Need help identifying wagon types

[jonhinds]

Hi

 

Hopefully a quick one. I’m not familiar with Grouping/early BR wagon types so would be grateful for help in identifying the ones pictured in these 70s-80s images:

 

 

 

Many thanks!

[Southernman46]

https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/paulbartlettsrailwaywagons

 

Good hunting ............

 

The 12t van is definitely GW or BR build of GW design.

[Fat Controller]

32 minutes ago, Southernman46 said:

https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/paulbartlettsrailwaywagons

 

Good hunting ............

 

The 12t van is definitely GW or BR build of GW design.

I wonder if it's a ply-bodied GW-designed Shoc-Van? It seems have vertical white stripes on the side.

[jonhinds]

58 minutes ago, Southernman46 said:

https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/paulbartlettsrailwaywagons

 

Good hunting ............

 

The 12t van is definitely GW or BR build of GW design.

Many thanks! That’s my afternoon sorted 😄

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

14 minutes ago, jonhinds said:

That’s my afternoon sorted

If you are anything like typical, there will be plenty more of those. So many wagons, so little time...

[BernardTPM]

5 hours ago, Fat Controller said:

I wonder if it's a ply-bodied GW-designed Shoc-Van? It seems have vertical white stripes on the side.

If it were a shock van it would also have markings on the ends. I suspect they are simply the post 1963 'boxed' markings. It does look to be plywood rather than planked.

[BernardTPM]

In the first picture the wagon attached to the shunter was originally a Conflat A, but probably just a runner wagon by then. The air-braked plate wagons date that photo to the 1980s.

In the second picture the wagons in the shed looks to be lows of some sort. The angle it is taken means it's not clear enough to determine if it has drop sides. Two plank wagons are quite rare, but I did find one here in use as a match truck, but that may not be the right type.

In the next siding that looks like 16 ton minerals either side of a (longer) 21t mineral with a further 16t mineral in the distance.

Behind the two ex-GWR vans probably a couple of 21t hoppers then an open wagon (yet another 16t mineral?) and a bogie bolster.

I would guess the second picture was taken at a rather earlier date, possibly even late '60s as pre-Nationalisation vans went out of normal service in the early '70s.

[Aire Head]

The wagon visible in the mouth of the shed is an LMS D1927 Medium Goods.

[Wickham Green too]

3 hours ago, Aire Head said:

The wagon visible in the mouth of the shed is an LMS D1927 Medium Goods.

... carefully positioned to catch the slates as they slide off the roof !

 

I certainly thought it was a D1927 at first sight - but it seems to have lamp irons in the corner where a D1927 should have full height knees !!?!

[melmerby]

Like the brake van that has run out of track😀

[Wickham Green too]

2 minutes ago, melmerby said:

Like the brake van that has run out of track😀

Isn't that supposed to be on the Redundant brake van bodies thread !!?! 

[bécasse]

12 hours ago, BernardTPM said:

In the first picture the wagon attached to the shunter was originally a Conflat A, but probably just a runner wagon by then. The air-braked plate wagons date that photo to the 1980s.

It was discovered (the hard way) that the wheelbase of an 03 diesel shunter wasn't long enough to cope with track-circuit geometry in certain parts of the country. That led to them being semi-permanently coupled to fitted "runners" when working in the areas concerned, Conflat As being typical of the runners employed. The vacuum hoses were coupled up to give a marginal improvement to braking capability too.

[Stoke West]

4 minutes ago, bécasse said:

It was discovered (the hard way) that the wheelbase of an 03 diesel shunter wasn't long enough to cope with track-circuit geometry in certain parts of the country. That led to them being semi-permanently coupled to fitted "runners" when working in the areas concerned, Conflat As being typical of the runners employed. The vacuum hoses were coupled up to give a marginal improvement to braking capability too.

I often wondered why the runners were not ballasted 

[keefer]

They didn't need to be ballasted as they were only there to activate the track circuits and they didn't actually need to be braked at all.

