Edwinstowe Station... LNER 1930's (ex-LD&ECR, ex-GCR)

[t-b-g]

3 hours ago, gingerangles said:

What would be usefully applied to that diagram would be the loading gauge (if that's the correct thing) or maximum carriage dimensions to give a rolling stock to platform edge dimension (minimum that is). 😀

 

I'd be happy to super impose if there was such a thing???

 

You mean like this......

 

http://www.swithland-signal-works.co.uk/plans/27_CLEARANCE_DIAGRAM.jpg

 

The Swithland site has a load of useful MSLR/GCR drawings. Again, they are not LDECR (for which, in the most part, GNR drawings would be more appropriate) but better than the ones we haven't got!

 

This is the main menu of the site.

 

http://www.swithland-signal-works.co.uk/plans/plans.htm

[Orion]

I thought they got much of their info, including rolling stock drawings, from the GER, where Harry Willmott worked before getting the top job on the LD&EC. Some things were different though, like signalling (bought from signalling contractors who had contracts to signal different stretches of line) and architecture, which I suspect was purely LD&EC in character.

 

Lots of GER info can be downloaded from the GERS site.

 

When the LD&EC was built, the MS&L, later GCR  and LDEC were mutual enemies. I think the GNR was lukewarm too. Unlikely to share information.

[t-b-g]

18 minutes ago, Orion said:

I thought they got much of their info, including rolling stock drawings, from the GER, where Harry Willmott worked before getting the top job on the LD&EC. Some things were different though, like signalling (bought from signalling contractors who had contracts to signal different stretches of line) and architecture, which I suspect was purely LD&EC in character.

 

Lots of GER info can be downloaded from the GERS site.

 

When the LD&EC was built, the MS&L, later GCR  and LDEC were mutual enemies. I think the GNR was lukewarm too. Unlikely to share information.

 

If you look at the LDECR signals, signal boxes and permanent way closely, they are almost the same as GNR. Of course the LDECR didn't have substantial facilities for producing their own permanent way, signalling etc. and relied on outside contractors. It is my view that they went to the contractors who had also produced such things for the GNR and ordered the same things for their railway. So there was no direct approach to the GNR. Even the sleeper spacing for a 30ft track panel, which is highly distinctive and unusual, looks the same as the GNR available on the internet. Of course I can't go out and measure it to prove it but I am happy with my conclusions. LDECR buffer stops look exactly like GNR ones too.

 

You are quite right, the LDECR had much closer ties to the GER, who had helped them out when finances became a problem, in return for running powers to the coalfields served by the LDECR and GER trains ran all the way up to Clowne in pre-grouping times. Many items of LDECR rolling stock were to GER designs and some was purchased from the GER second hand.

 

The infrastructure, however, was more GNR than GER.

 

This is my model of an LDECR signal box. Several GNR modellers have mistaken it for one of "theirs".

[Orion]

I remember reading somewhere that the signalling of the original LDEC main line was split into two contracts, east and west done by different signalling contractors. Saxby & Farmer got one and don't remember who got the other. I think the GNR used S&F for some of their contracts, so that may be where the similarity came from.

 

In practice, I think the GNR used a number of contractors on an almost on-off basis, so their designs varied quite a bit. Sure, some looked like the LDEC ones, but others were very different.

[gingerangles]

1 hour ago, t-b-g said:

 

You mean like this......

 

http://www.swithland-signal-works.co.uk/plans/27_CLEARANCE_DIAGRAM.jpg

 

The Swithland site has a load of useful MSLR/GCR drawings. Again, they are not LDECR (for which, in the most part, GNR drawings would be more appropriate) but better than the ones we haven't got!

 

This is the main menu of the site.

 

http://www.swithland-signal-works.co.uk/plans/plans.htm

More or less exactly that yes 😂

 

Thanks @t-b-g

 

 

Wasn't a bad guess then was it 😃

[t-b-g]

1 hour ago, Orion said:

I remember reading somewhere that the signalling of the original LDEC main line was split into two contracts, east and west done by different signalling contractors. Saxby & Farmer got one and don't remember who got the other. I think the GNR used S&F for some of their contracts, so that may be where the similarity came from.

 

In practice, I think the GNR used a number of contractors on an almost on-off basis, so their designs varied quite a bit. Sure, some looked like the LDEC ones, but others were very different.

 

You are quite right about Saxby and Farmer being the common link. The components for somersault signals were a "stock" item which appear in their catalogues.

