Greater Anglia / TfW Class 755 & Class 756 FLIRT Units

[ColinB]

46 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

Three speakers, each separately activated by a different F numbers accordingly ?.. same way as Fans / lights are today on other models ?

Exactly that was my reaction. Sorry but looking at what Hornby are trying to achieve, yes it is possible but I think they are trying to run before they can walk. We will see when it gets released. I think the guys with DCC will have bigger issues, either you give each decoder a different id or give them the same one and hope Hornby have put the electrical and diesel functions on different numbers. Anyway it is not out yet so we don't know

[ruggedpeak]

I am currently travelling on a FLIRT towards Cambridge in diesel mode and I can say that the engine noise is very location specific when heard from outside the train. Much more so than older DMUs like 15x units because the large FLIRT power unit is mid train and at full height rather than below platform level, where sound is dispersed to some degree.

 

With a decent speaker in the model I think the diesel mode will be quite distinctive as it passes and properly representative of the real thing.

[ColinB]

5 minutes ago, ruggedpeak said:

I am currently travelling on a FLIRT towards Cambridge in diesel mode and I can say that the engine noise is very location specific when heard from outside the train. Much more so than older DMUs like 15x units because the large FLIRT power unit is mid train and at full height rather than below platform level, where sound is dispersed to some degree.

 

With a decent speaker in the model I think the diesel mode will be quite distinctive as it passes and properly representative of the real thing.

I don't think there is an issue with the diesel unit, that decoder I assume will drive the motor. It is the two electrical units at either end of the train. Can you hear the electrics above the roar of the diesel?

[NXEA!]

5 minutes ago, ColinB said:

I don't think there is an issue with the diesel unit, that decoder I assume will drive the motor. It is the two electrical units at either end of the train. Can you hear the electrics above the roar of the diesel?

No, and that’s the point, and likely the reason behind Hornby’s approach - if sat on the raised seats next to the cabs, all you’ll hear are the whining of the traction motors beneath you, and the cab noises, it’s like being on an EMU, no diesel noises at all. Sit next to the middle Power Vehicle in one of the intermediate and its the opposite, loud diesel thrash with no trace of any EMU noises whatsoever. Away from either of those areas, and it’s dead quiet, almost like being in a Mark 3 or something similar. 

[ruggedpeak]

1 minute ago, NXEA! said:

No, and that’s the point, and likely the reason behind Hornby’s approach - if sat on the raised seats next to the cabs, all you’ll hear are the whining of the traction motors beneath you, and the cab noises, it’s like being on an EMU, no diesel noises at all. Sit next to the middle Power Vehicle in one of the intermediate and its the opposite, loud diesel thrash with no trace of any EMU noises whatsoever. Away from either of those areas, and it’s dead quiet, almost like being in a Mark 3 or something similar. 

I am sat behind the driver's cab and the electric motors are audible but the diesel unit is not.

 

If you sit near the diesel unit it is noisy and very noisy if you choose to walk through it. There does not seem to be a lot of sound insulation

[ruggedpeak]

Noise profile of FLIRT at idle. Diesel noise concentrated in the area between the doorsets either side of the PP.

 

 

 

[ColinB]

33 minutes ago, NXEA! said:

No, and that’s the point, and likely the reason behind Hornby’s approach - if sat on the raised seats next to the cabs, all you’ll hear are the whining of the traction motors beneath you, and the cab noises, it’s like being on an EMU, no diesel noises at all. Sit next to the middle Power Vehicle in one of the intermediate and its the opposite, loud diesel thrash with no trace of any EMU noises whatsoever. Away from either of those areas, and it’s dead quiet, almost like being in a Mark 3 or something similar. 

You are not sitting on the seats, you are probably  at least half a metre away. So what would you hear as it passes you on a station.

[NXEA!]

22 minutes ago, ColinB said:

You are not sitting on the seats, you are probably  at least half a metre away. So what would you hear as it passes you on a station.

You would hear what I described in my initial post approximately 5 hours earlier on the second page of this thread - Hornby’s proposed approach to my mind is the best and most realistic way to capture the different distinctive sounds in the separate parts of the train. Suggest we just need to trust them and see what the final product sounds like rather than speculating, I’m sure it’ll be bang on. 