The main reason the vacuum pipes were connected up was so that the vacuum brake was available when shunting whichever way round the loco/runner combo was facing (particularly with rakes of coaches when on station pilot duties, or more than a couple of wagons).

Otherwise, time would be wasted releasing then resetting the coach/wagon brakes.

Some of the runners also ended up through-piped for air brakes - brake and main reservoir cocks on the bufferbeams, connected over the floor of the wagon by nothing more complicated than a couple of metal pipes.

Edited November 2, 2023 by keefer

[Fat Controller]

3 hours ago, bécasse said:

It was discovered (the hard way) that the wheelbase of an 03 diesel shunter wasn't long enough to cope with track-circuit geometry in certain parts of the country. That led to them being semi-permanently coupled to fitted "runners" when working in the areas concerned, Conflat As being typical of the runners employed. The vacuum hoses were coupled up to give a marginal improvement to braking capability too.

Tyneside had several  Conflat ,Ls, as well as Conflat As for uses as runners/match wagons. These could be identified  by the presence of diamond-shaped holes in the floor.

[Wickham Green too]

45 minutes ago, keefer said:

... particularly with rakes of coaches when on station pilot duties, ...

Norwich Crown Point Depot was a frequent haunt - plenty of coaches to play with there.

[Stoke West]

4 hours ago, keefer said:

They didn't need to be ballasted as they were only there to activate the track circuits and they didn't actually need to be braked at all.

The main reason the vacuum pipes were connected up was so that the vacuum brake was available when shunting whichever way round the loco/runner combo was facing (particularly with rakes of coaches when on station pilot duties, or more than a couple of wagons).

Otherwise, time would be wasted releasing then resetting the coach/wagon brakes.

Some of the runners also ended up through-piped for air brakes - brake and main reservoir cocks on the bufferbeams, connected over the floor of the wagon by nothing more complicated than a couple of metal pipes.

Not for brake force , but to be more stable when propelling 

[The Johnster]

I know it is a well-established and honourable RMWeb tradition to wander down as many OT rabbit-holes as can be managed in a thread, but to bring us back for a brief interval to the OP's original question and his lack of awareness of BR 'steam age' wagon types, a complex subject if one is coming at it cold and at the bottom of a learning curve, I would mention that one of the N gauge societies, possibly The N Gauge Society, has very good basic colour picture information on wagon types, liveries, and nomclemature.

 

As a very basic outline, open wagons came in 'FLAT', usually 'CONFLAT' (for containers, provided with chain pockets to secure them), 'LOW', one-planker or steel bodied, with drop sides and ends, 'MED', 3-planer or steel equivalent with drop sides, and 'HIGH', five-plankers or steel equivalents with side doors.  'VAN' is self-explanatory.  If the vehicle was fitted with vacuum brakes, which I think all in revenue traffic were by the OP's period, 'FIT' was added to the name, so 'HYBARFIT' is a fitted 5-planker with a tarpaulin bar.  'VANFIT' was a fitted van.  These descriptions were developed from telegraphic codes used to identify wagons, though by that time all that was done using TOPS (Total Operations Processing System),

 

You can sort of work it out for yourself once you've picked up the basics.  'COVHOP' is pretty straightforward, but is not the same as a 'GRAIN', 'PRESFLO' & 'PRESTWIN'  are specialised cement wagons, you should be able to decipher 'MINFIT' or 'COKEHOP 21'.  Some are less obvious, especially the aquatic series of departmentals, 'DOGFISH', 'GRAMPUS', 'SALMON' &c, but you soon pick them up!

[jonhinds]

Thanks @The Johnster for that very helpful explanation. 

[keefer]

23 hours ago, Wickham Green too said:

Norwich Crown Point Depot was a frequent haunt - plenty of coaches to play with there.

This is the one I remember at Scarborough. I was on holiday at the same time as the photo and 03073 and 08339 were the station pilots.

