Good's Yard Signalling Question

[Compound2632]

13 minutes ago, Cwmtwrch said:

According to the note on the diagram, there is also a ground frame close to the other end of the tunnel, unlocked by Annett's key/staff. Taking it out of the frame locks 6, 7 and 22 normal, so that nothing can leave the yard. Presumably the staff allows a wrong line return?

 

Yes, that was to work the Birmingham Corporation coal siding at Cemetery Road, accessed from the departure (down) line. It had no connection to the arrival line, so coal wagons and empties would have had to be worked in and out of Central, rather than direct from Church Road.

[Compound2632]

14 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

As did similar LNWR goods depots.

 

http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/l/liverpool_great_howard_street/index2.shtml

 

http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/l/liverpool_waterloo_goods/index.shtml

 

Interestingly different, I would say. Waterloo was a through station following the opening of Riverside passenger station in 1895 so was signalled as a regular block post. Great Howard Street was directly alongside the Liverpool - Manchester main line and so access was under the control of a signal box that was also a block post. 

[Nearholmer]

The one thing that’s bugging me is that I think I can see power operated points on the layout. Now, I don’t know what BR or predecessor practice was, but my recollection of London Underground is that power operated points in a yard would be controlled from a shunting cabin, and would be associated with shunting signals (or might they have been point position indicators in some places?).

 

I can’t work out how a shunter ‘on the ground’ could effectively control movements if someone else, somewhere else in a hut, was controlling some of the points. In the days before widespread use of portable radios, it might have been done using plungers and bells, but I’d be interested in other’s thoughts. Are the point machines “in period”? Is the presence of a signalbox “in keeping”?

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 6, 2023 by Nearholmer

[Compound2632]

19 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

The one thing that’s bugging me is that I think I can see power operated points on the layout. Now, I don’t know what BR or predecessor practice was, but my recollection of London Underground is that power operated points in a yard would be controlled from a shunting cabin, and would be associated with shunting signals (or might they have been point position indicators in some places?).

 

I can’t work out how a shunter ‘on the ground’ could effectively control movements if someone else, somewhere else in a hut, was controlling some of the points. In the days before widespread use of portable radios, it might have been done using plungers and bells, but I’d be interested in other’s thoughts. Are the point machines “in period”? Is the presence of a signalbox “in keeping”?

 

Looking at the Birmingham Central signalling diagram, a few key points, giving access to each group of sidings, are operated from the signal box, but within each group of sidings, points are controlled by hand on the ground.

 

I doubt a location such as this would have had the investment in point machines, even for these box-worked points.

[Nearholmer]

And, are there signals associated with the ‘box operated ones? I would expect so. Yep, just checked, and there seem to be. The two go together.

 

 

Edited November 6, 2023 by Nearholmer

[Compound2632]

1 minute ago, Nearholmer said:

And, are there signals associated with the ‘box operated ones? I would expect so.

 

Yes. Semaphores. (See plan I posted near the bottom of the previous page.)

[Jeremy Cumberland]

3 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

The one thing that’s bugging me is that I think I can see power operated points on the layout. Now, I don’t know what BR or predecessor practice was, but my recollection of London Underground is that power operated points in a yard would be controlled from a shunting cabin, and would be associated with shunting signals (or might they have been point position indicators in some places?).

I can't remember. I know the shunting foreman at Neasden prepared the departure diagram, assigning reporting numbers to the sets on each road, and train crews called in to the shunting cabin to be told where to find their set, but I don't recall there being any control of points or signals from the shunting cabin itself. I suppose the list was communicated to the signal box, wherever that was. Of course, other depots may have worked differently.

 

Of course, the whole area was track circuited. Most of the sidings at Neasden were double length, and had four position light signals; one at each end and a pair facing each other in the middle (there was a walkway in between).

 

Track circuits, motorised points and position light signals were common at carriage sidings on British Rail, but I don't think they were found in goods yards.

[Nearholmer]

11 minutes ago, Jeremy Cumberland said:

Of course, other depots may have worked differently.

And, it’s changed over time.

 

There was definitely one depot that I went to for some reason that had points and signals within the depot controlled from a panel in the shunting cabin, I’ve got a clear picture of it my head, but can I remember which depot ……. Nope!

