Flat Bottom Rail, Track base and Turnout Baseplates for Scratch Building

[NFWEM57]

I recently attended the Autumn weekend Track Building course at Missenden Abbey, the last one to be tutored by Norman Solomon before he departs for pastures new.  I successfully built a B9 crossover in EM gauge  and am now looking to build a similar crossover in flat bottom rail as my intended layout wil have FB with concrete sleepers for the main line and  BH and wooden sleepers for the branch Iines.  And this is where the problems began...!  I have discovered that, and please forgive my ignorance:

• There are basic FB turnout templates in Templot but no chair information.  No C&L templates for FB
• There are no concrete 'timbers'  or 'sleepers' for FB rail.
• EMGS may possible have  the equivalent of S1 chairs but they are out of stock (Baseplate Clip & Bolt for FB Rail - pack 250)
• There are no plastic turnout chairs for FB rail that I could find although I imagine the slide chairs might well be similar. 

 

I have purchased a copy of British Railway Track - Design Construction and Maintenance 5th edition, which is mainly concerned with FB, to supplement my 3rd edition, which is mainly concerned with BH.  

 

I am hoping I have just not found the entrance to Aladdin's Cave where I will find all the parts required but that is probably wishful thinking.  Of course the next generation of track builders may not know what Bullhead is as they will probably be building layouts for the modern era.  N gauge are well catered for in this by British Finescales excellent all rail kits for FB turnouts with concrete sleepers.

 

I think this is going to be an interesting voyage of discovery.  However, I can't be the first to want to go down this route so any and all vice most welcome. 

 

Patrick

Edited December 3, 2023 by NFWEM57
Updated Title

[ikcdab]

Fantastic to you for handbuilding track. Norman knows his stuff 

FB turnouts are not easy, all aspects are complicated by the rail cross-section!

There is a reason why the prototype continued with bullhead turnouts combined with FB plain track.

I'm not sure what era you are modelling, I suggest you might wish to follow prototype practice and stick with BH turnouts on your mainline.

Ian

[NFWEM57]

8 hours ago, ikcdab said:

I'm not sure what era you are modelling,

Hi Ian,

 

Thank you for the reply and information.  The era's are 5 to 7 and 9 of the GWML in Somerset specifically early 1960s to mid 1980s and a jump to the current period, 2015 onwards (with modern traction and rail charter mixed in).   A broader McKinley approach on a much simpler layout.

 

Looking at archive images of the area in question the BH plain track on the mainline was replaced by FB around 1980 although other parts of the network switched over earlier.  Remaining with BH turnouts on the mainline is an option but it would be better if the mainline element had FB.  I have already decided that mainline signalling will be colour light with motorised semaphore for the branch lines and all turnouts powered to eliminate the point rod and signal cable modelling burden.

 

I find it difficult to believe that in this day and age the only solution is bullhead for turnouts..!  Ah well, nothing ventured nothing gained.   I will read the first few chapters of the 5th edition and see what can be done, the book is reasonably well illustrated.

 

I will upload progress periodically.

 

Patrick

Edited November 24, 2023 by NFWEM57
typo

[Dungrange]

11 hours ago, NFWEM57 said:

However, I can't be the first to want to go down this route so any and all vice most welcome. 

 

You're not, but I haven't found the door to Aladdin's cave either.  Colin Craig used to produce a range of flat bottom turnouts on copper clad sleepers, but I don't think these are available anymore.  Hopefully British Finescale may produce some of their N gauge range in 4mm scale in time, but that's no use if you're looking to build now.

[NFWEM57]

7 hours ago, Dungrange said:

 

You're not, but I haven't found the door to Aladdin's cave either.  Colin Craig used to produce a range of flat bottom turnouts on copper clad sleepers, but I don't think these are available anymore.  Hopefully British Finescale may produce some of their N gauge range in 4mm scale in time, but that's no use if you're looking to build now.

Thank you for your reply.  I am not alone then..! 

[Siberian Snooper]

Even now there's a lot of F/B turnouts still sitting on timbers, take a look at your local station or junction and see what it's made of. The plain track will be on concrete, especially if it's high speed and/or has heavy freight traffic.