Normal timetabled and Summer Saturday loco-hauled trains, coaches hauled out to release the train loco then propelled back in to form the next departure.

Very busy at times but a very slick operation.

© Ado Griff on Flickr

Edited November 3, 2023 by keefer

[markw]

2 hours ago, keefer said:

This is the one I remember at Scarborough. I was on holiday at the same time as the photo and 03073 and 08339 were the station pilots.

Normal timetabled and Summer Saturday loco-hauled trains, coaches hauled out to release the train loco then propelled back in to form the next departure.

Very busy at times but a very slick operation.

© Ado Griff on Flickr

That one is an underframe for a demountable tank.

[melmerby]

On 02/11/2023 at 18:23, The Johnster said:

I know it is a well-established and honourable RMWeb tradition to wander down as many OT rabbit-holes as can be managed in a thread, but to bring us back for a brief interval to the OP's original question and his lack of awareness of BR 'steam age' wagon types, a complex subject if one is coming at it cold and at the bottom of a learning curve, I would mention that one of the N gauge societies, possibly The N Gauge Society, has very good basic colour picture information on wagon types, liveries, and nomclemature.

 

As a very basic outline, open wagons came in 'FLAT', usually 'CONFLAT' (for containers, provided with chain pockets to secure them), 'LOW', one-planker or steel bodied, with drop sides and ends, 'MED', 3-planer or steel equivalent with drop sides, and 'HIGH', five-plankers or steel equivalents with side doors.  'VAN' is self-explanatory.  If the vehicle was fitted with vacuum brakes, which I think all in revenue traffic were by the OP's period, 'FIT' was added to the name, so 'HYBARFIT' is a fitted 5-planker with a tarpaulin bar.  'VANFIT' was a fitted van.  These descriptions were developed from telegraphic codes used to identify wagons, though by that time all that was done using TOPS (Total Operations Processing System),

 

You can sort of work it out for yourself once you've picked up the basics.  'COVHOP' is pretty straightforward, but is not the same as a 'GRAIN', 'PRESFLO' & 'PRESTWIN'  are specialised cement wagons, you should be able to decipher 'MINFIT' or 'COKEHOP 21'.  Some are less obvious, especially the aquatic series of departmentals, 'DOGFISH', 'GRAMPUS', 'SALMON' &c, but you soon pick them up!

MEX, BEETLE, GADFLY, GANE, HYDRA. Some of the many more esoteric names, once used, which had no direct meaning.

 

[The Johnster]

3 hours ago, melmerby said:

MEX, BEETLE, GADFLY, GANE, HYDRA. Some of the many more esoteric names, once used, which had no direct meaning.

 

MONSTER, PARROT, BOBOL, DAMO, PLATE, brilliant stuff, quite a lot of it I learned from model railway catalogues…

[melmerby]

9 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

MONSTER, PARROT, BOBOL, DAMO, PLATE, brilliant stuff, quite a lot of it I learned from model railway catalogues…

There's 3 ½ pages of GWR codes in GWR goods wagons (Atkins, Beard, Tourret) including all the A,B,C.... versions

[The Johnster]

For the OP's purposese, the most commonly occurring ones will serve to be going on with until he/she picks up the general principles.  Vans, opens, flats, minerals and hoppers, the bread and butter traditional railway goods traffic carriers, and the 'modifiers', 'FIT' suffixes, 'PRES' or 'SHOC' prefixes and so on. 

 

NPCCS nomclemature as well; 'CCT', 'PMV', 'GUV', &c.

 

These were all descriptions of types of vehicles rather than actual vehicles, so a VANFIT is a fitted van with a 12ton load capacity, with no indication of it's origin or actual design, or the type of doors (cupboard or sliding). It might be any one of a number of designs from the Big Four, or the BR standard version.  Getting into all that is one of those wonderful rabbitholes that ends up with you buying lots of books and losing half your life reading them...