Peterborough North

[Mallard60022]

Gilbert, what time will you be getting here on your new carbon race bike (36E) tomorrow ready for the onwards ride up to Skipton?

Sincerely Phil

[coachmann]

These pictures of real modelling are a delight to the eye and an inspiration. That A4 looks superb

Edited July 3, 2014 by coachmann

[Barry O]

I spy a Pullman rake - is that the posh bit???

[LNER4479]

Here is a brief taster as to the identity of "something posh". Plenty more later, but this is all I have time for now. It is really the train rather than the loco which is the star this time, but this is a nice introductory shot - in fact I like it sufficiently that I shall photoshop it thoroughly when I have time. This really was the state in which Top Shed A4's were turned out for the prestigious trains during Peter Townend's tenure as Shedmaster. OK, it would not have looked like this after already covering nearly 200 miles on the Up service if it was a day of bad weather, but obviously on this occasion the sun has shone throughout.

TT1.jpg

Not a bad pic for post #6000 GN - congrats on that   (just need to get to #6030 as soon as possible   )

[great northern]

Gilbert, what time will you be getting here on your new carbon race bike (36E) tomorrow ready for the onwards ride up to Skipton?

Sincerely Phil

Sorry Phil, got a puncture.

[davidw]

Any pictures coming Gilbert?

[great northern]

Some of you may recall that a while ago I posted a lot of stuff about Pullman cars. My intention was to add the missing Yorkshire Pullman to the Tees-Tyne and Queen of Scots rakes which I already have, and indeed that is still the case. This got Tim and I involved in a good deal of research, and rapidly spiralling ideas as to how things could be improved. Alas my Tees -Tyne Pullman rake didn't bear close scrutiny either, and that has now been augmented and improved, and photos follow to show what has been done.

 

The intention is that I shall write articles for BRM about the convoluted history of Pullmans, and Tim will do articles to go with them showing how he converted Hornby cars into specific vehicles. I shall only give brief details on here, and I'll leave it to Tim as to how much he wishes to add. Here then are portraits of the individual cars that now make up the Tees-Tyne rake.

Second brake 248 starts us off, and its history is in fact one of the most convoluted of all. Built for the International Sleeping Car company, it was one of several which from new worked in Italy. Originally named Minerva, by the time it returned to our shores that name had been allocated to a new car, so it became Lady Dalziel, and was designated a 26 seat guard parlour brake. It then worked in the Golden Arrow pre WW2. In 1948 though it was again remodelled into a 30 seat third class parlour brake, renumbered as Car 248, and transferred to the Eastern Region, where it worked in the TTP throughout the '50's. It appeared in many contemporary photos, and Tim finally managed to identify it. In 1959 yet another rebuild and identity change occurred, and the car became significantly different in appearance, but not so significantly as when not long after it became a First class parlour car again, as it had been at the start of its life, and was named Athene! Probably thoroughly confused by now, it appears to have done little work, and was withdrawn in 1963.

 

Car 248 in fact appears in the Hornby range, as below.

As such, I'm afraid it is wrong. I'm not getting at Hornby though, as the history set out above requires a lot of research, and of course research time is a factor in the eventual cost of an item, whether it be locomotive or rolling stock. Now, you would think, wouldn't you, that this car might be the donor to be converted into the correct car, but life isn't that simple. One starts with this.

Which is a standard Hornby First class Parlour car. Logical I suppose - Tim has just done the same as the rebuilders of the original did. OK, the rest of these require nowhere near as much explanation you will be pleased to know. On to the next car in the rake, Car 32, a Second Kitchen car.

This was the most complex cut and shut job of all, so far anyway. I'll leave Tim to amplify the donor car(s), and how he did it. Car 32 always kept the same identity, and was always a Kitchen second, but was extensively rebuilt, and by 1958 unique. It also retained matchboard sides to the end. It appear in many prototype photos next to Car 248, and again it was Tim who identified it, and did the necessary to produce this. The camera has done it no favours though, and makes the matchboarding look faded and scruffy, which it isn't, I can assure you. I was asked to put this one on in low resolution, as Tim was worried that the various necessary joins would show up in high res. Well, they might, but the camera can be very cruel indeed at showing things which aren't obvious to the naked eye. I couldn't see the joins till Tim pointed them out, and neither could Jason(Sandside), even when looking at very close range indeed.

