Perfect running without stay-alives. Is it really possible?

[n9]

I read this post with a lot of interest last night, in which @WIMorrison mentioned a couple of times that stay-alives aren't needed for locos to run reliably without stalling, because good trackwork obviates the need.

 

Somewhat surprisingly, my efforts so far on my first "proper" layout (in Code 55) seemed to agree with him, with every loco running smoothly (electrically) on every piece of flex track and Electrofrog point at extremely slow crawls, including my 0-6-0 03.

 

Until this:

 

 

Unifrog.

 

Donning my cynical hat, it looks like someone at Peco took a micrometer out, measured the exact wheelbase of the 03 and said "Ha! This'll keep 03 owners on their toes!"

 

EDIT: To be clear, the frogs are powered and switched, and what I mean is the front and rear wheels line up exactly with the insulators surrounding the frog.

 

In fairness, the same thing happens on long crossings and double slips, which also come from the factory with almost the exact same distances in the isolated portions of their their frogs.

 

But on every other Peco Electrofrog point, including short, curved, and wye, the problem isn't there.

 

Now, the 03 has pickups on all 6 wheels, so it should in theory be able to handle that "Unifrog" gapping situation. But it doesn't. At least not around 60% of the time after correcting back-to-backs. It's incredibly frustrating because I can see that 40% of the time, on any given Unifrog, it absolutely can. I'm guessing the discrepancy is on account of legacy clearances on the points that are too wide, and perhaps tolerances in wheel wobble still not being absolutely perfect. Or maybe the track isn't perfectly perfectly flat. (How do you measure that? Are there tiny spirit levels around?)

 

So my question is, how do I get perfect running here without stay-alives? Is it the track? The loco? Me? Or is it just not possible with my chosen components?

 

What's the recipe?

 

I'd gladly swap out my Unifrogs for their Electrofrog equivalents if that solved it, but they no longer appear to be manufactured. And that would still leave me with the similarly gapped long crossings and double slips.

 

 

Thanks!

 

[In the pic, the keen-eyed may spot IRJs between the Unifrogs - for better or worse, and quite "make mistakes and learn as I go", I decided those lines will be on different power districts. Block detection is the reason for the other visible IRJ.]

Edited October 14, 2023 by n9

[BoD]

On a unifrog point the frog can be wired and switched to change its polarity.  This would solve your problem with the short wheelbase loco.  Had you thought about this and rejected it for some reason?  Also, it is harder to do this in retrospect once the track is laid, but not impossible.

[Wheatley]

The real ones had similar problems with track circuits. You could add some pickups to a conflat and couple them together permanently ? 

 

https://www.nbrasslocos.co.uk/xn28850.html

 

More helpfully, check for level by laying a straightedge along the rail and see if it rocks anywhere. I use a 6" steel ruler or the edge of a small engineers square (power off obvs). 

Edited October 14, 2023 by Wheatley

[John Isherwood]

2 minutes ago, BoD said:

On a unifrog point the frog can be wired and switched to change its polarity.  This would solve your problem with the short wheelbase loco.  Had you thought about this and rejected it for some reason?  Also, it is harder to do this in retrospect once the track is laid, but not impossible.

 

Exactly!!

 

I model at 4mm. scale, but I have found that the effort of switching the frog is well worth it.

 

Four wheeled locos, such as the LYR Pug, run through all points without the slightest stutter.

 

Go for it!!

 

CJI.

[Wheatley]

It looks like the issue with the Unifrog is that even when it's live only one wheel is contacting it, the other two are sitting bang on the insulation. So if the one wheel picking up on that side is a bit high ...

[n9]

7 hours ago, BoD said:

On a unifrog point the frog can be wired and switched to change its polarity.  This would solve your problem with the short wheelbase loco.  Had you thought about this and rejected it for some reason?  Also, it is harder to do this in retrospect once the track is laid, but not impossible.

 

7 hours ago, cctransuk said:

 

Exactly!!

 

I model at 4mm. scale, but I have found that the effort of switching the frog is well worth it.

 

Four wheeled locos, such as the LYR Pug, run through all points without the slightest stutter.

 

Go for it!!

 

CJI.

 

7 hours ago, Wheatley said:

It looks like the issue with the Unifrog is that even when it's live only one wheel is contacting it, the other two are sitting bang on the insulation. So if the one wheel picking up on that side is a bit high ...

