gr.king Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 Painting is a simple enough matter, easily accomplished with little more than blood, sweat, tears and years of practice Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium great northern Posted June 19, 2014 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted June 19, 2014 Painting is a simple enough matter, easily accomplished with little more than blood, sweat, tears and years of practice Sweat, OK, tears, alright, but forget the blood. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwealleans Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 forget the blood So what do you use with your custard? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Mallard60022 Posted June 19, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 19, 2014 .......there is a God........................ P Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Wright Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 Ah, but you left before TW demonstrated how easy the painting side can be. I'm sure it isn't as simple as it looked, but even I may be able to point a can of car aerosol in the right direction I reckon. But you didn't mention that I had to strip down one side of one of the carriages after I'd prematurely attempted to remove a speck from the middle lower panel. The moral, if there is a speck of dust on a coat, leave it until it's dry and then pick it off. My usual spray-painting regime is to place my half-open cardboard box, on a stool, just outside my shed. Inside the box is a cake-icing turntable onto which are placed scraps of wood to lift the model up. I then apply two coats of red primer, speeding the drying process up between each coat by using an old hair dryer. These are followed by two coats of the body colour (for BR maroon, Ford Burgundy Red), again using the hair dryer between coats. Then I leave each paint job for at least 24 hours before attempting any further work (though the models can be handled after 12). A total of four coats should be enough - adding more increases the risk of tiny suicidal insects homing in on the still-tacky paint. The following pictures show some of the processes. These were staged this morning after the coaches were painted by 6.00 pm last night (thanks to my wife for 'posing'), so no more paint was actually applied. The expanding gadget is useful for moving the model around to apply the final coat, and it's easier to see the finish. However, wear a disposable glove if you don't want a painted hand. Spray-painting finished and lining, lettering, glazing and door furniture to be applied. Because no attempt is made to actually paint the roof, the over-spray creates a pleasing texture which represents canvas very well after the brush-painted grey is applied. Before that, though, the brake needs some ventilators removing. 'Proper' painters such as Larry Goddard and Ian Rathbone will have a bespoke set-up for painting. Because most of what I do is 'improper', I get by, and painting outside (providing the weather is suitable - dry, little wind, etc) means no need for ventilation or respiratory aids. Much more on these conversions is posted on Wright Writes. I should also like to add that as an adjunct to Graeme King's sound list of prerequisites for painting, an ever-expanding vocabulary of profanity is essential! 7 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Mallard60022 Posted June 19, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 19, 2014 Tony Angelo at his best there ladies and gentlefolk. Note he gets his apprentice to do the 'posing' as was the practice historically. Now then, I have seen the results of this 'basic spray booth method' and I can assure readers that the end result looks bl**dy brilliant. I, of course, am but an 'umble man and really like BR Maroon. It is unfortunate that various species of mini beast also seem to love BR Maroon and need to settle on it just after paint application. There is, of course. a guaranteed remedy to prevent this and I will pass that info on for a small large fee..... I really am going to have a go.............................. P Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigwordsmith Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 ... thinks -"Either TW has sprayed an awful lot of maroon coaches in that box, or car sprays produce an awful lot more paint than airbrushes!"... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Mallard60022 Posted June 19, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 19, 2014 ... thinks -"Either TW has sprayed an awful lot of maroon coaches in that box, or car sprays produce an awful lot more paint than airbrushes!"... ..that is the highly technical spray booth facility you are talking about there 'smithy' ..... P Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 (edited) Tony Wright said : - I then apply two coats of red primer, speeding the drying process up between each coat by using an old hair dryer. These are followed by two coats of the body colour (for BR maroon, Ford Burgundy Red), again using the hair dryer between coats. Then I leave each paint job for at least 24 hours before attempting any further work (though the models can be handled after 12). A total of four coats should be enough - adding more increases the risk of tiny suicidal insects homing in on the still-tacky paint. I would like to help you here. I can assure you there is no need to wait all this time when you are using car sprays. Primer: one coat of Halford Acid 8 grey etching prier left for 2-4 hours depending on circumstances. Plus one coat of red oxide on the inside of the coach (no point in wasting expensive etch primer on inside faces). Body colour :- I use cellulose but car colours are fine too. Two coats of BR maroon with 10 minutes in between coats, then leave on shelf above convector heater for 40 minutes. Mask body off and spray underframe and ends cellulose of acrylic matt black. Leave to dry 15 minutes. Take indoors and rule on black