Running on Filthy track

[Nearholmer]

You do realise that I’m just winding you all up …… to go clockwork?

 

I honestly think the OP would find it very useful to him.

 

 

 

 

Edited October 4, 2023 by Nearholmer

[St Enodoc]

17 hours ago, kevinlms said:

The photos were just sufficiently not quite clear to see what the photo was of. Rather like the photos in RM in the 1950s.

IIRC the photos were of the real Underground, cut-and-pasted into an image of the floor.

[St Enodoc]

13 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

crudification

Word of the day.

[sncf231e]

2 hours ago, F-UnitMad said:

Following that line of reasoning to it's logical conclusion, it is unrealistic to have electric motors powering miniature models of steam & diesel locomotives.

So we all might as well just give up now.... 🙄🤦‍♂️🤷‍♂️

Of course I will not give up:

 

Regards

Fred

[F-UnitMad]

5 hours ago, sncf231e said:

Of course I will not give up:

 

Regards

Fred

I did say 'miniature'. In my book Gauge 1 is not miniature, & live steam is not particularly conducive to indoor layouts, although I expect it has been done, including, as the Pedants will point out, the Hornby effort at live steam OO a few years ago.

[sncf231e]

4 hours ago, F-UnitMad said:

I did say 'miniature'. In my book Gauge 1 is not miniature, & live steam is not particularly conducive to indoor layouts, although I expect it has been done, including, as the Pedants will point out, the Hornby effort at live steam OO a few years ago.

Excuses for my broad view on railway modelling.

Regards

Fred

[The Johnster]

23 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

The thing is chaps, the system that’s unrealistic is two-rail

 

Now, that's just being tongue-in-cheek contentious by deliberate misuse of semantics🤔.  The system that's less feasible in practical terms is two-rail, but it is the more realistic in the majority of applications other than where what is being modelled is third or fourth rail electrified systems.  The 00 systems we have are rooted in the late 1930s and were cutting edge then, as was Rovex's RTR two-rail system a decade later.  Since then, only one thing has happened, DCC.  This shifts the control circuitry to the locomotive, operating it by sending coded pulses down the track.  I have never heard of it being applied to a 3-rail system, though I suppose it could be.  3-rail/stud in it's current H0 RTR forms is a dead duck in terms of realism, though sympathetically developed to be less conspicuours might have some future potential.  It still needs to be kept clean and maintained.

 

2-rail current collection in 4mm and less scales works against the odds despite being basically poor electrical and mechanical engineering, because well ballasted mechs with high-quality free-running motors driving through worm & idler gears to the main cog in conjunction with very precisely engineered wiper pickups is capable of giving satisfactory performance in terms of smooth, controllable, and reliable slow running, and smooth stops & starts.  But it is a triumph of miniature volume produced engineering over an arguably (at least, I'd argue the point, at whatever length you want) adverse and hostile environment.  But the adverse and hostile environment does not need much encouraging to tip the balance, and dirt at the current transfer interfaces will do that!  You only have to go back to the pancake motors of the 80s to see how fragile this technology is, and how well it's inherent problems have been (partially) overcome.

 

DCC is a step in the right direction, in that it supplies a constant 12vdc to the track and as far as the chip on the loco, but this is basically a crude but effective big hammer solution, beating current-interfering dirt and micro-gaps in the interfaces into submission with overwhelming 12v firepower.  It has not been improved in half a century.  DC has not been improved in 60 years since the use of feedback and PWM, though some development of the user interface using NFC has occurred.  To achieve good slow control with DC means that you are asking the model to perform at the lowest voltage at precisely the time when any problems are at their proportionally worst effect; it can be done, and is, but needs all the help it can get from the track and your cleaning regime!

 

The R/C people are heading in the right direction, but a control chip is needed, servos ain't gonna cut the fine control mustard.

 

It is my view that we need something new that hasn't been done before💡.

 

Real trains are either steam (reciprocal or turbine), or diesel powered with mechanical, electric or hydraulic transmissions.  The difference from diesel-electric propulsion with pure electric locmotives is that the traction motors are fed ultimately from the 3rd rail or OLE, but the current has to be rectified and modulated first.  Some early electric locomotives were mechanically driven with jackshafts,  We can say that, as a generalisation, real locomotives are powered from something aboard themselves to all intents and purposes.