[TheSignalEngineer]

8 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Yes, that was to work the Birmingham Corporation coal siding at Cemetery Road, accessed from the departure (down) line. It had no connection to the arrival line, so coal wagons and empties would have had to be worked in and out of Central, rather than direct from Church Road.

Warning, I'm in serious thread drift mode

 

The Cemetery Ground Frame was alongside an old Jewish burial ground. I don't know of a Cemetery Road there but the original access would have been from an old alleyway running from Islington Row opposite Five Ways station to Bath Row known as Betholom Row which is said to be a corruption of the Hebrew "Bet Olam" which means City of the Dead. The site has been walled up for many years and is now a mini forest at the back of Broderick House student flats but I can remember when you could still see the gravestones from the top of a No.8 bus going down towards Lee Bank. 

The Central Goods branch split either side of the cemetery. The Corporation Siding was actually the original West Suburban line alongside the canal to Granville Street terminus which is where the Corporation Depot was situated.

More about Central Goods here, including some pictures at the Five Ways end. https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/lms/centralgoods.htm

[Compound2632]

30 minutes ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

Warning, I'm in serious thread drift mode

 

The Cemetery Ground Frame was alongside an old Jewish burial ground. I don't know of a Cemetery Road there but the original access would have been from an old alleyway running from Islington Row opposite Five Ways station to Bath Row known as Betholom Row which is said to be a corruption of the Hebrew "Bet Olam" which means City of the Dead. The site has been walled up for many years and is now a mini forest at the back of Broderick House student flats but I can remember when you could still see the gravestones from the top of a No.8 bus going down towards Lee Bank. 

The Central Goods branch split either side of the cemetery. The Corporation Siding was actually the original West Suburban line alongside the canal to Granville Street terminus which is where the Corporation Depot was situated.

 

 

That's fascinating. I've realised that "Cemetery Road" was a slip of mine, conflating Cemetery Siding and Church Road. The 1885-7 OS 25" map shows Betholom Row and the Burial Ground:

https://maps.nls.uk/view/115633227.

Edited November 6, 2023 by Compound2632
sp.

[TheSignalEngineer]

Returning to the topic, I would agree that the signal box looks out of place in a location like this. Signalling would be minimal if at all and it would be all mechanical. You could get away with back to back notice boards at the tunnel/bridge and if you want a signal, one there for each direction would be sufficient.

 

In my own area Monument Lane had two signals in the yard. Aston Goods had about four, Soho Pool didn't have any. Curzon Street had a handful within the yard but that was big with 25 sidings. Lawley Street had a few signals around the reception area but that was even bigger than Curzon Street. I think Camp Hill had one signal coming in on the main line and one signal for departures. On the WR, Hockly was the biggest depot, it's hard to find any picturs of signals inside the yard but I know there was one reading out.

[Ray H]

12 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

There was definitely one depot that I went to for some reason that had points and signals within the depot controlled from a panel in the shunting cabin, I’ve got a clear picture of it my head, but can I remember which depot ……. Nope!

 

Upminster Depot?

[Nearholmer]

Maybe, but I’m afraid that a ‘name that depot’ contest is never going to work, because I had cause to visit all of them at different times over a c30 year span, always something to do with one form of power supply work or another, and how the depot was operated was ‘incidental detail’, unless it impacted on sectioning, or we needed to disrupt it to dig trenches/use a big crane etc.

[TomCrewe]

Again thank you all for information, A simple (maybe not so simple) question about where to put a signal explodes into much more. The Signal box has been demolished and the point motors are starting to disappear.

Looking into point levers.

With more information comes more questions

MH 'a small ground level hut would perhaps be more appropriate.  I would expect it to be sited among a few "grotty hut" structures, for use by shunters, lamp filling, PW stores etc' I like this any examples and notes on positions?

TJ 'There will (very) probably be a STOP board at the exit to the tunnel; all inbound traffic stops here to await a hand signal or verbal instruction to proceed.  This position may have a telephone.' Again I like this any examples and notes on position?

C2632 'If you do away with the engine shed, those kick-back sidings could make a good coal yard,' I also like this idea but will have to wait until I finish revamp of backscene).

 

 

[Nearholmer]

Wow! I’m not sure I’d have the guts to rip-up beautiful workmanship in pursuit of fidelity as you are doing. I raise my hat to you, Sir!

