Edwinstowe Station... LNER 1930's (ex-LD&ECR, ex-GCR)

[micklner]

https://www.brdatabase.info/

[Worsdell forever]

8 hours ago, micklner said:

https://www.brdatabase.info/

 

Not a lot of use though, on a quick scroll through I only spotted 3 K3s showing their allocations before 1948, the appropriate Yeadon's Register, Vol 8, will have the required info but I don't have it.

 

[gingerangles]

On 07/06/2024 at 15:24, Orion said:

Signal post no1 had disappeared from later maps, so not in your period anyway.

 

No2 is an unfortunate ink smudge on the map, I suspect. It too has disappeared on later maps.

 

No3 could well be a coal bin of some sort, but only guessing.

 

Apologies @Orion I've only just seen this. 

 

No1 is an odd one then... a semaphore to control...? Trains leaving the up line in the down direction, crossing at the nearby crossover maybe? Or would it been to have released movements from the Dock?

 

No2... there is a definate 'P' there and a dot which would be associated it... another odd one if they are indeed indicative of semaphores. 🤔

[gingerangles]

On 10/06/2024 at 07:29, Worsdell forever said:

 

Not a lot of use though, on a quick scroll through I only spotted 3 K3s showing their allocations before 1948, the appropriate Yeadon's Register, Vol 8, will have the required info but I don't have it.

 

 

Thanks, yes I've used this quite a lot but came unstuck when it came to the K3s as you have seen yourself. Bit of an odd one really.  Thanks for the book reference 😀 

[gingerangles]

Update on the Q6... seems to have developed a bind in the motion.

 

Sometimes it's so bad the thing won't move.

 

If you can see in the video when the crank pins are at about 6-7 o'clock the jerk and to me it looks like the rear wheel is trailing behind slightly.

 

On this model it is the 3rd set of wheels which are driven by the gearbox.

 

How can I sort this out? Nothing looks to be bent or catching in terms of connecting rods etc.

 

 

 

[Orion]

8 hours ago, gingerangles said:

 

Apologies @Orion I've only just seen this. 

 

No1 is an odd one then... a semaphore to control...? Trains leaving the up line in the down direction, crossing at the nearby crossover maybe? Or would it been to have released movements from the Dock?

 

No2... there is a definate 'P' there and a dot which would be associated it... another odd one if they are indeed indicative of semaphores. 🤔

Unfortunately. we can't know unless an original photo or an original signal diagram turns up. I did wonder if it might be some other kind of post that the cartographer had mistaken for a signal, or just a mistake, but who knows?

[Orion]

The other thought that occurs to me is that this map is a revision, not a new survey. The revision is dated 1897. This is within a few months of the line opening to passenger traffic. There could be 'relics' of the construction period still present, or the few months when goods but not passenger trains used the station. I also notice that no signal posts are present on this map at the east of the station, except an advanced starter. and a home signal.

 

You could just imagine a grumpy surveyor, upset that the LD&EC had just built a new line right through the middle of the nice pristine map that he had only surveyed a few years previously, on a cold wet morning and got it over with as quickly as possible 😜.

 

We shouldn't take these maps as being 100% accurate all the time. Even modern maps have errors.

Edited June 12 by Orion

[31A]

9 hours ago, gingerangles said:

Update on the Q6... seems to have developed a bind in the motion.

 

Sometimes it's so bad the thing won't move.

 

If you can see in the video when the crank pins are at about 6-7 o'clock the jerk and to me it looks like the rear wheel is trailing behind slightly.

 

On this model it is the 3rd set of wheels which are driven by the gearbox.

 

How can I sort this out? Nothing looks to be bent or catching in terms of connecting rods etc.

 

 

 

 

As it seems to jerk at the same point on each revolution, and you can't see any rods catching, it could perhaps be a split final drive gear, on the driven axle.  You could take the keeper plate off and have a look at the gear wheel.  It looks as though there are four screws along the bottom that you'd need to remove:

 

https://support.Hornby.com/hc/en-gb/article_attachments/360016357259

 

[gingerangles]

24 minutes ago, 31A said:

 

As it seems to jerk at the same point on each revolution, and you can't see any rods catching, it could perhaps be a split final drive gear, on the driven axle.  You could take the keeper plate off and have a look at the gear wheel.  It looks as though there are four screws along the bottom that you'd need to remove:

 

https://support.Hornby.com/hc/en-gb/article_attachments/360016357259

 

 

Thanks for that @31A  

 

I've had the motor out and I'm pretty sure the gear labelled '7' is OK but I assume there is another on the driven wheel as per item '4' I'll have to have a look at.  