 

Loops could be either and sidings could still be in bullhead.

 

 

[Wayne Kinney]

On 24/11/2023 at 17:13, NFWEM57 said:

Thank you for your reply.  I am not alone then..! 

Hi Patrick,

 

Buzz us an email as I have loads of prototype FB drawings which might be of help?

[NFWEM57]

12 hours ago, Wayne Kinney said:

FB

Hi Wayne,  thank you for the offer.  I will email when I get back from sunny cornwall later today.  IT limited at present.

[griffgriff]

An observation. I recently built a flat bottomed turnout for the first time. Obviously, they are different beasts to bullhead turnouts. The bad news. I found the switch tricky because of the cross section Good news if working in EM or OO the common crossing was a breeze.

 

Griff

[hayfield]

Griff

 

A simple solution to the switch is to use short switch rails fixed to the closure rails by plastic rail joiners, they work very well as hinges.. Means a bit more wiring but very effective

[NFWEM57]

13 hours ago, griffgriff said:

The bad news. I found the switch tricky because of the cross section Good news if working in EM or OO the common crossing was a breeze.

Thank you for sharing your experience.  Reading through the 5th edition of British Railway Track - Design, Construction and Maintenance I noted that modern turnouts do not incline track 1:20 but keep it upright thus simplifying matters. But the plaining of switch rails is a bit more involved.. The main sticking point is the chairs!   Why is all this so difficult and seemingly controversial?  

[NFWEM57]

I have ordered the PECO Pandrol and Slide Baseplates, the C&L Baseplates, some FB rail and will see what can be made.  There is a good thread on the Scale  Four forum describing how to make the switch blades, crossings and wing/check rails https://www.scalefour.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7455

 

I'll try my hand at a B6 for my test track.

[NFWEM57]

An update.

 

Various baseplates and sleepers have arrived along with rail from 2 sources.  

 

Rail

One from PECO, code 83, and one from EMGS, again code 83.  PECO unsuitable, way undersize, but EMGS almost spot on wrt prototype, slightly oversize head (+0.02mm)  and undersize foot (-0.02mm) so will require the slightest of adjustments to a spare set of roller gauges (DCC Concepts) but 3 point gauges are just about fine (DCC Concepts).  Alan Gibson check rail gauge is also fine.  The base thickness is 0.41mm, the same as PECO code 83.  

 

Still waiting for rail from one more vendor and have requested dimensions of code 82 from C&L and code 75 flat bottom from Marcway.

 

Track Base

The PECO Code 83 rattles around in the baseplates so no good. 

The EMGS Code 83 rail is a very tight fit in the ExactoScale track base but it does fit - just.   It might be a struggle to make up long lengths but see solution in later post.  Sleepers are 1.83mm thick at the edge and 1.24mm in the centre.  Rail head to bottom of sleeper is 4mm; the same as bullhead flexi-track.  Medium grey in colour.  Sleepers are 32.3mm long by 3.1mm wide top and 3.3mm bottom.

 

 

The rails have the correct 1:20 incline and measure 18.2mm apart at the top of the railhead.

 

Sleepers

PECO concrete sleepers are a cream colour, like a milky bar, 1.8mm thick at the edges and 1.5mm in the centre. The sleeper length is 31.7mm long by 3.5mm wide. Sleepers are 32.3mm long by 3mm wide top and 3.6mm bottom. 

C&L Sleepers are a lighter grey than the track base, are 33.65 wide and 3.35mm wide with next to no taper from top to bottom.  1.55mm thick at the ends and 1.25mm in the centre.

PECO timber sleepers for turnout construction are 88mm long by 3.93 wide (scale 11.75 inches wide).  Thickness 1.23mm

 

Baseplates 

In all cases, as with bullhead rail, a taper must be put on the end of the rail base to ensure the baseplates slide on easily without damage.  All the baseplates fitted the EMGS rail and were easier to install whilst still on the sprue.