lining in cellulose. Leave for 10 minutes..... Then apply transfers (Methfix adhere much better to new paint), then rule on the yellow lines. Spray one coat of varnish. Again I use clear cellulose and so the model is ready for fitting the glazing after 10 minutes. This is the way I do it. Drying times would need to be lengthened very considerably to suit enamel paints and varnishes. I primed two coaches just before noon today and have set the manual clock to 2pm for 'next spray'...... Hope this assists. Edited June 19, 2014 by coachmann 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Wright Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 (edited) I would like to help you here. I can assure you there is no need to wait all this time when you are using car sprays. Primer: one coat of Halford Acid 8 grey etching prier left for 2-4 hours depending on circumstances. Plus one coat of red oxide on the inside of the coach (no point in wasting expensive etch primer on inside faces). Body colour :- I use cellulose but car colours are fine too. Two coats of BR maroon with 10 minutes in between coats, then leave on shelf above convector heater for 40 minutes. Mask body off and spray underframe and ends cellulose of acrylic matt black. Leave to dry 15 minutes. Take indoors and rule on black lining in cellulose. Leave for 10 minutes..... Then apply transfers (Methfix adhere much better to new paint), then rule on the yellow lines. Spray one coat of varnish. Again I use clear cellulose and so the model is ready for fitting the glazing after 10 minutes. This is the way I do it. Drying times would need to be lengthened very considerably to suit enamel paints and varnishes. I primed two coaches just before noon today and have set the manual clock to 2pm for 'next spray'...... WEB Spray 1.jpg Hope this assists. It does indeed - thanks Larry, Looking at it again though, my description was ambiguous. I don't leave 24 hours between each coat (perhaps I gave that impression), but leave the model alone for that period after the final coat is applied. I'm amazed at the short amount of time you need between painting and further progress. Whenever I try to do further work on painted carriages (or anything else) before at least a day has passed, I always muck things up. But then, you really know what you're doing. Edited June 19, 2014 by Tony Wright 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gr.king Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 (edited) I used to use half of an old cadrboard box as a spray booth but would caution against using the same one too many times. I found it became a source of gritty detritus waiting to be blown onto the model by the air stream. If I have to spray indoors now, with good ventilation of course, I try to spread clean newspaper under, around and behind the model in a fairly "open" location so that there is no unintended air-swirl around the model as I spray. Whenever possible however I prefer to spray outdoors, not in a dusty gritty area on a windy day of course, nor in rain (!!) with the model on some sort of painting handle (a kitchen roll middle or even a loo roll middle stuffed inside it somewhere, for example) and again spray "into the open air" so that overspray and any grot disturbed by the airstream can go away from the wet paint. I even sneakily paint on cold damp winter days by opening the kitchen door and spraying outwards through the doorway with the model held just within the "safe" kitchen environment - not while Mrs K is trying to cook of course! The painting handle, rather than a booth and/or turntable I find useful as it allows the spray to be applied at suitable angles to all of the awkward bits of the model, and working in daylight when possible helps to reveal missed bits before others spot them! But I emphasize that I am NOT a painting expert, unlike Larry. I've simply learned what I appear to be able to get away with...... Edited June 19, 2014 by gr.king Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 (edited) Multitasking....It's big-shop day......the 2pm next-spray went to 3pm......I'm off again now to pick up some lighting for the railway and so the black will go on around 5pm..... Edited June 19, 2014 by coachmann 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Wright Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 I used to use half of an old cadrboard box as a spray booth but would caution against using the same one too many times. I found it became a source of gritty detritus waiting to be blown onto the model by the air stream. If I have to spray indoors now, with good ventilation of course, I try to spread clean newspaper under, around and behind the model in a fairly "open" location so that there is no unintended air-swirl around the model as I spray. Whenever possible however I prefer to spray outdoors, not in a dusty gritty area on a windy day of course, nor in rain (!!) with the model on some sort of painting handle (a kitchen roll middle or even a loo roll middle stuffed inside it somewhere, for example) and again spray "into the open air" so that overspray and any grot disturbed by the airstream can go away from the wet paint. I even sneakily paint on cold damp winter days by opening the kitchen door and spraying outwards through the doorway with the model held just within the "safe" kitchen environment - not while Mrs K is trying to cook of course! The painting handle, rather than a booth and/or turntable I find useful as it allows the spray to be applied at suitable angles to all of the awkward bits of the model, and working in daylight when possible helps to reveal missed bits before others spot them! But I emphasize that I am NOT a painting expert, unlike Larry. I've simply learned what I appear to be able to get away with...... I should have pointed out that I brush out the box before use and spray primer into it before painting a model. The primer then settles any odd bits of detritus. The main reason for using the box is that it prevents wind eddies from affecting the painting and the over-spray doesn't go everywhere. And, I'm in the same leagues as you in that I've learned what I can get away with - just! 