 

The other end of the line was signalled by the Railway Signal Company. In Chris Booth's first volume of his LDECR books, he mentions that the signal boxes were reminiscent of GNR boxes and the the signals were similar to GNR ones, except with the lamp in line with the arm rather than lower down.

 

The Saxby boxes seem to have plain barge boards and the RSCo ones had the fancy version.

 

Although the GNR did have a wide variety of signal box types and had plenty that were nothing like any LDECR boxes, the reverse is not the case. There were obvious variations on the LDECR, such as the barge boards being plain or fancy, or the structure being timber or brick but there wasn't a box on the LDECR that would look out of place on the appropriate lines of the GNR.

 

What I found interesting, when researching my model, is that LDECR signal boxes exhibit a big variety of detail variation. No two are quite the same in terms of all the features. So when I built mine, which is for a fictional location, I decided that I couldn't model any real box exactly as it was because that would mean that there were two the same. So mine has features from 3 different boxes rolled into one.  

Edited June 5 by t-b-g
To add content

[gingerangles]

3 hours ago, t-b-g said:

 

 

Love it!  I hope mine comes out half as good.  Like you said I have noticed quite a bit of variation in box design along the line, Edwinstowe is quite similar to this design but subtle differences include the front windows, the external gangway, barge boards, handrails... very interesting.  I am going to take your lead on colours mind you @t-b-g 😁  How did the emexpo go BTW?

[t-b-g]

3 minutes ago, gingerangles said:

 

Love it!  I hope mine comes out half as good.  Like you said I have noticed quite a bit of variation in box design along the line, Edwinstowe is quite similar to this design but subtle differences include the front windows, the external gangway, barge boards, handrails... very interesting.  I am going to take your lead on colours mind you @t-b-g 😁  How did the emexpo go BTW?

 

Thanks. EXPO EM was good fun, as it always is. I had quite a bit of interest in the buildings I had on display, including this one and my shortened Edwinstowe station building.

 

The colours are what I think the LDECR used, based on limited published information and also my scraping paint off a disused former LDECR building down to the timber! I visited the station at Ollerton many years ago, with permission from the then owner. The goods shed was still in very faded LNER green and cream paint but I was allowed to examine places where the paint was already flaking away. The surviving station building at Clifton on Trent has green and white windows, which I was told were also based on paint scrapings.

 

By the mid 1920s, it is very likely that they would have been repainted into GCR brown and cream livery, which was continued by the LNER into the 1930s.

[gingerangles]

59 minutes ago, t-b-g said:

 

Thanks. EXPO EM was good fun, as it always is. I had quite a bit of interest in the buildings I had on display, including this one and my shortened Edwinstowe station building.

 

By the mid 1920s, it is very likely that they would have been repainted into GCR brown and cream livery, which was continued by the LNER into the 1930s.

 

Glad to hear it went well... wish I could have come along!

 

Ah... we'll that's interesting re the change to brown and cream. Given I'm basing my layout in the 30s! 

 

I've got the impression that the buildings at edwinstowe were green and cream later in life (again?) But I must admit I have seen a couple of photos that look like they have been coloured from B&W which may be the source of this train of thought 🤔🤦‍♂️😂

[t-b-g]

1 hour ago, gingerangles said:

 

Glad to hear it went well... wish I could have come along!

 

Ah... we'll that's interesting re the change to brown and cream. Given I'm basing my layout in the 30s! 

 

I've got the impression that the buildings at edwinstowe were green and cream later in life (again?) But I must admit I have seen a couple of photos that look like they have been coloured from B&W which may be the source of this train of thought 🤔🤦‍♂️😂

 

The LNER changed from brown and cream to green and cream from around 1937/8. I can't remember the exact date and of course it would be many years (maybe never!) until everything was repainted.

[St Enodoc]

7 hours ago, t-b-g said:

 

You mean like this......

 

http://www.swithland-signal-works.co.uk/plans/27_CLEARANCE_DIAGRAM.jpg

 

The Swithland site has a load of useful MSLR/GCR drawings. Again, they are not LDECR (for which, in the most part, GNR drawings would be more appropriate) but better than the ones we haven't got!

 

This is the main menu of the site.

 

http://www.swithland-signal-works.co.uk/plans/plans.htm

Interesting. The clearance diagram shows an increase of 1.375", which brings the scale distance to 19.5mm, closer to my nominal 20mm!

 

5 hours ago, gingerangles said:

Wasn't a bad guess then was it 😃

So it was an optical illusion after all! Well done.

[gingerangles]

4 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

Interesting. The clearance diagram shows an increase of 1.375", which brings the scale distance to 19.5mm, closer to my nominal 20mm!