PECO baseplates as provided with PECO concrete sleepers.  Might resemble the early  BR baseplates.  Railhead to bottom of baseplate 2.75mm.  (PECO sleeper, 4.55mm overall.  C&L Sleeper, 4.3mm overall, PECO turnout timbers 3.98mm overall)

PECO pandrol baseplates, appear slightly oversize but acceptable detail.  Railhead to bottom of baseplate 2.65mm.  (PECO sleeper, 4.45mm overall.  C&L Sleeper, 4.2mm overall, PECO turnout timbers 3.88mm overall)

C&L baseplates, smaller than the PECO baseplate and detail smaller than PECO   Railhead to bottom of baseplate 2.65mm.  (PECO sleeper, 4.45mm overall.  C&L Sleeper, 4.2mm overall, PECO turnout timbers 3.88mm overall)

 

Image below, PECO Pandrol top, C&L middle, PECO basic bottom

 

 

if making up plain track using the baseplates, sleepers and rail, there would be no 1:20 incline.  So, the baseplates are only of use in turnouts where the FB rails are vertical.

 

I'll update when more parts arrive and then commence a turnout in the new year as the festive season, with its many distractions, is now upon us...!  I also need to collect more information re baseplates on FB turnouts. 

 

Patrick

 

Edited December 3, 2023 by NFWEM57
typo & additional info

[hayfield]

Patrick

 

C&L is code 82 not code 83

 

Exactoscale Fasttrack bases are designed to fit code 82 as I stated previously, I assume both Peco fittings are also designed to take code 83 as they date back years

[NFWEM57]

13 hours ago, hayfield said:

C&L is code 82 not code 83

C&L error corrected, too may 82s and 83s..!

 

I have discovered that code 82 or 83 indicates nothing about the size of the rail other than its overall height..!  Nothing about rail head width, base width or base thickness.  Is it any wonder we are all confused and meaningful progress on FB turnouts has stalled..! 

 

According to a previous post elsewhere some time ago, (https://www.scalefour.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7339) C&L code 82 had a head width of 0.8mm, not 0.92mm, and so is undersize by 0.12mm and not prototypical; have asked C&L what size their current code 82 rail is.  Peco code 83 has a head width of 0.79mm.  EMGS code 83 has a head width of 0.94mm; oversize by 0.02mm. Amazingly, Karlgarin 82 has a head width of 1.12mm but that rail is for a different solution..! 

 

None of this critical detail is ever listed on most UK websites, just the overall rail height which is about as much use as a chocolate fireguard..! Look at a German website and they provide the key detail, even for PECO code 83.  That is why I purchased the various bits in small quantities to find out the facts and share here.  We need to know the rail head width, the base width and the base thickness (as it might be the correct width but too fat to slide into the baseplates).  We need to know the maximum rail base width height for various baseplates not have to discover - at cost - by trial and error.  

 

Finally, EMGS code 83 is in fact 0.082", as measured..!

 

Rail specific dimensions measured or found to date are as follows with prototype (blue), measured (green), on line search (yellow), unknown (red):

 

        

 

Dimensions have been requested for C&L and Marcway rail.

 

Patrick

Edited December 3, 2023 by NFWEM57
Additional info

[NFWEM57]

Solution to tight fit of EMGS Code 83 rail in ExactoScale Concrete Track Base

 

Curious as to why the rail was a tight fit, I tapered the width of the base of the rail to see what dimension slid easily into the track base.  At around 1.80mm width, the rail slides into the track base with ease; just 0.01mm difference.  On a longer piece of rail, I ran a piece of fine wet and dry along both edges of the base and after a few iterations found the entire rail slid easily through a section of track base.

 

A little bit of extra work but at least you get a length of concrete track with almost scale rail assembled in just a few minutes.  It would be prudent to do the same on any rail being used for turnouts to avoid stressing the baseplates.

 

The cost of 1m of EM gauge flat bottom track on concrete sleepers is approximately £8.20 from the EMGS.   The track base is also available in OO and P4 from the EMGS (and others) as is the rail.