 

It does seem to be related to the laggy rear wheel though I'll be honest... I'm wondering if the quartering is off maybe?

[gingerangles]

Well, supplier have asked I send it back to see if they can sort so I guess I'll leave it with them.  How annoying.

 

How's about a timetable conundrum (or maybe not 😂) for you over lunchtime....

 

I've been looking through the LNER summer timetable for 1939 (a little late for me I know but I essentially want to build my own so it was in the right ball park and a good starting point) but am struggling to make sense of some of it.  Some complexity seems to be present given the LDECR and the Mansfield Railway effectively formed 2 LNER sides of a triangle with the 3rd being the LMS line from Mansfield to Shirebrook North.  This will obviously all be good ammunition for me ultimately but this one has me puzzled at the mo...

 

 

The 'main' Table 2 timetable is in the background with the more 'local' timetable 66  inset right.

 

As you can see there is a timetabled entry for Edwinstowe at 7:34 at which point these journeys align.  The timetable seems to agree from there onward with the train eventually getting into Lincoln at 8:19 and on to the coast?...

 

Put in time order the tables when combined are as follows:

 

 

The 1st half of this list there is an obvious conflict if this/these journeys were all one train.  The route for table 2 makes sense in terms of stops and time on its own as does table 66.  

 

I am assuming these are therefore 2 separate trains somehow and that there is a change for the passengers required somewhere which isnt identified as part of the info?  The T66 train is at Mansfield at 6:50, the T2 train is at Hucknall at 6:51, therefore at this point these cannot be the same train.  To get to Mansfield from Shirebook via Warsop the T66 train has taken the LDECR Up line from Shirebrook then reversed to Mansfield down the Mansfield Railway.  The T2 train clearly takes the Mansfield Railway/GCR line from Nottingham V to Mansfield Central.

 

Both trains are at Mansfield Central at some point between 6:50 and 7:34.  

 

So - is it as simple as I am looking at 2 separate services: a Nottingham to the East Cost service and a Shirebrook to East Coast service which combines/changes at Mansfield?

Why are the stops Boughton to Skellingthorpe on T66 and not T2?  Am I correct that the service carries on to Grimsby/Cleethorpes?

 

 

 

[Orion]

On the local TT look at the train in the next but one column to the right. It takes far less time to get from Warsop to Edwinstowe than the train you are looking at. That implies an arrival time for our train way way earlier that the Nottingham train. Either a connecting service or more likely  through coaches.  Check trains in the other direction to see what is returning from Edwinstowe or Warsop to get a better clue. Only the WTT will really tell you what is actually happening.

[31A]

Connecting trains weren't always shown in italics in those days as we might expect nowadays, which can make it very difficult to work out whether passengers had to change or not, or where they had to change.  I don't know how people were expected to know, I suppose they just found out when they got there!

 

As it happens, I've got an LNER Timetable for 30 April - 8 July 1934.  The table numbers are very different but the train times seem to be quite similar.

 

As I read it, in Table 91 (in my book) there is an 0650 Nottingham-Mansfield arr 0717 where it terminates, and this table then shows the connectional times from Mansfield as a summary to the principal stations beyond, i.e. Edwinstowe, Ollerton and Lincoln.  The times at Edwinstowe, Ollerton and Lincoln are shown in light type on this page.  The left hand column tells you to look at Table 92 for the detail between Mansfield and Lincoln.

 

 

 

Table 92 shows the complete service between Shirebrook, Mansfield and Lincoln including all the intermediate stations between Mansfield and Lincoln, and from my reading of this I think there was an 0635 Shirebrook North-Lincoln arr 0819 which called at Warsop (0640) then Mansfield where it reversed (0655-0723) and then called all stations to Lincoln except Dukeries Junction.  This would be the connection out of the 0650 Nottingham.

 

 

 

But I could be wrong and Shirebrook-Mansfield and Mansfield-Lincoln could have been separate trains - would a train really go from Shirebrook to Mansfield, reverse and then double back on itself to go to Lincoln?  The timetable allows time for the loco to run round (or another loco to couple on the other end), but equally it allows time for the passengers to change trains!

