a subject of something real it's miles off I'm certain but as an impression of what should be there it aint bad.  A bit of fettling and a nice paint job and it'll do I think.  There were also smoke deflectors and handrail supports I need to add. I may even buy another and make the modifications prior to building along with making a better job of the construction. 

After all they are pocket money levels of cost.

[stivesnick]

Hi 

 

Looking at photos of the real footbridge and then at your model it looks about right. As you say, you can always add a few more bits and pieces to improve it but the basic shape is right.

 

Nick 

[gingerangles]

18 hours ago, stivesnick said:

Hi 

 

Looking at photos of the real footbridge and then at your model it looks about right. As you say, you can always add a few more bits and pieces to improve it but the basic shape is right.

 

Nick 

 

Thanks @stivesnick

 

I also have this which is very, very useful!

 

[gingerangles]

Getting there...

 

 

 

[gingerangles]

Back on platform edge production...

[gingerangles]

And a couple if update pics using the card platform edging...

 

 

Here's a shot from the Chesterfield end. Cattle Dock clad in brickwork.

 

 

Closer shot showing the back of the Up platform similarly treated. I have absolutely no reference materials for this part of the site so winging it a bit. Haven't included the stepped out brickwork that is present on the actual platforms on the thinking it likely wouldn't be present here.

 

Not sure what to do with the trackwork here... not sure if, in the 30s, they'd of had a concrete surface and gully between the tracks for 'taking the piss' as it were? 😉  Any ideas most welcome!

 

 

[stivesnick]

Hi 

 

You may have already worked this out about how the station was used with terminating trains....

 

Looking at photos in the Middleton Press book Chesterfield to Lincoln to see if any pictures of cattle docks at other stations to help with your question about fancy brick edges - picture 20 shows a coal siding at Shirebrook North with plain brick walls but not much else.

 

Anyway, photo 40 taken at Edwinstowe shows 7.55 pm departure to Mansfield and Nottingham departing from the Lincoln bound platform. Photo 39 shows another train appearing to work wrong line, but doesn't say which train it is. These photos suggests that terminating trains did not shunt to the other platform for departure, but that the loco simply ran round its train and departed from the arrival platform.

 

Hope this is useful, but it may confuse you even more!

 

Nick 

 

 

 

[gingerangles]

10 hours ago, stivesnick said:

Hi 

 

You may have already worked this out about how the station was used with terminating trains....

 

Looking at photos in the Middleton Press book Chesterfield to Lincoln to see if any pictures of cattle docks at other stations to help with your question about fancy brick edges - picture 20 shows a coal siding at Shirebrook North with plain brick walls but not much else.

 

Anyway, photo 40 taken at Edwinstowe shows 7.55 pm departure to Mansfield and Nottingham departing from the Lincoln bound platform. Photo 39 shows another train appearing to work wrong line, but doesn't say which train it is. These photos suggests that terminating trains did not shunt to the other platform for departure, but that the loco simply ran round its train and departed from the arrival platform.

 

Hope this is useful, but it may confuse you even more!

 

Nick 

 

 

 

 

Thanks @stivesnick That's a good spot re picture 20 (or is it 21?)!  Plain walls and no real slab overhang either, interesting 👍 Wonder if this was always this way or perhaps a slabbed surface has been removed at some point?  Fencing still present so perhaps was always this way.

 

I must admit - I have skipped past some of these pics as they are obviously from a later timeframe, usually mid-40s or later and in most cases things on this line started to look like they had changed a lot (deteriorated) by then.  Take the other pics you mentioned (39 & 40) of Edwinstowe itself - the platforms are different, now with flower beds (looking very tatty), fences have all changed, etc, etc.  However in the absence of anything better I guess I should give them another look through.  The lack of pics from the 30's has become a bit of an annoyance 😂

 

I had clocked picture 40 (if that's the one with the A5?) actually for the same reason you mentioned, it is in the wrong platform!  The reversing operation here is of significant interest to me so had planned to ask here when the time arose.  I hadn't clocked the same scenario in pic 39 though so, again, good spot! 

 

Would it have been permitted for a passenger train to pull away from the Up platform in the Down direction? 

I had understood there needed to be semaphore control of this type of movement and there are no signals to my knowledge to allow this? 

As it stands I plan to have semaphores which control Up line departures from the Up & Bay platforms and Down line departures from the Down and Back platforms - as per the signalling diagram (admittedly with a little modeller's licence in relation to the Bay platform).

 

In my mind I had imagined reversing trains (from Chesterfield direction) performing the following operation:

• pulling into the Up Platform to allow passengers to alight
• the engine running round
• the train moved over to the Down platform or possibly right over to the Back platform
• passengers board and train departs  

The pointwork at either end of the station would allow a train to change lines and obviously there is signalling in place to allow Down line Down departures.

 

So what is likely scenario(s) here?  Can loaded passenger trains depart from a platform in the wrong direction?

 

I'd also been thinking about a 'Dukeries Shuttle' running back and forth from the Dukeries junction, given in my world the tourist trade to Sherwood Forest by rail did take off and I had thought this, small train, might make a similar manoeuvre - alight in the Down platform before moving over to the Bay platform for departure.

[stivesnick]

7 hours ago, gingerangles said:

Would it have been permitted for a passenger train to pull away from the Up platform in the Down direction? 

I had understood there needed to be semaphore control of this type of movement and there are no signals to my knowledge to allow this? 

As it stands I plan to have semaphores which control Up line departures from the Up & Bay platforms and Down line departures from the Down and Back platforms - as per the signalling diagram (admittedly with a little modeller's licence in relation to the Bay platform).