 

Gah! Forgot to follow this post... Wondered why no one had replied - sorry!

 

But exactly what @Wheatley says. The frogs are powered and switched, but it's the fact that 4 of the 6 (actually 2, but it stops the current on 4) wheels come to rest exactly on the insulators for the frogs. Not good for performance.

Edited October 14, 2023 by n9

[BoD]

14 minutes ago, n9 said:

The frogs are powered and switched

I misunderstood, sorry.  I though your photograph and comments about Peco’s micrometer were showing that there was a dead section of exactly the same length as the wheelbase.

[n9]

18 minutes ago, BoD said:

I misunderstood, sorry.  I though your photograph and comments about Peco’s micrometer were showing that there was a dead section of exactly the same length as the wheelbase.

 

No worries! You're actually quite right - reading my post again it could certainly have been interpreted how you read it. I've edited it to make it clearer.

8 hours ago, Wheatley said:

The real ones had similar problems with track circuits. You could add some pickups to a conflat and couple them together permanently ? 

 

https://www.nbrasslocos.co.uk/xn28850.html

 

More helpfully, check for level by laying a straightedge along the rail and see if it rocks anywhere. I use a 6" steel ruler or the edge of a small engineers square (power off obvs). 

 

This is a good idea, and an option. But it leaves me wondering if it could be solved just with "good trackwork", as was suggested in the post I referenced. And thanks for the tip on the straight edge. I have tried that, and maybe it's me, but with the small scale of N I still find hard to see if something is truly level or not.

[Wheatley]

49 minutes ago, n9 said:

, but with the small scale of N I still find hard to see if something is truly level or not.

It's an issue in 4mm to be honest. Try wrapping a bit of masking tape or paper label along the edge of the ruler/square and  colouring in the tops of the rail with felt tip (not permanent). 

[John Isherwood]

12 hours ago, n9 said:

 

 

 

Gah! Forgot to follow this post... Wondered why no one had replied - sorry!

 

But exactly what @Wheatley says. The frogs are powered and switched, but it's the fact that 4 of the 6 (actually 2, but it stops the current on 4) wheels come to rest exactly on the insulators for the frogs. Not good for performance.

 

Not a lot the manufacturers can do about this!

 

The loco has a fixed (scale?) wheelbase, and the frog has a fixed length; it's pure coincidence that the two are the same.

 

CJI.

[n9]

16 minutes ago, cctransuk said:

 

Not a lot the manufacturers can do about this!

 

The loco has a fixed (scale?) wheelbase, and the frog has a fixed length; it's pure coincidence that the two are the same.

 

CJI.

Hmm. I'm going to have to differ with this opinion. Electrofrog points have been manufactured for years. While they may have other issues, they certainly don't have this particular problem, and my 03 handles them with ease. And, assuming you'd want to isolate the frog on an Electrofrog point in a similar manner to Unifrog, you are free, within reason, to choose where exactly you make those insulating cuts to the rails, and I think that for a particular set of locos, you could find a happy medium where too many wheels don't lose current. This is why I mentioned earlier that I'd happily swap out my Unifrogs if their Electrofrog equivalents were still being manufactured.

[AndrueC]

I've never had any power problems on my N scale layouts other than temporary ones caused by turnouts not making good switch blade contact or dirty track resulting from scenery work. My first layout used insulfrog (Peco Settrack) and my current layout is electrofrog with droppers. But I only actually 'juice up' frogs if/when they exhibit the need for it and most are still unconnected.

 

My track is not laid with any particular precision and turnouts are mounted on cardboard in order to bring them approximately up to the height of the track which is mounted on foam underlay. I have however ensured on my current layout that every section of track has a dropper and is connected to the power bus and that includes the fixed rails of turnouts. I've also not cut any wires or rails on the turnouts. I use insulators on the frog rails, attach a dropper and remove the centre spring but otherwise the turnouts are left the way Peco made them.

 

The only loco that exhibits issues is a new Farish 08 and that just seems to be the nature of the beast. That thing is pernickety when running on straight track.

Edited October 16, 2023 by AndrueC

[n9]

43 minutes ago, AndrueC said:

I've never had any power problems on my N scale layouts other than temporary ones caused by turnouts not making good switch blade contact or dirty track resulting from scenery work. My first layout used insulfrog (Peco Settrack) and my current layout is electrofrog with droppers. But I only actually 'juice up' frogs if/when they exhibit the need for it and most are still unconnected.