 

This is what we should, IMHO, be aiming for in our models.  R/C cars, boats, and aircraft do this, because there is no other way to propel them (for the sake of this discussion I am regarding slot cars as a sort of model railway).  We should be aiming for this for two reasons, which I am not presenting in any particular order of preference, one being that it is what the real thing does, and our attitude to controlling our models is that we will have to driver them properly because if we don't they'll crash and keep going after they have left the track, which will encourage better driving habits and focus our attention on what we are doing, and the other being because the models will run quantum better.  Any issue that is being currently experienced with poor pickup, from dirt, poor tracklaying, maladjusted pickups will simpy cease to exist.

 

What I am suggesting is an extension of DCC chip control technology eliminating the supply of current from the track to the locomotive.  Nothing revolutionary, it's all been done before, just not put together like this.  This is what I have in mind; basic requirement specifications of NFC system:-

 

. Rechargeable power source on board locomotive configured for continual recharging while in use, including while running.  Ideally, this power source will be heavy and shaped to occupy as much ballast space as each model requires.  Obviously, it will be more powerful or capable of longer running times without charge in a big diesel than a small industrial well tank.  This reflects reality.

. No wire or other physical connection to locomotive for recharging or control purposes.

. No electrical current passing between rails and wheels, or wheels and pickups (in fact, no pickups).

. 100% compatibility with existing systems; NFC locomotives will be able to run alongside your existing locos on your existing layout.

 

This can, I think, be achieved in the following ways:-

 

. On-board power supply feeding low-current consumption coreless motors.

. NFC recharging of power supply.  (This will be in two froms, 'partial NFC, a 'recharging dock siding' where the loco is parked for recharging on 'conventional' DC/DCC layouts, or 'full NFC', which will not be compatble with conventionally controlled locomotives or layouts.  This will feature an NFC strip beneath the track, which can now be plastic or made of any material you like.  'Conventional' track can be used buy will have to be relaid with the NFC strip beneath it.  In this form, continuous recharging of the power supply by the NFC can be achieved.

. NFC-operated chip control of motor speed and direction.

. Hand-held controller with default emergency stop setting that has to be disabled by being held down against light spring pressure. 

. Control chip to include facility for 'whistles and bells' such as sound fx, lighting, &c, as per DCC. 

 

As the loco chassis or bogie frame can now be made of non-metallic material, I would expect the development of flexible components to enable a degree of simple compensation to be incorporated in each mech, without the need for conventional springs.  This would be cheap in terms of production engineering and assembly costs, and should further improve slow running and traction. 

 

There is a further possibility, but I do not know enough about it to state that I think it is a practical solution.  That is traction current transfer to the locomotive from the NFC strip under the track.  I know that small voltages can be transferred in this way, but suspect it is 'lossy' and may not be developed to the degree where it is practical for model railway use.

 

Were I to come into big win Lotto sums of money, I am hereby stating that I am willing to put my money where my mouth, or typing finger, is, and attempt to develop such a system commercially myself, with the benefit of the hobby taking priority over personal profit, though the aim would be to at least cover costs...

 

 

 

 

[Nearholmer]

There are multiple variants of the sorts of systems you envisage already in being Johnster, most commonly in larger scales such as 16mm/ft, where the on-board power is derived from either battery storage or steam, typically gas-fired, there are also physically smaller variants used in 0 and 00/H0, and I’m 99% sure that there  are prototype, if not production, contact and induction charging systems that charge batteries without the need to plug leads in (although TBH that isn’t exactly a major task).

 

Possibly the most interesting mass production and sale system is Lionchief, used by Lionel, which is quite happy to work from track power (AC or DC) or from on-board batteries.

 

I guess what makes it all so slow to happen in 00/H0 is s combination of conservatism and the challenges of miniaturisation, especially of batteries.

Edited October 5, 2023 by Nearholmer

[kevinlms]

I suppose if the suggestions being made in the 1950s, nuclear power would be so cheap to produce, that it wouldn't be worth charging customers for using it!

So having a micro-nuclear reactor in a loco, would be the logical follow on.

[JeremyC]

Does any manufacturer make a 16.5mm gauge track cleaner similar to the one LGB produce for 45mm gauge?

https://www.lgb.com/products/details/article/21671

[OnTheBranchline]

I just want to point out that the OP has not come back to the thread in a few days - not sure if he took the comments in here too well or not.