 

Patrick

Edited December 4, 2023 by NFWEM57
Additional Info

[kipford]

Brian

Not sure if this is of help? My Brighton East layout is in EM. It uses a mixture of flat bottom rail for the main running lines and bullhead in sidings. The bullhead  plain track is all C & L flexitrack. Bullhead turnouts are ply sleepers with C & L chairs. If I was doing it now I would use P4 Track Company chairs. On all turnouts I build the common crossing as a unit as mentioned in a previous post. The flat bottom track was built as follows. Plain track is P4 Track Company concrete base units using EMGS flat bottom rail and assembled into 1 m lengths. The turnouts were built on ply sleepers using PECO panderol chairs again using EMGS rail. For track assembly I used standard EMGS 3 point gauges, EMGS check rail gauges and a mint gauge. For wheel back to back I also use the standard EMGS back to back gauges, so nothing special here. The track has been laid over 12 years now and has done some 35 exhibitions without ever being repaired or adjusted, When I built the track I did hardly any adjustment to achieve good running quality, any issues are always problems with the stock not the track. The flat bottom turnouts as previously mentioned are a little more difficult to make, mainly in they need a lot of filing of the foot of the stock rails where the switch blades contact.

Photo 1 shows the scissors crossing under construction which which has all the elements of the flat bottom track I built in it and the gauges used. PS I built the baseboard joint into the formation avoiding has to cut the rails later and it has never given a problem.

 

The finished item.

 

 

I notice you are located in Hampshire. I live in Waterlooville. If you would to come and see what I did and/or have a chat about it message me and we can sort out a mutually convenient time.

 

 

 

[NFWEM57]

On 06/12/2023 at 14:13, kipford said:

Not sure if this is of help?

Hi,

 

Thanks for the comments and images you have posted to this thread, I assume it was for me..!  The layout looks impressive.  My layout will not be built until after a post retirement relocation in around 18 months time so I am busy making up various sections of the layout where there is point work in the meantime.   I have settled on the PECO baseplates with EMGS flat bottom rail and wooden sleepers/timbers for the turnouts and the ExactoScale concrete bases for plain track.   The main lines will be flat bottom, the branch lines will be bullhead.  Tried looking up the P4 Track Company, nothing found but the odd link to ExactoScale.  Yes, there is a lot of base material to remove on flat bottom rail but I intend to mill the rail to near size and hand finish.  I will clearly need to design and make a few jigs.  I have British Railway Track - Design Construction & Maintenance (1979) 5th Edition and Santa is bringing me the latest textbooks on track, flat bottom turnouts and bullhead turnouts from the PWI so i should be able to create some meaningful templates.

 

I live near Waterlooville so I may  be in contact in the via a PM in the new year. 

 

Patrick

Edited December 7, 2023 by NFWEM57

[hayfield]

Patrick

 

I think I am correct in remembering that the P4 track Company was the Name Exactoscale used for their P4 kits, here is a link to a post started by Nickwood

 

This incarnation of Exactoscale was a partnership/business relationship Between the late Andrew Dukes and the late Len Newman (Len also started C&L)

 

The idea was to produce turnouts, diamond crossings and slip kits to P4 standards, and a range of complementary track and track building parts

Basically steel rail was precut and fabricated so that the buyer could easily built P4 track kits by using a selection of various plastic chairs and track bases

 

The pre cut and formed rails have not been available for years

The rest of the range is still available and is still sold by the Scalefour Society and a smaller range is available from the EMGS (the 7mm parts is sold through the Scale Seven group)

 

[NFWEM57]

Update

 

The last few (available) components have arrived I think I have all I need to scratch build a simple flat bottom rail turnout.  The latest volume on Flat Bottom Rail turnouts (by the PWI) has also arrived to shed some much needed light on modern practices, but only on and after 25th December..!!  I will have to find a solution to distance blocks which are fitted after the moving sections of the switch rails between the stock rails and switch rails where there is no space for L1 and S1 style baseplates.  Similar blocks will be required at the crossing V  to maintain distance between the crossing Vs and wing rails; 1mm high x 2mm wide rectangular black plastic rod will suffice cut to length as required to fill the gap.  A period of research before beginning I think.  Nothing i require on my planned layout in flat bottom rail is below C8, and that is a crossover, so It might be a much simpler D12 as a first attempt; lead around 30m so around 400mm (16") toe to nose and a natural turnout with 5m (16ft) radius for both switch and turnout.