Edited November 7, 2023 by Nearholmer

[Jeremy Cumberland]

We don't get much of a view of the loco shed in your photographs, but I'd be inclined to keep it as is. It would be horrible to shunt as a coal yard (or "interesting", perhaps, depending on your point of view), and I am sure it is easy enough to come up with a reason for there being a small shed there.

 

I like the way that the timbers below the point motors look ideal for mounting hand levers.

[Ray H]

Could the loco shed stay as the base for numerous locos which would arrive and depart light engine whilst serving other local areas?

[Nearholmer]

I quite like the loco shed, because it looks very like the sorts of sheds that lurked deep within ‘industrial’ complexes, places like the PLA railways, collieries etc, but whether it’s kosher for a mainline goods yard I’m less sure. Didn’t the LMS have a shed down in the docks near Poplar? Devon’s Road, the first fully diesel depot on BR? That was the sort of place Ray mentions, home to lots of shunting engines, as well as bigger locos for transfer goods services.

 

 

 

 

Edited November 7, 2023 by Nearholmer

[Cwmtwrch]

40 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

whether it’s kosher for a mainline goods yard I’m less sure.

Pretty sure not - even when alongside a yard of any sort the shed would normally have its own access, possibly alongside the yard access, or even using a common access, but not through the yard. This is not necessarily the case for an industrial private line, but they worked by different rules to a main line railway.

43 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

Didn’t the LMS have a shed down in the docks near Poplar? Devon’s Road, the first fully diesel depot on BR?

The ex-NLR shed at Devons Road, Bow was about a mile north of the docks, immediately south of Devons Road. The PLA had several sheds in various docks areas, but my comment above about different rules applies.

[Nearholmer]

19 minutes ago, Cwmtwrch said:

, but not through the yard

That does indeed seem peculiar, because it’s so incredibly inconvenient from an operational standpoint, but I don’t believe it breaks any rules. If it does, I’d be interested to hear which.

 

 

Edited November 7, 2023 by Nearholmer

[Cwmtwrch]

Perhaps 'rules' is the wrong word; I was not intending to refer to formal books of rules, but to a different approach to operation:

 

With a main line railway, goods yards, sorting and storage yards were generally used by departments responsible to a senior Traffic manager, whereas sheds were the responsibility of the CME, and each would have specific functions, with separate requirements and responsibilities within the organisation, which probably only met at General Manager level. The CME would want free access to the shed at whatever times he wanted locos to arrive and depart, which would change over time possibly, and would commonly involve operations at multiple locations elsewhere. The Traffic manager would want to be able to shunt the yard whenever the current timetable made it necessary, which could also vary over time. As you say, the potential for conflict here is obvious and would normally not be acceptable, I think. An access to the shed directly from the tunnel probably would be, as there should then be no conflict, although the question of why a shed is needed there at all still remains.

 

With private sidings [and private railways, such as the Lambton, Hetton and Joicey] there could be a wide variety of internal lines of responsibility, largely dependent on the size of the railway operation in relation to the overall size of the owning company, but in all cases the railway would be a relatively subordinate part of a much larger organisation with wider objectives. This could mean that what was convenient or acceptable in operational terms would be decided on criteria potentially very different to those applied by a main line company, and probably at a lower level within the organisation. Although shed access would still be as straight forward as possible, the shed could be much more closely associated with other facilities.

 

 

[Nearholmer]

5 minutes ago, Cwmtwrch said:

whereas sheds were the responsibility of the CME

They actually ping-ponged to and fro between CME and ‘traffic’ through railway history, and if you took a snapshot at a given date you would find some railways where the accountability rested in one place, and some where it rested in the other. There was never a perfect answer as to who ought to ‘own’ them!

[C126]

In view of the size of the yard, and its provision for vans, etc., my first thought was the relevant coal yard would be so large as to be on a different site.  Why not change the loco shed area to private sidings, a warehouse, or something else with varied traffic?  The number of coal sidings to 'mirror' such a magnificent goods yard would be in double figures, for many different merchants, I would have thought.

 

But it is your layout: if you want a loco shed, for whatever reason, you keep it.  🙂  It all looks d--n fun to operate!