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Wright Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 ... thinks -"Either TW has sprayed an awful lot of maroon coaches in that box, or car sprays produce an awful lot more paint than airbrushes!"... About a dozen in the last week or so. Car spray paints, by their very nature and what they're principally designed for, produce far, far more paint than a modeller's airbrush. Would you try to paint, say, the wing of a car with an airbrush? The method is wasteful I admit. Each can of paint costs over £6.00, and for that you can probably prime eight-ten vehicles or top-coat six. But it works, and it's far less expensive than farming out the job to a professional, even though the end results aren't quite in the same class. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigwordsmith Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 Actually Tony that's not bad value at all - when you look at the cost of a pot of Precision or Phoenix, plus thinners, then the cost of a decent airbrush, I'd say you;re ahead on points! 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 Back just before 5pm and sprayed on the black... Main Job done. 10 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brass0four Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 One of the downsides with an airbrush is the maintenance - they should be stripped and cleaned every time after use, which normally takes far longer than the job they've just done. (My own use was for artwork - little time for modelling these days) Otherwise, cheap, single-action airbrushes - the sort with a bottle attached - are not dissimilar to a spray-can in excessive volume, but you can mix small amounts for the glass pot, and they are simpler to clean. This gives access to a large range of colours - they are particularly good for broad-stroke scenics - modifying foliage colours, etc. Tony. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium great northern Posted June 21, 2014 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted June 21, 2014 A quick shot of the first completed conversion, though I have contributed very little to it. This is a Dia 211 end door CK, the sides for which came from Bill Bedford. Tony offered to do this one himself, in return for my scenic efforts on Little Bytham, so all I have done is to paint the roof and the ends. On Monday though we shall hopefully complete the two which have been featured earlier, and which, as shown in Tony's photos further up the page have been through the paint shop now. I entirely agree with Tony that as a "layout coach", this fits the bill pretty well. It would not stand close up comparison with the work of professional builders and painters, but running past as part of a rake of coaches of similar standard we reckon it is entirely passable. We shall be doing a couple of full kits in due course, but it is becoming clear that the time involved in so doing will be appreciably more than in producing something like the CK above, and the cost will be significantly greater too. So, conversions will be the way to go. It is all about compromise once again, but when building layouts the size of Tony's and mine that becomes inevitable. Off to pursue errant golf balls now, but tomorrow there will be some very significant happenings at PN. Watch this space. 17 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CUTLER2579 Posted June 21, 2014 Share Posted June 21, 2014 I trust tomorrow sees a visit from a very special TRAIN, possibly known as the "Oxo Special" The coach is excellent as a layout coach Gilbert as both you and Tony have said and the camera can be very cruel to the very best of models. Kind Regards, Derek Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidw Posted June 21, 2014 Share Posted June 21, 2014 Looks really good to me Gilbert - looking forwards to seeing others. The corridor handrail - how big is that - I mean how thick is it? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stewartingram Posted June 21, 2014 Share Posted June 21, 2014 I have to say, I do love the term "layout coach". Sums it up perfectly and shows a good frame of mind. Also the way TW calls it his "trainset". No pompous better-than-thou attitude there. Stewart 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gr.king Posted June 21, 2014 Share Posted June 21, 2014 I mean how thick is it? We don't say that these days. The PC way to enquire is to ask about its level of learning disability..... 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Mallard60022 Posted June 21, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 21, 2014 The handrail is 0.45 mm brass wire. How do I know? I was watching another of TW's conversions and learning how to glaze (no, the coach, not me going glazed) just this week. P Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwealleans Posted June 21, 2014 Share Posted June 21, 2014 I use 0.7 for mine. I don't know OTTOMH what the size of the real thing is. Is it me or do those in that coach look slightly low? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Wright Posted June 21, 2014 Share Posted June 21, 2014 I use 0.7 for mine. I don't know OTTOMH what the size of the real thing is. Is it me or do those in that coach look slightly low? The rail might be a tiny bit low, since it was done by 'rack of eye'. It should be below the horizontal halfway line of the large windows and half-way on the door windows. My reference is page 42 in the Harris 'bible'. Comparing the model coach with the coach in the picture on p. 42, I'd say it's not far off, but a little low. I've also used .7mm brass wire in the past for the rail but it looks too thick in my opinion. I wonder what Larry uses? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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