WW1 WD 'Parrot', WD 'Poll', WW1 'Warflat', NER 'Quad', LNER 'Flat S' conundrum

[Mol_PMB]

This is a thread about the bogie bolster wagons built for the War Department in the First World War, and subsequent usage.

In particular the wagons known as WW1 WD 'Parrot', WD 'Poll', WW1 'Warflat', NER 'Quad', LNER 'Flat S'.

Hopefully we can avoid getting sidetracked by the similar WW2 Warflats, WW2 Parrots (which were entirely different), Rectanks, Warwells and other similar beasts.

 

This first post gives the modelling background to this thread and isn't strictly relevant to the prototype information, I'll get onto that in the second post...

The story involves some possibly foolish purchases on ebay (I can't be the only one who has ever done that?) and now I'm trying to work out what to do with them!

 

A couple of years ago I built a 7mm scale MM1 models kit for a WWI 'Warflat' and completed it to represent one of those vehicles purchased by the Manchester Ship Canal in the 1920s. Both the WD and the MSC called these wagons 'Parrot'.

More recently when I decided I wanted to make another one. MM1 models is no more and I couldn't find any of their kits secondhand, so I was keeping a lookout on ebay for the older ABS models Warflat kits. For some months no kits came up for sale, but then I managed to buy a built-up ABS Warflat, finished in LNER livery as a 'Flat S'. Once I received it and took a closer look, I found some significant errors in construction (e.g. bogie sideframes upside-down) and that it was fitted with coarse scale wheels. Not as ideal as I had thought! Possibly recoverable though. Here's the ebay purchase in grey compared to my MSC version in black:

Then a few weeks later I found an unbuilt ABS kit O.496 for an NER 'Quad' or LNER 'Flat S'. That's the same as a WW1 Warflat, I thought, that's exactly what I need. Except when it arrived and I opened the box I found it wasn't the same as a WW1 Warflat at all! At this stage I realised that the complete secondhand model I had bought previously labelled 'Flat S' was also erroneously lettered.

Finally, a proper WW1 Warflat kit came up on ebay, kit O.691, and I bought that too. Here are the two kits:

#

The same set of instructions applies to both kits, but the parts are different, and here's the section giving a brief prototype history:

In the O.496 kit (NER Quad) there was also a prototype photo, perhaps acquired by the original purchaser of the kit as I wouldn't expect to find this in an ABS kit:

As you can see, this is not the same as a WWI Warflat. The most obvious difference is that the solebar channels face inwards rather than outwards. The O.496 kit builds this wagon.

[Mol_PMB]

After some searching online I discovered that the NER ‘Quad’ / LNER ‘Flat S’ were called ‘Poll’ by the War Department. There’s some very useful information and photos of them here, including some photos and diagrams:

http://www.railalbum.co.uk/railway-wagons/military/ww1-war-department-poll-wagons-1.htm

 

http://www.railalbum.co.uk/railway-wagons/military/images/ww1-pollwagons/wd5672-polls-45t.jpg

 

At first glance it appears that the ‘Parrot’ (WW1 Warflat) and the ‘Poll’ were functionally equivalent, being 40’ long over headstocks with a 45t capacity, and had the same type of bogies. But there are significant differences beyond that, not just the orientation of the solebar flanges. The ‘Poll’ has 27' bogie centres whereas the ‘Parrot’ has 30'. The ‘Poll’ fishbelly is much shorter than the ‘Parrot’ (even shorter than would be expected from the reduced bogie spacing). Although the ‘Poll’ is rated for 45 tons, it is of much lighter appearance than the ‘Parrot’.

The ‘Parrot’ as-built had support jacks mounted on the headstocks under the buffers; these are not fitted to the ‘Poll’ even in the photo of one in original WD condition (though it does have continental-style screw coupling and safety chains). This might suggest that the ‘Poll’ type was not intended for carrying armoured vehicles driven on/off along the length of the train, although there are photos of them loaded with armoured vehicles.

So I’m trying to find out more about the ‘Poll’ and subsequent use with the LNER and BR. There are some puzzles:

How many were built and how many worked for NER/LNER/BR?