 

My track is not laid with any particular precision and turnouts are mounted on cardboard in order to bring them approximately up to the height of the track which is mounted on foam underlay. I have however ensured on my current layout that every section of track has a dropper and is connected to the power bus and that includes the fixed rails of turnouts. I've also not cut any wires or rails on the turnouts. I use insulators on the frog rails, attach a dropper and remove the centre spring but otherwise the turnouts are left the way Peco made them.

 

The only loco that exhibits issues is a new Farish 08 and that just seems to be the nature of the beast. That think is pernickety when running on straight track.

Thanks Andrue! That's very useful in the sense that I was beginning to imagine that "good trackwork" that doesn't require any stay-alives was the result of rocket science or some arcane formula, but from what you say, just reasonably laid trackwork should be largely good enough. Maybe there are always edge cases, like with your 08, and my 03 on the Unifrogs.

 

Btw, I have adequately powered droppers on every piece of track too, no springs in points, but I have powered all of the frogs and insulated the Electrofrogs where needed. Also, the Peco Electrofrog N points are not like their HO/OO equivalents, which I assume are the ones you are taliking about, in that they don't come with wires to cut underneath and asociated gaps (at least mine don't) so you have to put those in yourself if you want to go that route.

 

It's a shame @WIMorrison hasn't contributed so far. I'd love to know if he has edge cases too, of if he's solved these sorts of issues in some other way.

[298]

"Good trackwork" is one thing, but if your prototype looks like it needs a mower instead of a ballast regulator then stay alives are a necessity. I haven't had much luck with the small square tantalum ones but have seen some decoders such as Zen Black advertised with a brown-out feature that is effective over small interruptions. I've never really found flywheels to be of much use at slow speeds but maybe there's a reason why some motors sourced from China come with them balanced, something I've not thought to do.

[John Isherwood]

3 minutes ago, 298 said:

"Good trackwork" is one thing, but if your prototype looks like it needs a mower instead of a ballast regulator then stay alives are a necessity. I haven't had much luck with the small square tantalum ones but have seen some decoders such as Zen Black advertised with a brown-out feature that is effective over small interruptions. I've never really found flywheels to be of much use at slow speeds but maybe there's a reason why some motors sourced from China come with them balanced, something I've not thought to do.

 

I don't quite follow that.

 

Good trackwork can be made to look abandoned / neglected cosmetically, without compromising the good running that well-constructed track allows.

 

Stay-alives are recent inventions - good running was and is achievable without them - despite recent protestations to the contrary!

 

CJI.

[WIMorrison]

I have been at 3 exhibitions in as many weeks, exhibiting at two of them, and the thing I noticed on several of the layouts was the superb running that was being demonstrated, especially noticeable on the shunting planks when trains were stopping wherever needed, not avoiding turnouts, frogs or blades - and something that was also evident was that all of these layouts were DC, which immediately rules out the ability to use, or rely upon stay-alives, in fact the only layout where I saw issues in running was actually a DCC layout which actually had stay-alives fitted to the locos (according to the owner)

 

So is good, reliable running possible without stay-alives? Absolutely, many layouts have been demonstrating this for many years and they are still showing that good running is down to good, and appropriate trackwork.

[AndrueC]

On 15/10/2023 at 11:22, n9 said:

Also, the Peco Electrofrog N points are not like their HO/OO equivalents, which I assume are the ones you are taliking about, in that they don't come with wires to cut underneath and asociated gaps (at least mine don't) so you have to put those in yourself if you want to go that route.

Sorry, I missed that bit in your reply. Just for clarity I work solely in N and have experience of Peco Settrack (insulated frog) and Peco Streamline (electrical frog). Sometimes you find advice on the web that talks about cutting links underneath or the frog rails then adding wires. None of that is necessary and for N scale at least probably weakens the turnout. The only physical alteration I would normally make to a turnout is to remove the centre spring so that my turnout motors (DCC Concepts Cobalt-SS) were able to move the blades.

 

In the early days of laying my current layout (electrofrog) I did pull out one of the wires under the frog because I thought they were supposed to be pigtails but I soon realised that was a mistake. If I was laying an N scale Peco electrofrog turnout all I'd do is:

• Remove the centre spring so that the blades are free moving.
• Solder droppers onto the two outer fixed rails.
• Solder a dropper onto the wires on the underside (sighing at Peco for not giving us a proper pigtail).
• Attach the turnout to the rest of the track using insulated joiners at the frog end.