Now things get much simpler. Juana is a 1928 steel sided Parlour First, built for the LNER. The donor for this is a Hornby Railroad PF. It is an old tooling, but apart from the fact that the bogies are the wrong type, and in the wrong place, it is surprisingly accurate, so new bogies correctly placed, which also reduces the ride height, is all that is needed, apart from repainting the glaring white interior and the silver roof! As with all the cars he has done, Tim has also made sure the lining and insignia are correct for 1958.

Hornby only do the Parlour First and Second brake, so Nilar, a Kitchen First, was created some time ago by John Houlden, using Comet sides on a donor Railroad car. I well remember puzzling over the name of this car, which I seemed to see on every spotting trip.

Unique to the TTP, the Hadrian Bar was a Bar Kitchen Second. John altered the Hornby Daffodil Bar when it appeared, but alas now we have more pictures we find that it is not quite right. Will, it get changed? Probably not.

Agatha is another First Parlour, produced by Tim as he did with Juana.

Car 82 is a Kitchen Second. Again Hornby don't do it, so John Houlden used replacement Comet sides as with Nilar.

Finally Car 80, a Second Brake, bogies and ride height altered as described earlier.

A couple of shots showing most of the rake, all now riding at the same height, and colour matched as closely as possible.

And, for those who have had the stamina to read this far, another train portrait.

And, as promised, a photoshopped version of the very first photo.

 

There you have it. Eight cars in the TTP, different types, different histories, a couple of them unique. Five all steel cars, and three wooden bodied ones, pretty representative I think of the usual formation. All I have to do now is weather the underframes - even on Pullmans they weren't squeaky clean.

 

Last but by no means least, many thanks to Tim, who has put many hours into these, both in research and in the actual modelling. On Tuesday he worked until gone 11pm, putting on very fiddly lining transfers, well done mate!

 

[Alister_G]

Wonderful stuff Gilbert, great photos and fascinating information.

 

Thank you.

[davidw]

Spectacular

[LNER4479]

Brilliant. Just brilliant

[bbishop]

Dumb question, but why the variable window spacing on Rosemary and Car 248?

 

Bill

[Timara]

Dumb question, but why the variable window spacing on Rosemary and Car 248?

 

Bill

 

Bill,

 

From memory, the narrowest window pillar is due to it being a single seat and not two facing ones.  There's something in the book on them that describes the whys and wherefores of that particular design.  The current Minerva (III) in the VSOE is from the same batch and looks exactly like Rosemary, though with Gresley ex-EMU bogies instead!

 

HTH,

[Mallard60022]

That is truly one of the best looking sets of shots of 'stock' from a particular train on PN. Absolutely fantastic modelling and, of course, such a great layout for it to run on.

One of the things I most like about PN and others like Little Bytham, is that the photo's give you a really different viewing dimension compared to looking at the real things where one cannot get one's balding dome into the places the camera gets!

Sadly I cannot remember knowingly seeing a Pullman Train on the ECML so this and those elsewhere give me the opportunity to enjoy those scenes just 55 or so years later.

Lovely......

Phil @ 36E

[The Stationmaster]

That is truly one of the best looking sets of shots of 'stock' from a particular train on PN. Absolutely fantastic modelling and, of course, such a great layout for it to run on.

One of the things I most like about PN and others like Little Bytham, is that the photo's give you a really different viewing dimension compared to looking at the real things where one cannot get one's balding dome into the places the camera gets!

Sadly I cannot remember knowingly seeing a Pullman Train on the ECML so this and those elsewhere give me the opportunity to enjoy those scenes just 55 or so years later.

Lovely......

Phil @ 36E

I would have clicked 'aqgree' but I can remember seeing Pullman trains on the ECML, in the shape of the Tees Tyne Pullman.