·        The web page linked above says that the WD number series was 5663 to 5771 indicating 109 wagons in total.

·        There are photos of them in use in France and they may not all have made it back to the UK

·        The ABS kit instructions say that 78 were built.

·        The web page says that some, perhaps all, were sold to the NER.

·        The web page gives an LNER number series 139622 to 139671 ‘plus various non-sequential numbers’ implying more than 50 wagons in total.

Why were they different from the normal ‘Parrot’ Warflats?

·        The ABS kit instructions note that they had many redundant rivet holes, and suggests that they may have been made from parts intended for some other design.

·        The web page includes a diagram of a ‘Poll’ which includes the words ‘South African Type’ which is intriguing…

What modifications were carried out?

·        I’ve seen one statement that the NER added the bolsters, but that seems unlikely given that there are photos of them with bolsters in WD livery.

·        However, it appears that many lost their bolsters to become flat wagons, perhaps both in WW1 and WW2.

·        Others seem to have had the number of bolsters increased from 4 to 6.

·        Some were equipped for working on train ferries, which must have included lashing rings etc but perhaps they were also fitted with continuous brakes?

How long did they last?

·        The known number series suggest that the size of the fleet may have gradually dwindled over time.

·        There are a couple of photos of them in use in the early to mid 1950s, both as flats and bolsters

·        The web page says that one ferry-fitted ‘Poll’ may have remained in BR service until 1970.

 

Having mulled over all of this info relating to the ‘Poll’, I realised that I didn’t actually know the full story of the ‘Parrot’ (WW1 Warflat) either!

 

Can anyone point me towards more information on these two similar but distinctly different vehicles?

 

Cheers,

Mol

 

 

[Mol_PMB]

Some further information on the 'Poll' thanks to a friend with the full set of LNER wagon books:

 

LNER Wagons Volume 2 states that in 1947 there were 13 'Poll' wagons to NER diagram D7, while Volume 4B states that at the same date there were 23 to LNER diagram 28, with a further 40 to LNER diagram 180 [i.e. a total of 76]

The number of diagram 180 wagons had dropped to 35 by September 1959, which is also given as the date the type became extinct [possibly an error unless there was a sudden cull?].
NER diagram D7 and LNER diagram 28 both represent the wagons running as BOGIE BOLSTER Bs (to use post 1940 terminology), while LNER diagram 180 covers those converted to FLAT ES.

 

 

[bécasse]

I had known the late Adrian Swain since c1970 (even before he started ABS Models) and he was always meticulous in his researches, so if said something in the instructions or incorporated something in the kit he would have had good reason for doing so. That doesn't always mean it was right, even the best sources can mislead, but it is a reasonable presumption that if something is incorporated in one of his kits it was also incorporated in at least some of the prototype vehicles that the constructed kit is intended to portray.

[Mol_PMB]

Many thanks.

 

I wasn't trying to suggest that the ABS kit was wrong, sorry if I gave that impression. I'm a great fan of the ABS kits.

In this case, Adrian made two different kits for two different vehicles, and I was wrong in assuming that the prototypes were effectively the same.

 

The effect of my mistake is that I've ended up with a kit for a 'Poll' as well as the 'Parrot' I was seeking, and now I'm trying to find out more about the 'Poll' so I can decide whether it can also represent a suitable prototype for my modelling period and location. The 'Poll' wagons seem to have gone through several modifications during their lives and I was hoping to find a bit more information about them, and ideally some more photos, so that if the 'Poll' is suitable then I will know whether to fit (for example) no bolsters, 4 bolsters or 6 bolsters, and what the livery should be.

 

Cheers,

Mol

 

P.S. I can't help wondering if a 'Parrot' was called that because it was similar to a 'Macaw' (though that may be an oversimplification in the eyes of RMweb's resident wagon-and-parrot specialist)

I wonder where the name 'Poll' came from?

[John Isherwood]

5 minutes ago, Mol_PMB said:

I wonder where the name 'Poll' came from?

 

More than one PARROT has been called POLL(Y)! 😄

 

CJI.