 

So it was an optical illusion after all! Well done.

 

What's half a mm eh!? 😂

[St Enodoc]

Just now, gingerangles said:

 

What's half a mm eh!? 😂

Depends whether you're buying or selling...

[gingerangles]

7 hours ago, t-b-g said:

 

The LNER changed from brown and cream to green and cream from around 1937/8. I can't remember the exact date and of course it would be many years (maybe never!) until everything was repainted.

 

Key question is... did they get round to painting Edwinstowe Brown before 1937/38??? 🤷‍♂️

[t-b-g]

42 minutes ago, gingerangles said:

 

Key question is... did they get round to painting Edwinstowe Brown before 1937/38??? 🤷‍♂️

 

In earlier times pre WW1, the railways were blessed with more cheap labour and were also in much competition with each other, so keeping stations and buildings smart and freshly painted was much more common. By the late 1930s repainting programs were disrupted by WW2 and nationalisation.

 

So a building still in LDECR colours in the mid 30s would be unlikely. That would mean it hadn't been repainted for nearly 30 years. From 1937 to the closure of the stations was nearer 20 years at a time when the line was very much in decline.

 

But it is your layout and it would be hard to prove that it was wrong to have them green!

 

 

[Orion]

I suspect that some stations would have been repainted more often than others, at least in part. Royal visits, stations used by top aristocracy, railway bosses' local stations etc. etc. Edwinstowe might have been moderately high on the list? Just guessing.

[t-b-g]

1 hour ago, Orion said:

I suspect that some stations would have been repainted more often than others, at least in part. Royal visits, stations used by top aristocracy, railway bosses' local stations etc. etc. Edwinstowe might have been moderately high on the list? Just guessing.

 

That is a good point. Frequent high profile visits would certainly make fresh paint more likely. Even on a backwater like Tickhill and Wadworth on the SYJR, the GCR repainted the signal box twice in about 5 years pre WW1.

[gingerangles]

Thanks @t-b-g & @Orion 

Agreed in that I would have thought Edwinstowe would have received a coat of paint in that time between LDECR days and late 30s.  I was aiming for 1930-1935 in my mind (although this annoying puts me outside steel hopper wagon territory 😂) so I guess this would mean it would have been brown if repainted.  Given my layout's scenario of being more passenger fruitful than perhaps in reality and that this would likely mean repainting even more likely then I think brown it is.

 

I believe that further narrows down the reference material available... cant even plagiarise @t-b-g's work 😂

[Enterprisingwestern]

7 hours ago, gingerangles said:

 

What's half a mm eh!? 😂

EM or P4!

 

Mike.

[gingerangles]

19 minutes ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

EM or P4!

 

Mike.

 

Exactly... who cares? 😉 😂😂😂

 

BTW I notice there is a 'Scalefour Society' exhibition on this weekend in Crewe - anyone know anything about this?  Worth popping along for general modelling interest???

[gingerangles]

Further to the question posted RE buildings... bit of an update...

 

 

So I actually managed to find a picture which showed the 'tin shed' so I have a reference for that.  Oddly, there seems to be very few photos of Edwinstowe which have signals in the picture.  On the above you can see there are 3 definite 'SP's: What I think will be the Back and Down Platform Starter signals, then a third I am unsure of (1) ... I dont think its a ground signal as these aren't shown and it would be in the wrong place, its obviously not a starter signal for the up line.  There was a telegraph pole attached / close by the signal box - could it be this?

As for (2) - there is what looks to be a 'P' in amongst the embankment notation and a 'pole' style dot to the bottom left of it.  The 'P' doesn't seem to be preceded by an S, so who knows - I wondered if this could be loco watering?

(3) - an unidentified box... I think I'll treat this as a coal staithe unless anyone can point out why it would not be located there... on the dock next to the cattle???

[Orion]

Signal post no1 had disappeared from later maps, so not in your period anyway.

 

No2 is an unfortunate ink smudge on the map, I suspect. It too has disappeared on later maps.

 

No3 could well be a coal bin of some sort, but only guessing.

[gingerangles]

Managed to get the Zemo, speaker and stay alive in the Q6. No hacking at the tender either! 😎

 

Unfortunately had a bit of a mare and broke one of the loco-tender connection cables right out of the socket. Managed to solder it back to the pin but it was a bit of a bodge so we'll see how it goes.

 

 

[gingerangles]

Inside the tender...

 

[gingerangles]

Can anyone help me out with K3 shed allocations in LNER days? Every loco I've looked at so far seems to start in the later half of the 1940s?