Edited July 5, 2014 by The Stationmaster

[cheesysmith]

That train on the earlier page with mallard on the front, the first coach look like its drunk. Bit of a lean on to one side methinks.

 

Ps-love the Pullmans, one question cause I can't remember, but have you done the master cutler? Only asking because I cannot remember if in the years your layout is set if it was a ECML train or still a GC one.

Edited July 4, 2014 by cheesysmith

[Mallard60022]

Still a GC one.

P

[Tony Wright]

Some splendid cutting and shutting indeed. 

 

What will finish the rake off are the roof-mounted boards on some of the cars carrying the train's name. The diminutive train names carried in clips on the brake cars didn't appear, as far as I know, until the introduction of the Mk. 1 cars in 1960/'61. Strangely, none of the more modern cars ever carried the Pullman train's name. 

 

A glance at the oft-cited shot in Keith Pirt's splendid little book on Retford showing MALLARD hauling the TTP on Christmas Eve 1958 (with one extra car) shows at least five of the cars sporting roof-mounted boards, including the first brake. In his later little book on Retford, on page 51 the 'Yorkshire Pullman' is pictured and at least three of the nine cars carry roof-mounted boards, also including the first brake. The picture was taken in May 1960 and all of the cars are the slab-sided variety. The two really visible brake cars do not have the small clips.

 

I've also looked through several of Eric Treacy's and Colin Walker's books, and they show much the same. Indeed, I can find no picture of a slab-sided brake pre-1960/'61 with any form of clips below the cantrail at the guard's end of the brake car. I don't think the 1928 all-steel cars were built with the little clips; the earlier-built cars certainly weren't. 

 

Ian Wilson of Pacific Models does the whole range of roof-mounted boards. .

[Andy Y]

Followers of this topic may wish to see Peterborough North in October's BRM - if so please cast your vote - http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/87624-brm-october-rmweb-edition-choose-your-content/

[Tony Wright]

Further to my comments on the substantial work regarding the production of the TTP on Peterborough North, may I make a few further observations, please?

 

In my opinion, the kitchen windows on the 1928-built cars should not be white all the way up. The ventilator area, I believe, was clear glass. I made this 'mistake' myself when producing my 'Queen of Scots' 20+ years ago. As usual, I cannot find my 'conclusive' picture - that in Modellers' Back Track, the second of two issues which contained a history of Pullman cars. I know it's difficult to be absolutely certain (especially if the sliding ventilators are open) but pictures taken when the cars were cascaded to the SR post-'61 appear to show this. Can anyone confirm (by finding the relevant feature) or deny this, please?

 

Earlier-built cars appear to have a frosted effect in the kitchen windows. 

 

 

 

 

Here's my own Car No. 82, a meld of Comet sides, Keen (Kean?) bogies and a Hornby 'Railroad' donor. Ian Rathbone painted it.

 

The problem with the 'Railroad' cars, even if they're basically accurate and new bogies are fitted, is the deeply-recessed windows. This is especially exacerbated if they're included in a rake with Comet-sided vehicles. 

 

 

This is most-evident in a tight-perspective shot like this, taken on my Little Bytham layout where the leading Parlour Brake Third has previously seen service in an armoured train (and other cars in the rake)! I live with this anomaly (at least for the moment) because I understand the cost imperatives involved but it is my intention to rebuild them with Comet sides.

 

And, yes, I have to live with my trainset's track being all bullhead. In 1958, the fast lines were flat-bottom.

 

 

 

There's no doubt where Comet sides have been grafted to a 'Railroad' Pullman, the bogies replaced and a full pro' repaint undertaken (Ian Rathbone), the results can look quite special, especially in use on a layout.

 

 

 

Another issue with the 'Railroad' cars as supplied is the grossly over-scale rendition of the internal glazing bars. Though I've fitted the correct bogies to my own Car No. 80, those bars (and the 'corridor' grab rail in the Parlour Firsts) are really awful. It is my intention to replace them. The little clips for the train's name are also clearly present. As mentioned previously, they should not be there, as far as I know, in 1958. 