[Steamport Southport]

I think Poll is the old name for Pollock (or could be seen as more polite). Definitely seen Poll in supermarkets and fishmongers. Many Telegraph Code names were from fish and other animals.

 

But could be a shortened version of POLLEN which was the GWR Code for a Girder Wagon. But that doesn't seem likely as they are totally different types of vehicles.

 

https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/gwrgirdwagpollen

 

 

 

Jason

 

[Wickham Green too]

14 hours ago, cctransuk said:

More than one PARROT has been called POLL(Y)! 😄

I railway terminology, more likely POLL-E !

[Cwmtwrch]

18 hours ago, Mol_PMB said:

Some were equipped for working on train ferries, which must have included lashing rings etc but perhaps they were also fitted with continuous brakes?

Use of power brakes on bogie flats/bolsters/etc. was not usual in Britain at that time, and comparable wagons, such as the [also ex-WD] NER/LNER Boplate B were not so fitted, although they also had what I assume to be lashing rings, two each side. Air brake equipment or through pipes may be a possibility, I don't know, but would presumably have been removed on repatriation.

16 hours ago, Mol_PMB said:

LNER diagram 180 covers those converted to FLAT ES.

Flat ES is the BR code for what the LNER called Flat S. The same diagram page [50] is also shown for the Flat EU in BR booklet BR87209 of 31/12/49.

16 hours ago, Mol_PMB said:

The number of diagram 180 wagons had dropped to 35 by September 1959, which is also given as the date the type became extinct [possibly an error unless there was a sudden cull?].

Not impossible, as they would have been over 40 years old, and BR would have had a lot of more modern bogie Bolsters, Borails and Flats by then. It is also possible that they were still in existence in 9/1959 but in sidings awaiting scrapping. The contemporary Boplate B still appears in BR 87209 of December 1958, as do the Flat ES and Flat EU, but also seems to have become extinct about the same time.

[Mol_PMB]

Many thanks, that's very helpful.

 

When thinking of the possibility of power brakes on the ferry-equipped examples, I was considering the statement that one survived in BR ferry service until 1970, by which time I would have thought that it must have been at least piped for use on the continent?

 

Thanks also for the mention of the Boplate B, which I hadn't realised was another similar-sized ex-WD vehicle. A trussed solebar rather than a fishbelly. Not listed here, which is the best reference I've found so far on the WD WWI wagons:

http://www.railalbum.co.uk/railway-wagons/military/index.htm

 

I think in general it looks as if the ex-Poll vehicles were withdrawn too soon for my main modelling era (mid to late 1960s, Manchester Ship Canal) although they would have been seen in Manchester Docks in the 1950s, surely where this one was destined:

http://www.railalbum.co.uk/railway-wagons/military/images/ww1-pollwagons/39669-flats-gorton-02feb1953-rr282bp.jpg

 

I'm considering an earlier cameo of a military train on the MSC in 1943, and an ex-Poll as a Flat S in LNER WW2 wartime livery might be quite appropriate for that.

Cheers,

Mol

[Fat Controller]

13 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

I think Poll is the old name for Pollock (or could be seen as more polite). Definitely seen Poll in supermarkets and fishmongers. Many Telegraph Code names were from fish and other animals.

 

But could be a shortened version of POLLEN which was the GWR Code for a Girder Wagon. But that doesn't seem likely as they are totally different types of vehicles.

 

https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/gwrgirdwagpollen

 

 

 

Jason

 

To further muddy the waters, 'Pollock' was the FISHKND given to three Bolster-E converted to run on 2-axle air-braked chassis.......This was in the early-1980s, however.

[Mark Saunders]

The LNER special diagram and wagon numbers, for bolster B.

 

 

[Mark Saunders]

And flat S

[Mol_PMB]

That's super, many thanks Mark!

[Mol_PMB]

Based on the lists from Mark, and other data sources referenced in the previous posts, here's a draft list of the 78 'Poll' wagons known to have been used by LNER / BR:

 

 

Is anyone aware of more photos of these?