 

As @Orion says, sometimes the only way to know for sure is the WTT!

[Orion]

1 hour ago, 31A said:

 

But I could be wrong and Shirebrook-Mansfield and Mansfield-Lincoln could have been separate trains - would a train really go from Shirebrook to Mansfield, reverse and then double back on itself to go to Lincoln?  The timetable allows time for the loco to run round (or another loco to couple on the other end), but equally it allows time for the passengers to change trains!

 

As @Orion says, sometimes the only way to know for sure is the WTT!

The reversal at Mansfield could have been a positioning move, as there was a loco shed was at Langwith Jn.  No reason not to make it public as passengers from Warsop may have found it useful even if it was a long way round from Langwith Jn.

[gingerangles]

9 hours ago, Orion said:

On the local TT look at the train in the next but one column to the right. It takes far less time to get from Warsop to Edwinstowe than the train you are looking at. That implies an arrival time for our train way way earlier that the Nottingham train. Either a connecting service or more likely  through coaches.  Check trains in the other direction to see what is returning from Edwinstowe or Warsop to get a better clue. Only the WTT will really tell you what is actually happening.

 

The next train to the right doesn't go to Mansfield though, which is obviously off down the Mansfield railway branch, I think that's why it's got a significantly shorter journey time.

 

Good shout comparing train times the other way 👏 👍 

 

6 hours ago, Orion said:

The reversal at Mansfield could have been a positioning move, as there was a loco shed was at Langwith Jn.  No reason not to make it public as passengers from Warsop may have found it useful even if it was a long way round from Langwith Jn.

 

Ah... to turn the loco round you mean? 

[gingerangles]

8 hours ago, 31A said:

Connecting trains weren't always shown in italics in those days as we might expect nowadays, which can make it very difficult to work out whether passengers had to change or not, or where they had to change.  I don't know how people were expected to know, I suppose they just found out when they got there!

 

As it happens, I've got an LNER Timetable for 30 April - 8 July 1934.  The table numbers are very different but the train times seem to be quite similar.

 

As I read it, in Table 91 (in my book) there is an 0650 Nottingham-Mansfield arr 0717 where it terminates, and this table then shows the connectional times from Mansfield as a summary to the principal stations beyond, i.e. Edwinstowe, Ollerton and Lincoln.  The times at Edwinstowe, Ollerton and Lincoln are shown in light type on this page.  The left hand column tells you to look at Table 92 for the detail between Mansfield and Lincoln.

 

 

 

Table 92 shows the complete service between Shirebrook, Mansfield and Lincoln including all the intermediate stations between Mansfield and Lincoln, and from my reading of this I think there was an 0635 Shirebrook North-Lincoln arr 0819 which called at Warsop (0640) then Mansfield where it reversed (0655-0723) and then called all stations to Lincoln except Dukeries Junction.  This would be the connection out of the 0650 Nottingham.

 

 

 

But I could be wrong and Shirebrook-Mansfield and Mansfield-Lincoln could have been separate trains - would a train really go from Shirebrook to Mansfield, reverse and then double back on itself to go to Lincoln?  The timetable allows time for the loco to run round (or another loco to couple on the other end), but equally it allows time for the passengers to change trains!

 

As @Orion says, sometimes the only way to know for sure is the WTT!

 

Thanks for the detailled reply and timetable screenshot. Interesting to see the slight variation layout for sure. I'll have a detailled look at them tomorrow. I guess I only need concern myself with traffic interfacing with Edwinstowe but I would like have the background info for these movements understood.

 

Is it possible to get hold of WTTs?

[Orion]

8 minutes ago, gingerangles said:

 

 

 

Ah... to turn the loco round you mean? 

No, to take a passenger train from Langwith Jn, where it would have been kept overnight, to Mansfield to use on a service starting at Mansfield to Lincoln etc. Possibly a tank loco. I am not sure there was a turntable at Mansfield GC station.

 

There was no loco shed at Mansfield GC, so a loco and train starting from Mansfield would either have to originate at Langwith, Tuxford or Annesley. Langwith would make sense as the men would know the road at least as far as Lincoln.

 

There was a turntable at Langwith Jn so if a loco at Langwith needed turning, it would have been done there.

