GWR Hydra livery

[Mikkel]

Hi all, a query regarding the GWR Hydras, which were rated for passenger trains and carried brown livery during part of their lives. Specifically I am trying to identify the correct livery for a Hydra G19 in 1913.

 

Models of Hydras always show them in brown, but typically on grouping layouts. The instructions for the popular 7mm Connoiseur kit states the livery as brown, but without further detail. The only hint I can find in Atkins et al (p155) is this somewhat open-ended statement:

 

"The HYDRA B code did not appear in the 1900 code book [...] Although later painted brown with ochre lettering, the HYDRAS did not change their running numbers upon reclassifiction".

 

Should this be interpreted to mean that the Hydras didn't turn to brown until WW1, along with e.g. Beetles and Bloaters. And when did they lose the brown livery again, I wonder?

 

[Miss Prism]

This is confusing on a number of counts. It is possible that other 'reclassification' schemes took place prior to the main one (the accountancy scam) of c 1915, and it doesn't help that the bible doesn't explain which reclassification it is referring to. The second confusion is allowing Hydras into passenger trains at all, since they were not vacuum fitted. The subject was touched upon in the recent Modbury thread.

 

Also, fig 169 of the bible is a G22 Hydra pictured in 1914 and stated to be 'Brown livery at this time.' That conclusion seems to be plucked out of thin air.

 

We know NPCCS vehicles weren't always brown, and my current feeling is that there is no consistent pattern of grey to brown and back to grey across a number of diagrams.

 

 

 

Edited May 28 by Miss Prism
Edit: some Hydras were vacuum fitted.

[Mikkel]

The photo in Fig 169 adds further to the confusion because the camera renders the "GW" and the numbering in quite different shades! The caption states that the Hydra is pictured as new, in which case are we seeing yellow + white? Or perhaps it is not in fact new, but has been touched up.

 

These immediate pre-WW1 years are complicated and inconsistent, livery-wise. It's all Churchwards fault! 

 

Edited March 22 by Mikkel
Spelling

[kada33]

Hi Mikkel

You could if you have a copy of the 'Great Western Way' check out page 100 onwards 'The Brown Vehicles' this was compiled by John Lewis and is a HMRS publication.

It states vehicles built between 1912 & 1922 were painted 'Lake'

Dave

[Mikkel]

Many thanks, Dave, very useful. My version of GWW is the old one by Slinn, which is not clear on this.

 

I'm wondering what John means by "Lake" - it's hard to imagine a Hydra in crimson lake?

 

[osbornsmodels]

Quote

The second confusion is allowing Hydras into passenger trains at all, since they were not vacuum fitted

Miss Prism stated the above but Didcot Railway Centre begs to differ. Lifted from their website 

Quote

Unlike 'Loriots' (see 42271) they were fitted with vacuum brakes and intended for use as part of passenger trains. 

more confusion?

[Miss Prism]

I stand corrected - the later Hydras (principally the G22) were vacuum-fitted, but it is far from clear whether the earlier Hydras had vacuum cylinders (as opposed to through-piped) or when vacuum cylinders may have been retrofitted.

 

Edited May 28 by Miss Prism

[Mikkel]

1940s photos of G11s suggest no vac cylinders. Even with the deep frames, I think it would be visible.

[Mikkel]

On second thoughts: No vac. cylinders can be seen in photos of the G22, suggesting that they may not be visible.

 

Moreover, the G19s and later also G11s had clasp brakes (although only on the outside of the wheels at each end). Would this not imply that a vac cylinder was fitted?The well-detailed Connoiseur Models comes with brake pull yokes, I see.

 

[osbornsmodels]

this stripped back chassis at Didcot of the G22 clearly shows the Vacuum cylinder which would only be visible in service viewed from low down and from one end only.

https://didcotrailwaycentre.org.uk/article.php/224/no-42193-hydra-d-well-wagon#gallery-2

[Miss Prism]

2 hours ago, Mikkel said:

Moreover, the G19s and later also G11s had clasp brakes (although only on the outside of the wheels at each end). Would this not imply that a vac cylinder was fitted?

 

No. The 'outside-only' clasp brakes are DCII. It seems the G11s were DCIII. Both non-vacuum, but some look to be through-piped.

 

I do find the Hydras confusing.

 

 

Edited May 30 by Miss Prism

[Mikkel]

Confusing indeed. The images below both show 1947 G11s in Atkins et al. Aren't those outside-only clasp brakes?

 

 

 

 

 

[Miss Prism]

Yes.

[kada33]

Hi MikKel and all.

The link by osbornsmodels to the two photos of the Hydra D to Dia. G22 were taken by me on the 28th of July 2013.

I have further photo of this vehicle in black and white, as I was building a G1 kit of one at that time.

Castle also sent me photos as well.

Dave

 

 

Edited June 1 by kada33

[Mikkel]

Many thanks Dave, those two photos helped clear up the G22 and vac. cylinder issue.

 

I've gone for a G11, converted from a G19 kit. It will be grey!

 

Here are all the quotes from Atkins et al about Hydras and livery:
 

Quote

 

1.    “Many of the wagons that could run in passenger trains as well as goods trains were painted brown after 1916. Some of these brown vehicles such as BEETLES, BLOATERS, FRUITS, HYDRAS, CONFLATS, SERPENTS and TADPOLES had always been built under goods Lots and were in the wagon index, but horse boxes (PACOS), milk churn vans (SIPHONS) and carriage trucks (PYTHONS, SCORPIONS) were in the corresponding carriage diagram index with letters N, O, P respectively.” (Preface)
 

2.    “Goods vehicles which often travelled in passenger trains, such as BEETLES and BLOATERS, were painted brown with ochre lettering during and after World War 1, and vans (as opposed to, say, HYDRAS) lost their wagon numbers and were incorporated in the van list along with Siphons”.  (p64)
 

3.    “Since the HYDRAs were intended to run in passenger trains, they were later classified as “brown” vehicles.” (p153)
 

4.    “The HYDRA B code did not appear in the 1900 code book, yet the 1904 G16 wagons had the C suffix; the explanation for this is not known. Although later painted brown with ochre lettering, the HYDRAs did not change their running numbers upon reclassification”.  (p155)

 

 

To me these quotes suggest that Atkins et al are saying that HYDRAs were not initially brown but became so “later”. It is not always clear what they mean by “later”, but the wording seems to imply the WW1 reclassification scheme.

 

There are two photos of pre-grouping Hydras in their book:

• Ex-works G11 photographed in 1899. The caption does not comment on livery, but to me it looks like the ordinary goods livery of the time.
• Ex-works G22 in 1914. The caption says it is brown and yellow, which looks plausible (though oddly the additional script is a different shade). If this is indeed 1914 it contradicts the 1916 date in quote 1. But it is still WW1 and does not tell us anything about the years preceding that.

I think the 1912 change of Browns to lake colour (referred to in GW Way) was about aligning the colour of Browns with the 1912 Lake on coaches. But if the Hydras weren't treated as full-blown Browns before 1914 then it would presumably not have applied to them. 

 

 

[richbrummitt]

The full fat Atkins (3rd. ed., 1998) says that Beetles didn’t become brown until 1926. I rediscovered this after finishing two W7 in brown and I’ve just painted two W4 grey. I’m still unsure  what is right for the early 1920s