 

[Compound2632]

36 minutes ago, C126 said:

In view of the size of the yard, and its provision for vans, etc., my first thought was the relevant coal yard would be so large as to be on a different site.  Why not change the loco shed area to private sidings, a warehouse, or something else with varied traffic?  The number of coal sidings to 'mirror' such a magnificent goods yard would be in double figures, for many different merchants, I would have thought.

 

Yes. I did mention timber and an overhead crane...

[The Johnster]

21 hours ago, TomCrewe said:

TJ 'There will (very) probably be a STOP board at the exit to the tunnel; all inbound traffic stops here to await a hand signal or verbal instruction to proceed.  This position may have a telephone.' Again I like this any examples and notes on position?

 

The STOP board is effectively a fixed signal, and would be positioned for reading by engine drivers.  On the WR they were a vertically written stencil cut out in a black box on a post, baclit by an oil lamp (electric in the very few places that had been dragged kicking and screaming into the 20th century, at least in 'my time' back in the 70s.  It was usually in the cess to the left of the track (from an incoming driver's perspective) but might be on the right for sighting or location purposes.  You came to a stand at that point and waited for instructions, usually in the form of a handsignal from the yard staff (under the authority of the yard supervisor).  The signal box (or panel for MAS) has phoned the yard office/shunter's cabin to inform them that you are on your way.

 

In some cases there was a telephone provided for you to obtain instructions from; this seemed more common in loco yards where the foreman's office was often out of sight of the reception road.  On your layout, the STOP board will be at the exit from the scenic break tunnel, clear of any movement taking place in the yard itself.  When they are ready to deal with you, they'll call you forward and instruct you.  The corollary for outgoing traffic is that the made-up train or light engine disappears down the scenic break rabbit hole while the yard supervisor informs the box/panel that it's on it's way; it's progress as far as the outlet signal accessing the running lines is under the yard supervisor's instruction and authority.

 

4 hours ago, Cwmtwrch said:

With a main line railway, goods yards, sorting and storage yards were generally used by departments responsible to a senior Traffic manager, whereas sheds were the responsibility of the CME,

 

Which, on the ground, usually translated to supvisor/foreman level.  The loco facility would need it's own reception and departure facilities separate from the goods yard as this eliminates the possibility of conflicting movements authorised by the other foreman.  All movements in goods and marshalling yards are conducted by handsignals from staff on the ground, but in a loco yard, they are authorised by the foreman but carried out by the driver, who has a good look around and sounds his whistle/horn before moving off.  Bigger loco sheds have established one-way systems to minimise conflicting moves.

 

21 hours ago, TomCrewe said:

'a small ground level hut would perhaps be more appropriate.  I would expect it to be sited among a few "grotty hut" structures, for use by shunters, lamp filling, PW stores etc' I like this any examples and notes on positions?

 

We called them cabins, in Scotland they are Bothies.  One step up from 'grotty hut' a la Will's, brick with slate or tiled roofs, proper fireplaces, standpipe for water.  You need one for the shunters, another for the C & W, sometimes seperate structures sometimes contiguous.  Very often a rough bench outside for sunny days.  Then simpler structures, a lamp hut and a stores for the C & W.  They will be situated conveniently for the points, and you're a bit tight for space along that back wall, so somewhere in the vicinity of the yard light in the first photo would probably work.  Timber crossings where staff cross the track frequently.

 

21 hours ago, TomCrewe said:

C2632 'If you do away with the engine shed, those kick-back sidings could make a good coal yard,' I also like this idea but will have to wait until I finish revamp of backscene).

 

I also don't like the loco shed at the back of a goods yard, it's probably not impossible but I think it's unlikely.  Coal yard?  Maybe, but how about a single coal road with just one or two merchants serving 'this' part of town while the main coal yard is a mile or so away, and a factory/timber merchants/fuel depot (where tanks come in and are decanted into drums for outward shipment in vans or sheeted opens), a galvanising/electroplating factory (tinplate sheets in in shocvans and sheeted shock opens, finished product out in 'normal' vans or opens.  This might need a coal wagon occasionally, as all of these facilities need heat!  It generates more variety of traffic and the specialist wagons make your shunting even more interesting.

 

I like this layout a lot, a convincing and credible situation with a lot of operational interest, and exceptionally well 'presented'.  Well done!