 

I think now I'd probably go right ahead and connect the frog dropper to the turnout controller frog output because I trust the process but initially I just let the frog droppers sit unused for 'fear' of screwing something up 😳.

Edited October 16, 2023 by AndrueC

[n9]

27 minutes ago, cctransuk said:

Stay-alives are recent inventions - good running was and is achievable without them - despite recent protestations to the contrary!

 

CJI.

Do you by any chance have a suggestion on how, through "good trackwork," I can achieve good running for my 03 on those Unifrog points that have insulated sections that coincide exactly with its wheels? (The pic in my first post shows this.)

 

6 minutes ago, WIMorrison said:

I have been at 3 exhibitions in as many weeks, exhibiting at two of them, and the thing I noticed on several of the layouts was the superb running that was being demonstrated, especially noticeable on the shunting planks when trains were stopping wherever needed, not avoiding turnouts, frogs or blades - and something that was also evident was that all of these layouts were DC, which immediately rules out the ability to use, or rely upon stay-alives, in fact the only layout where I saw issues in running was actually a DCC layout which actually had stay-alives fitted to the locos (according to the owner)

 

So is good, reliable running possible without stay-alives? Absolutely, many layouts have been demonstrating this for many years and they are still showing that good running is down to good, and appropriate trackwork.

Very interesting you should mention this just now, since in my recent testing I've been switching a lot between DC and DCC, and the performance (power wise) of the 03 on DC blows away its prerformace on DCC. It's not as smooth running of course, but DC seems to provide it with a lot more grunt or torque. (Makes sense I suppose, since more current will be going to the motor rather than into DCC processing.)

 

The 03 is still not as good as other larger locos (obviously), but the stall rate is actually quite minimal even on the Unifrogs - to the point that I'd actually be quite happy with its performance if I were sticking with DC.

 

That said, I'm also getting somewhere with shimming the big pot holes in Peco's frogs (talked about in this thread) and I think this is also going to help my 03 on the Unifrogs on DCC. I'll be testing that more over the coming days.

 

 

[John Isherwood]

1 minute ago, n9 said:

Do you by any chance have a suggestion on how, through "good trackwork," I can achieve good running for my 03 on those Unifrog points that have insulated sections that coincide exactly with its wheels?

 

Nope - it's an unfortunate coincidence, and largely attributable to the fact that a tiny gap becomes critical at 2mm. scale.

 

Science is like that - sh*t happens ; some things simply can't be overcome.

 

CJI.

[WIMorrison]

3 minutes ago, n9 said:

Do you by any chance have a suggestion on how, through "good trackwork," I can achieve good running for my 03 on those Unifrog points that have insulated sections that coincide exactly with its wheels? (The pic in my first post shows this.)

 

Use electrofrog points and wire them correctly by switching the frog externally and ensure that the blades are bonded, I haven't ever seen a layout using insulfrog or unifrog turnout provide good running.

 

6 minutes ago, n9 said:

Very interesting you should mention this just now, since in my recent testing I've been switching a lot between DC and DCC, and the performance (power wise) of the 03 on DC blows away its prerformace on DCC. It's not as smooth running of course, but DC seems to provide it with a lot more grunt or torque. (Makes sense I suppose, since more current will be going to the motor rather than into DCC processing.)

 

 I was mentioning DC only to show that good running is eminently possible without stay-alives which only mask issues, they don.t solve them. DCC does not consume 'power' depriving the motor of power. It is actually the converse because DCC provides what DC owners call PWM 100% of the time and gives vastly superior running when compared to DC, something that I responded to in this thread yesterday

 

Lets talk PWM controllers. - Electrics (non-DCC) - RMweb

[298]

38 minutes ago, cctransuk said:

 

I don't quite follow that.

 

Good trackwork can be made to look abandoned / neglected cosmetically, without compromising the good running that well-constructed track allows.

 

Stay-alives are recent inventions - good running was and is achievable without them - despite recent protestations to the contrary!

 

CJI.

 

I didn't have much luck on a previous layout where similar locos would stall at the merest hint of one strand of static grass near a rail, so that's why I find stay alives to be invaluable. 