Edited October 5, 2023 by OnTheBranchline

[TinTracks]

15 hours ago, The Johnster said:

I have never heard of it being applied to a 3-rail system,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6c8P592ENCc

 

Hi. An interesting youtube vid link above. DCC 3 rail Dublo in what looks a bit like a wine cellar! 

 Regards, Rich

 

[Torper]

41 minutes ago, OnTheBranchline said:

I just want to point out that the OP has not come back to the thread in a few days - not sure if he took the comments in here too well or not.

 

Maybe he was having us on all the time and is now chuckling to himself.  Look - four pages of largely serious comments on how to run 4mm locos on filthy ttrack!

[John Isherwood]

42 minutes ago, OnTheBranchline said:

I just want to point out that the OP has not come back to the thread in a few days - not sure if he took the comments in here too well or not.

 

He got the response that he deserved - frankly, it was a d*mned silly post in the first place!

 

CJI.

[John Isherwood]

1 minute ago, Torper said:

 

Maybe he was having us on all the time and is now chuckling to himself.  Look - four pages of largely serious comments on how to run 4mm locos on filthy ttrack!

 

It did cross my mind, I must confess!

 

CJI.

[Rich_F]

47 minutes ago, OnTheBranchline said:

I just want to point out that the OP has not come back to the thread in a few days - not sure if he took the comments in here too well or not.

 

Was looking for the best post on how to recreate 3rd rail arcing when trains run past! 🤣

[F-UnitMad]

5 hours ago, Torper said:

 

Maybe he was having us on all the time and is now chuckling to himself.  Look - four pages of largely serious comments on how to run 4mm locos on filthy ttrack!

I thought it was four pages of how 4mm locos don't run on filthy track..??

[OnTheBranchline]

54 minutes ago, F-UnitMad said:

I thought it was four pages of how 4mm locos don't run on filthy track..??

 

Now I'm really tempted to run locos on filthy track and report back! 😁

Edited October 5, 2023 by OnTheBranchline

[F-UnitMad]

6 minutes ago, OnTheBranchline said:

 

Now I'm really tempted to run locos on filthy track and report back! 😁

That's what the OP was going to do. 😉

[kevinlms]

10 hours ago, OnTheBranchline said:

I just want to point out that the OP has not come back to the thread in a few days - not sure if he took the comments in here too well or not.

But the OP has some different ideas about the ways in how model railways and especially electricity works. Lots of threads for a long time. No resistors required for LEDs, is one such example, glowing rail joiners is another.

[Butler Henderson]

11 hours ago, OnTheBranchline said:

 

Now I'm really tempted to run locos on filthy track and report back! 😁

Make sure you book an afternoon afterwards to clean all the wheels.

[Wheatley]

19 hours ago, Torper said:

 

Maybe he was having us on all the time and is now chuckling to himself.  Look - four pages of largely serious comments on how to run 4mm locos on filthy ttrack!

Somewhere on New Railway Modellers is a thread where I and others attempt to convince someone that a) you can't get Birmingham New Street on an 8x4 board on OO, even with Setrack points, and b) building the girder overbridges out of actual steel plate "because that's the only authentic way of doing it" is just nuts. One of the contributers was Jim Smith-Wright who ought to know. Eventually we concluded it was a wind up.  

[OnTheBranchline]

2 hours ago, Butler Henderson said:

Make sure you book an afternoon afterwards to clean all the wheels.

Use petrol for the best results!

Edited October 6, 2023 by OnTheBranchline

[Red Devil]

Lot to be said for never having to clean your track.....😉

and yeah this post is more than a bit tongue in cheek.....

 

Edited October 6, 2023 by Red Devil

[OnTheBranchline]

3 hours ago, Wheatley said:

Somewhere on New Railway Modellers is a thread where I and others attempt to convince someone that a) you can't get Birmingham New Street on an 8x4 board on OO, even with Setrack points, and b) building the girder overbridges out of actual steel plate "because that's the only authentic way of doing it" is just nuts. One of the contributers was Jim Smith-Wright who ought to know. Eventually we concluded it was a wind up.  

Why waste modelling time or even life in general just to take the piss out of random people on the internet? 
 

I assume that bloke isn’t a serious modeller. 

Edited October 6, 2023 by OnTheBranchline