Cheers,

Mol

[Cwmtwrch]

Page 241 of LNER Wagons 4B gives details of the four altered for train ferry use; the alterations were the fitting of a Westinghouse through pipe and the addition continental lettering [i.e. capacity and so on]. It also states that they were not allowed beyond Zeebrugge. Page 242 gives a clearer version of the drawing of 139643 than that in http://www.railalbum.co.uk/railway-wagons/military/ww1-war-department-poll-wagons-1.htm, which I presume you are already aware of, although some of the text has been cropped.

Page 257 shows photographs of 139659 as a Flat S at Farnborough, carrying two different loads of small tanks; the date is described as "during WW2" [if so it's very early in WW2].

[Mol_PMB]

Ah, super, many thanks. I’ll have another chat with my friend who has a copy of that book. 

 

It sounds like I can build the Poll kit as a flat in LNER wartime livery with a load of military vehicles to go with my MSC Parrot and USA tank on loan to the MSC. 

Cheers,

Mol

 

 

[lanchester]

I take it 'Manchester' has been painted out to fool Jerry into thinking the location is one of England's many other ship canals? Shame the wagon code name isn't 'Pike'.

[Mol_PMB]

A little more research and another book purchase has led me to a list of the WD numbers of the various bogie flats/bolsters used in France in WW1.

• 5301-5350 were former GWR Macaws, strengthened to carry 30t..
• 5601-5612 were former NER bogie wagons (not sure exactly which type), rated at 40t.
• 5663-5771 were the 'Poll' type with pressed fishbelly underframe, built new for the WD and rated at 45t. Many of these were bought by the NER post-war.
• 39201-39450 were bogie wagons built new for the WD and rated at 30t.
• 39451-39700 were the 'Parrot' type with fishbelly underframe, built new for the WD and rated at 40t. Many of these were bought by the MR and LNWR post-war, some also went to the MSC and others remained with the WD or stayed in Europe. Later known as WWI Warflat.
• 65001-65140 were bogie 'low sided and flat' wagons built new for the WD and rated at 35t.
• 460101-460120 were former GNR 40-ton opens which must have been bogie vehicles so are included here for completeness.

Some of these wagons became LNER 'Boplate B', but I'm not sure whether they were from the 39201-39450 or 65001-65140 group. 

This list omits the 'Rectank' wagons for some reason, of which there were hundreds. Possibly because the mostly worked within the UK and this list was compiled in France.

I'm not sure whether the list is otherwise complete (for bogie flats/bolsters)

 

The need for the jacks under the headstocks was realised after many wagons had been built without them. Some (but not all) were retro-fitted and the later vehicles built with them from new.

[Cwmtwrch]

2 hours ago, Mol_PMB said:

Some of these wagons became LNER 'Boplate B', but I'm not sure whether they were from the 39201-39450 or 65001-65140 group. 

The Boplate B was rated at 30T, and Tatlow gives the total bought by the NER/LNER as 247, so they are from the 39201-450 batch. Curiously, the few 1950s photos I have show 32T on the wagons, even though it's still 30T in the 12/1958 listing,

Edited February 2 by Cwmtwrch
wrong number

[Wickham Green too]

2 hours ago, Mol_PMB said:

...460101-460120 were former GNR 40-ton opens which must have been bogie vehicles so are included here for completeness. ...

Sounds like the brick wagons !!?!

[Steamport Southport]

16 hours ago, Wickham Green too said:

Sounds like the brick wagons !!?!

 

Which were 50T, not built until 1920 and numbered in the 451001 to 451025 number range, LNER ones were 163535 to 163559.

 

 

Jason

[Wickham Green too]

Suggestions on a postcard ....... ? ....................................

[Mol_PMB]

I’m as puzzled as you are!

My list comes from the book advertised here:
http://borht.org.uk/WW1.htm

The printed book contains some publishing errors and a corrigendum can be downloaded to deal with those:

http://borht.org.uk/documents/WW1Corrigenda.pdf
Actually the wagon list of interest is in the corrigendum so you don’t need the book itself for this particular data. Though there is plenty more of interest in it. 

 

Mol