 

There is a ground signal (#35 on the signaling diagram) which would allow movement over the crossover onto the correct running line. I don't know enough about signalling rules to determine if this would OK for a passenger train or for shunting moves only.

 

Nick 

[Orion]

Were it a regular move there would have to be facing point locks for passenger trains, never mind the signalling. As a one-off, the points would (officially) have to be clamped and possibly a green flag from the signal box, or maybe the ground signals might suffice, depending on local regulations. This is an educated guess, based on practice elsewhere.

[gingerangles]

2 hours ago, Orion said:

Were it a regular move there would have to be facing point locks for passenger trains, never mind the signalling. As a one-off, the points would (officially) have to be clamped and possibly a green flag from the signal box, or maybe the ground signals might suffice, depending on local regulations. This is an educated guess, based on practice elsewhere.

 

Is that true of just departing passenger trains? I.e. if an empty train was moved from the Up to Down to then depart loaded would be fine I presume? 

[Blackvault]

1 hour ago, gingerangles said:

 

Is that true of just departing passenger trains? I.e. if an empty train was moved from the Up to Down to then depart loaded would be fine I presume? 

I believe so. At least that was the advise I was given in a signalling thread I posted. 

[Orion]

2 hours ago, gingerangles said:

 

Is that true of just departing passenger trains? I.e. if an empty train was moved from the Up to Down to then depart loaded would be fine I presume? 

Yes, just passenger trains with passengers in them required the facing point locks or clamping. Light engines, empty stock and freight didn't need them.

[gingerangles]

Had my first foray into the world of airbrushing last night... an attempt to paint the track.

 

I've set myself up with an Iwatta Neo, mixed up some railmatch sleeper grime with thinners to the recommended 'skimmed milk' consistency and away I went 😬😂

 

The results:

 

 

2 probs I seem to have are coverage and amount of paint used.  I've done about 4 liner meters of track and used half a pot of railmatch enamel... which doesnt seem to have covered very well 🤦‍♂️

 

[gingerangles]

Another 1st tonight... baseboard separation! 

 

[gingerangles]

More signalling / point questions I am afraid if anyone is able to "point" me in the right direction - even if it's by the way of reference reading! 😂

 

I want to include a reasonable (non-working) approximation of point rodding and signalling wires so set about trying to figure out how the levers would spread throughout the layout based on what I could decipher from pics... and (very) common sense.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Some initial queries...

 

Are signals and ground signals always operated by wires, never rods?

At Edwinstowe there is only a single 'single' point, i.e. one point / one lever.  All other levels either control 2 points or a point and catch point - where would these rods split - I assume as locally to the point work as possible?

 

Things I can be pretty sure of are:

1. There are 3 x Rods heading in the Lincoln direction adjacent the Up Platform
2. There are 2 (maybe 3) x Rods heading in the Lincoln direction adjacent the Down Platform
3. There are 7 x Rods near the SB heading in the Chesterfield direction between the Up and Down Lines
4. There are both Rods and Wires existing the rear of the SB
5. There dont appear to be any Wires adjacent the Up or Down Platforms
6. There appears to be Wires running adjacent the Back Platform heading in the Lincoln direction

Take this end for example:

 

So I know there are 3 Rods to adjacent the Up line and 2 (maybe 3) adjacent to the Down line.  There are a number (3/4 maybe?) Wires adjacent the Back Platform.

On the prototype there are 4 semaphores

At some point there would have been 5 semaphores when there was another mounted on the split pole (I've written #41 but I guess this could have been #6 which is identified as spare on the plans?)

There are 6 ground signals

There are 8 points and 1 catch point controlled by only 5 levers #'s 9, 11, 13, 14, 17 (& CP14)

 

So with 3 and 2 Rods either side of the main lines this would seem to add up - is this likely to be a correct assumption?

As for Wires, assuming signals are all wire controlled) I cant tell from any pics, the one pic of the area I do have (3rd pic) is from the 50/60s anyway and likely not representative of what I'm modelling.

On the signalling diagram I have it states "Signal No 1 Electronically Controlled" - does this mean that is wasn't lever controlled?  The diagram is labelled 'GCR' so assume it's 1907-1923 but is the statement likely to be accurate for this period?

 

If I can figure this 'simpler' end out and perhaps learn a few principles along the way I might be able to work out the other end 😁

 

Any help / guidance much appreciated as always you lovely lot 😁😂 Any corrections to the table I'm compiling above also greatly received!

[PMP]

https://www.branchstow.co.uk/pointrodding2mmscaleassociation/
 

This will answer a good few of your questions.

[gingerangles]

1 hour ago, PMP said:

https://www.branchstow.co.uk/pointrodding2mmscaleassociation/
 

This will answer a good few of your questions.

Thank you 👍

[gingerangles]

Bit of a post weekend update again... just had Sunday at it following a return from hols.

 

Managed to complete the track board joins to the point that the 3 main boards can be separated and taken out if necessary.  I'm happy with the track joints for my purposes, certainly not up to a regular exhibition going layout at the exposed ends are quite brittle.  If it does ever go anywhere it'll definitely need substantial protection over the ends.  

 

 

 

I've installed some plasticard fillets in preparation for point rodding stools...

 

 

And given the main central board, the main lines, dock and bay a going over with sleeper grime whilst the board was out...

 

 

 

Think I'm happy with it.

 

I'm not happy with this kink however!...

 

 

🤦‍♂️

 

And a bit of a mock up with some wills point rodding just to see how we look:

 

 

 

Not the stuff I'll eventually be using as the prototype used round rodding but just wanted something to trial.  I think I'll be giving the brass/white metal stuff from Wizard (MSE?) a go and I can also get some somersault signal parts whilst I'm at it.

 

Let me know your thoughts. 😁