[Orion]

1 minute ago, gingerangles said:

 

 

Is it possible to get hold of WTTs?

They possibly do exist, but you may need to try the NRM at york or the LNER Society or the GC Society as theyy are likely to be rare, if indeed they still exist at all.

[Pyewipe Jct]

9 hours ago, gingerangles said:

Is it possible to get hold of WTTs?

I have a 1929 WTT for the line in question - only problem is, it's buried at the back of the spare room that is absolutely crammed with junk at the moment, so I may not be able to lay my hands on it straightaway...

I'll have a dig in a minute 👍

[gingerangles]

7 hours ago, Pyewipe Jct said:

I have a 1929 WTT for the line in question - only problem is, it's buried at the back of the spare room that is absolutely crammed with junk at the moment, so I may not be able to lay my hands on it straightaway...

I'll have a dig in a minute 👍

 

That would be amazing @Pyewipe Jct thank you 😊 

[gingerangles]

Taken a wider look at table 66 as you suggested @Orion and perhaps the Shirebrook -> Mansfield train drops its passengers off for them to catch the through Notting-> Lincoln whilst itself returning to Shirebrook to take the 7:15 to Chesterfield?  So any passengers from Shirebrook for Lincoln are changing at Mansfield.

 

 

Or indeed there is a 6:56 departure from Mansfield towards Nottingham and on to London which could well be this I guess.... like you said a positioning move from Langwith way over to Mansfield made public.

 

Either would make sense I suppose. 

 

Thanks folks.

[gingerangles]

Well here is the result of my timetable exercise for passenger movements...

 

Time to look at freight 😀

 

[gingerangles]

I've acquired a B12 from ebay, the Hornby 8544 version from the LNER set - it was quite cheap so worth a punt I thought.  So far managed to stick a decoder in it and got it running up and down successfully - the tender wheelset is oddly-largely flanged in comparison to the loco itself to the point the tender doesnt like the track and in particular the points.... so need to source a suitable 16mm replacement set.

 

I'm thinking I can squeeze a diverted Harwich Boat Train / North Country Continental passing through into the timetable 😎 

Although a B17 would be more appropriate from what I've read for my period 🤷‍♂️😂

[gingerangles]

On 07/06/2024 at 11:05, gingerangles said:

Further to the question posted RE buildings... bit of an update...

 

 

 

 

An update on this, think the answer to number 2 is that the phantom SP should actually read SB... the dot being part of the abbreviation not another post 😂 simples 😂

 

[gingerangles]

So... I've been busy trying to sort surgy running and dodgy running locos but I have managed to squeeze some layout progress in.  

 

The 'Up' fiddle yard main tracks are laid.  This also included lifting and relaying 6 of the points... I had installed them without holes for underboard point motors as I had the intention of using top mounted motors (DCC Concepts Colbalt SS) but on reflection and having played with a couple of these I think better safe than sorry is definitely the order of the day so decided to drill the holes in case I need them. 

I have also added a few more points to the collection to allow me to start arranging the Down side sidings and have managed to get the Down loop setup. 

So I can now run two trains!  The track layout also makes much more sense with the Down line in as it seems to be the key to operation of the station facilities.

 

UP lines on the Right.  Still have the kickback sidings to arrange and install.

 

 

[gingerangles]

Steadily still track laying in the background. Waiting for a few more points to come in the post. I tend to find myself buying a couple, getting a bit further before deciding on what's going where next and then buying a couple more. Hopefully this'll be the last batch.

Once I've got the main fiddle roads all in I think my attention will go back to electrics. Compared to the scenic side, which I thought had a lot of wiring, the fiddle yard is something else! 😂

After that, or possibly at the same time I'd like to get the platforms in and finished. Currently I've the Up platform faced satisfactorily using the printed paper method. I think this looks good. I've got hold of some artists setting spray which I'm going to use to hopefully add to its longevity then a coat of matt varnish. Whilst I think this is good enough for the platform faces I've begun to have doubts about it for the buildings as a method. I think at 1st glance it looks great... just not sure if I can live with the lack of a texture on the more prominent parts... we'll see.

I've also decided to give arduino controlled signals a go, after buying a Dapol signal I think I can do better so a bit of research required here me thinks.

 

Here's the O4 with a completely inappropriate rake of BR Mk1s and the Q6 with a mix of wagons...

 

 

Edited July 2 by gingerangles