 

The passing TTP is composed of Hornby 'Railroad' brakes (on the correct bogies) and Bachmann Mk.1s. Because of my obvious hypocrisy, such a set would have needed a very large time machine to send it three years into the past, but I live with it. Once more, the deeply recessed window reveals on the leading brake are evident.

 

My apologies if these pictures have appeared elsewhere, but I hope they prove of some little use. It is not my intention to criticise what amounts to a very creditable piece of work, particularly the research undertaken and the ingenuity shown. I wish I had some of the qualities necessary for that.

Edited July 5, 2014 by Tony Wright

[Taz]

Tony, I'm curious to know what you have done (if anything) about the livery colour rendition difference between the Hornby and Bachmann Pullmans? It's difficult to tell from the photo above but I recall you mentioning it (and putting it aside for another day) in the excellent Modifying RTR Right Track DVD.

[great northern]

That train on the earlier page with mallard on the front, the first coach look like its drunk. Bit of a lean on to one side methinks.

 

Ps-love the Pullmans, one question cause I can't remember, but have you done the master cutler? Only asking because I cannot remember if in the years your layout is set if it was a ECML train or still a GC one.

The camera has been at it again! The train hasn't moved since the photo was taken, and I can assure you that the first coach is not leaning. It is the zoom function that does it, I think. As to the Master Cutler, well, that is a bit of a problem. It didn't start running till the Winter timetable of 1958, and my sequence is based on the Summer WTT, so no MC. I do however have Deltic, and she didn't appear on the ECML till Feb '59....... Oh, the corners into which we paint ourselves.

[great northern]

I've been without internet, e-mail, satellite TV and land line for 19 hours, so as I don't have a mobile phone, let alone any of these I - thingies, I had no means of communication at all. I've had a quick look, so far, at some of my books, including the two Ford volumes, and all I have achieved is to make things murkier still. According to Ford the steel sided cars had, when built, " a large full length frosted arctic glass window with a louvre in the kitchen, and another in the adjacent corridor." The Ford books have the advantage of a number of close up side on views of individual cars, and I've looked at all the post war photos of steel sided kitchen cars. Can I find one with white windows, all or part of the way up? No I can't! These include shots dated in the '50's, and quite a lot in the '60's on the Southern too. Some of them may have frosted glass - it is hard to tell because of reflections, but no evidence of any white windows at all. My Golden Age car doesn't have any. I know to my cost that Golden Age products are not always entirely correct, so that isn't conclusive, but it does add to the mystery. I'll keep looking when I have more time.

[Alister_G]

I've been without internet, e-mail, satellite TV and land line for 19 hours, so as I don't have a mobile phone, let alone any of these I - thingies, I had no means of communication at all.

 

So... time for golf...

 

[great northern]

The latest Hornby Gresley conversion has now rolled off the "Wright with a bit of Barnatt" production line, this one using Comet sides to create a Dia 114 Brake Second. I really do like these coaches, always have, so this one is particularly welcome.

I've been entrusted again with the painting of the roofs and ends, despite the deficiencies of my last effort. I do hope these meet with Sir's approval, as I don't want to get the ruler when I next visit deepest darkest Lincolnshire.

[Tony Wright]

The latest Hornby Gresley conversion has now rolled off the "Wright with a bit of Barnatt" production line, this one using Comet sides to create a Dia 114 Brake Second. I really do like these coaches, always have, so this one is particularly welcome.

brake 1.jpg

brake 2.jpg

I've been entrusted again with the painting of the roofs and ends, despite the deficiencies of my last effort. I do hope these meet with Sir's approval, as I don't want to get the ruler when I next visit deepest darkest Lincolnshire.

Spot on my friend - award yourself a star!

 

Perhaps we should come clean and say that both of us forgot to fit the above-door ventilators and the guard's ducket. But, they can be done retrospectively, and, as layout coaches those of this type really look the part. We've yet to source battery boxes for this one as well, because the originals had to be removed for this diagram. 

 

The turnbuckle underframe (ex-Hornby Sleeper) really does add character to these vehicles. 

 

Though it might have been mentioned before, a joint article on how these coaches were made will appear before long in BRM.