Edited December 11, 2023 by NFWEM57
typo

[NFWEM57]

Well,  Santa has delivered the PWI book on Flat Bottom Rail Switches and Crossing and it is very enlightening.  The UK seemingly went through a period of continuous development around the mid 1960s to 1970s before largely settling on what we have now.  Thankfully the switch and crossing designs are vertical which means the only available baseplates are suitable.   Appendix 10 of the volume has all the necessary detail of vertical rail design switches and crossings to allow specific templates to be made including setting out detail, timbering and baseplates required.   The challenge will be removing the material from the rail for switch blades and crossings.  The basic crossings Vs are simpler than the switch blades but the wing and check rails add to the complexity.  For the switch blades I might need to make a jig to curve and hold the rail before it is filed or milled to the required planing radius.  Something similar will be required for the wing and check rails. 

 

EMGS rail will be used as it is the closest in size to the prototype.  No feedback from Marcway or C&L on their rail dimensions.

 

One final design consideration is the transition from the vertical of the turnout to 1:20 inclination of plain track which is undertaken within one sleeper spacing on the prototype, but obviously this affects the gauge.  Might need to put a slight twist in the various rails before turnout assembly and gauge accordingly.  Another issue is is the connection of FB rail on a mainline turnout to bullhead rail on a siding or branch line.  Brass fishplates soldered in place might be a solution.

 

First tasks before the attempt at at turnout is a modified set of 3 point and roller gauges followed by the design of a filing jig for switch blades  and crossing Vs.  Conveniently, check rails come in just 2 standard sizes..!

 

 

[hayfield]

6 hours ago, NFWEM57 said:

EMGS rail will be used as it is the closest in size to the prototype.  No feedback from Marcway or C&L on their rail dimensions.

 

 

I would expect all retailers at this time of year to be working hard on fulfilling orders from customers who have paid for stock first. This is the time of year which keeps most retailers in business and determines if a year has been profitable or not !!!

 

I started off in retail 60 odd years ago and whilst having 30 years away from it I returned towards the end of my working life, if anything the last 10 years of employment in retail the Christmas period has become ever more important to the bottom line, plus the Amazon effect of everybody wanting instant delivery. So last minute orders have soared.

 

Secondly I have been known to assist on C&L stands in the SE  for more than 10 years, its been nice passing the time of day when not busy with those wanting to discuss things, but when it gets busy we have to politely quickly move on to those who wish to spend hard cash,

 

These two companies have limited recourses and rightly have to prioritize their time over busy periods

 

I suggest you phone Phil at a quiet time, mid week and in the middle of the day, I am sure he will have the time to chat through rail sizes with you. Mondays and Fridays are always busy as are the start and end of the working day

 

Good luck with your trials

[Siberian Snooper]

The fishplates used to transition from B/H to F/B are specials they lift the bullhead to give a level railhead across the joint.

 

 

[NFWEM57]

7 hours ago, hayfield said:

quickly move on to those who wish to spend hard cash

Thank you, and I appreciate and understand your comments about the retail business. 

 

My comments were not a criticism of either retailer, just an update to an earlier post in this thread regarding the dimensions of suitable FB rail.  It would seem the only way to get the dimensions of rail is, as I have done, buy some and measure it...!  I ruled out that using that option across the board because of the high cost, potential waste and because before I part with hard cash, I usually like to know exactly what I am buying to avoid disappointment.  I guess I am therefore one of those annoying people who, for good reason, wants to discuss things before getting their wallet out..! 

 

Thus far on this FB voyage of discovery I have had to purchase most components blind and although there has been some waste, fortunately it is not as much as it could have been; eBay might allow me to recover some of that wasted outlay.  Hopefully, what I share here will contribute in some small way to allow others to make a more informed decision on going down the FB path and/or what to purchase.  At the moment there is precious little information out there; that i could find at least.

[NFWEM57]

8 hours ago, Siberian Snooper said:

The fishplates used to transition from B/H to F/B are specials they lift the bullhead to give a level railhead across the joint.

Thank you. I guess I will have to see how the 2 types line up in practice for the model.