 

[John Isherwood]

7 minutes ago, WIMorrison said:

 

Use electrofrog points and wire them correctly by switching the frog externally and ensure that the blades are bonded, I haven't ever seen a layout using insulfrog or unifrog turnout provide good running.

 

 

 I was mentioning DC only to show that good running is eminently possible without stay-alives which only mask issues, they don.t solve them. DCC does not consume 'power' depriving the motor of power. It is actually the converse because DCC provides what DC owners call PWM 100% of the time and gives vastly superior running when compared to DC, something that I responded to in this thread yesterday

 

Lets talk PWM controllers. - Electrics (non-DCC) - RMweb

 

Not sure what PWM is - but my cheapo Chinese voltage regulator controllers deliver a variable voltage, rather than limiting the current via variable resistors or more sophisticated electrickery.

 

Whatever, they provide the smoothest acceleration and deceleration that one could desire.

 

CJI.

[n9]

13 minutes ago, cctransuk said:

 

Nope - it's an unfortunate coincidence, and largely attributable to the fact that a tiny gap becomes critical at 2mm. scale.

 

Science is like that - sh*t happens ; some things simply can't be overcome.

 

CJI.

Ha! Your honesty gave me a good chuckle.

 

But there's always a way... I have half a mind to revert the Unifrogs to work like Electrofrogs. Not a simple endeavour, so I'll keep that as a Plan C for now.

53 minutes ago, AndrueC said:

Sorry, I missed that bit in your reply. Just for clarity I work solely in N and have experience of Peco Settrack (insulated frog) and Peco Streamline (electrical frog). Sometimes you find advice on the web that talks about cutting links underneath or the frog rails then adding wires. None of that is necessary and for N scale at least probably weakens the turnout. The only physical alteration I would normally make to a turnout is to remove the centre spring so that my turnout motors (DCC Concepts Cobalt-SS) were able to move the blades.

 

In the early days of laying my current layout (electrofrog) I did pull out one of the wires under the frog because I thought they were supposed to be pigtails but I soon realised that was a mistake. If I was laying an N scale Peco electrofrog turnout all I'd do is:

• Remove the centre spring so that the blades are free moving.
• Solder droppers onto the two outer fixed rails.
• Solder a dropper onto the wires on the underside (sighing at Peco for not giving us a proper pigtail).
• Attach the turnout to the rest of the track using insulated joiners at the frog end.

 

I think now I'd probably go right ahead and connect the frog dropper to the turnout controller frog output because I trust the process but initially I just let the frog droppers sit unused for 'fear' of screwing something up 😳.

 

I think we must have watched many of the same YouTube videos! So I'm sure I've ticked many of the same boxes.

 

 

9 minutes ago, WIMorrison said:

 

Use electrofrog points and wire them correctly by switching the frog externally and ensure that the blades are bonded, I haven't ever seen a layout using insulfrog or unifrog turnout provide good running.

 

 

 I was mentioning DC only to show that good running is eminently possible without stay-alives which only mask issues, they don.t solve them. DCC does not consume 'power' depriving the motor of power. It is actually the converse because DCC provides what DC owners call PWM 100% of the time and gives vastly superior running when compared to DC, something that I responded to in this thread yesterday

 

Lets talk PWM controllers. - Electrics (non-DCC) - RMweb

 

Peco don't seem to make the medium points as Electrofrogs any more, otherwise I would gladly change them without batting an eyelid.

 

I stand corrected on the power thing. Thanks! That said, my 03 doesn't seem to struggle on the Unifrogs when it's on DC like it does when it's on DCC. But thinking about it more, it may be that minimum speed on my DC controller is faster than the minimum speed I can get out of my DCC setup.

 

 

 

[John Isherwood]

1 minute ago, n9 said:

I have half a mind to revert the Unifrogs to work like Electrofrogs.

 

Ha-ha - there's your problem; I hadn't appreciated that you were operating the frogs as anything other than Electrofrogs!

 

Absolutely essential, IMHO.

 

CJI.

[n9]

Just now, cctransuk said:

 

Ha-ha - there's your problem; I hadn't appreciated that you were operating the frogs as anything other than Electrofrogs!

 

Absolutely essential, IMHO.

 

CJI.

No no. My Unifrogs have live and switched frogs. I was referring to removing the insulated gaps on the Unifrogs - replace them with rail or conductive paint or something. And undo the extra wiring they come with. In other words, make the Unifrogs work exactly like the Electrofrogs do.