[ColinB]

1 hour ago, NXEA! said:

You would hear what I described in my initial post approximately 5 hours earlier on the second page of this thread - Hornby’s proposed approach to my mind is the best and most realistic way to capture the different distinctive sounds in the separate parts of the train. Suggest we just need to trust them and see what the final product sounds like rather than speculating, I’m sure it’ll be bang on. 

Probably, but a nightmare to run, 3 decoders to control. Try doing that with an Elite. I have a Digikeijs so not so difficult. Coming from a programming background, I suspect the HMI for HM7000 will be interesting.

[Kaput]

4 hours ago, ColinB said:

I don't think there is an issue with the diesel unit, that decoder I assume will drive the motor. It is the two electrical units at either end of the train. Can you hear the electrics above the roar of the diesel?

 

Pretty sure Hornby revealed ages ago that the motor was in one of the end cars and not the Diesel power pack sadly.

[ColinB]

1 minute ago, Kaput said:

 

Pretty sure Hornby revealed ages ago that the motor was in one of the end cars and not the Diesel power pack sadly.

My apologies I just assumed that would be the logical place. We just have to wait and see what their actual practical solution is and whether it works.

[phil-b259]

8 hours ago, locoholic said:

Do the doors open on these models? If not, what is the point of having multiple decoders when every time the model stops at a station the doors never open?! Just seems like adding complexity and cost for the sake of it. 

 

As I see it the multiple decoders are to do with where the traction motors and diesel engine / generators are located and nothing to do with the doors.

 

As others have explained this is not a DMU - its an EMU (with the powered bogies being at the outer ends of the unit) with an intermediate power car.

 

Therefore you require 3 different sounds to come out of 3 different areas of the train - plus of course there are things like train horns which are mounted on the ends and not in the middle of the train.

 

That  is why a 3 decoder setup has been chosen 

[GrumpyPenguin]

9 hours ago, adb968008 said:

Three speakers, each separately activated by a different F numbers accordingly ?.. same way as Fans / lights are today on other models ?

Not quite as easy as that - Function outputs for fans/lights are a constant  output - either on or off.

Speakers require an audio output.

[locoholic]

9 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

 

As I see it the multiple decoders are to do with where the traction motors and diesel engine / generators are located and nothing to do with the doors.

 

As others have explained this is not a DMU - its an EMU (with the powered bogies being at the outer ends of the unit) with an intermediate power car.

 

Therefore you require 3 different sounds to come out of 3 different areas of the train - plus of course there are things like train horns which are mounted on the ends and not in the middle of the train.

 

That  is why a 3 decoder setup has been chosen 

Yes, I realise that. My point is that having all these subtle sound functions is a waste of money if something as fundamental and noticeable as the doors opening isn't available. If I've read the Hornby blurb correctly, the door sounds will be there, but the doors won't open, which is just comical.

[E100]

Unless I'm mistaken there doesn't appear to be an obvious way to run this on pure DCC without changing multiple decoders at the same time somehow. How you get the two electrical ends to accelerate at the same time is not easily clear to me.

 

(As an aside - if someone knows of a better thread to discuss further please let me know)

 

With the power (computing and electrical) capabilities of the latest decoders it does feel like this is an opportunity for ESU/ZIMO to come up with a new type of decoder aimed at multiple units (up to four channels would suffice). Of course this would need to be bigger than the equivalent single channel decoder but if it's low profile then having a slightly longer but still relatively thin decoder would probably fit the bill for most units I'd imagine. They don't need to drive especially punchy speakers as with most units I know of aren't especially loud compared to say a first/second generation diesel locomotive. A dual channel option that fits in a tender would also work well for steam locos.

 

I'd imagine the quad channel would be around double the size of a standard 21MTC / Plux 22 give or take a bit. 

[GrumpyPenguin]

28 minutes ago, locoholic said:

Yes, I realise that. My point is that having all these subtle sound functions is a waste of money if something as fundamental and noticeable as the doors opening isn't available. If I've read the Hornby blurb correctly, the door sounds will be there, but the doors won't open, which is just comical.

You can have opening doors if you convert to the "Dark Side" - Roco produced them some time ago in HO.

 

May as well get rid of the other sounds that build up an audible picture then as they don't have the associated movement (firebox doors, firemans shovels ect).

 

I doubt very much if these sounds cost much to develope/load into small audio files anyway.

 

Many other things that could be fitted, at a cost - operating pantographs, drivers appearing at the "front" - Marklin/Trix if you want it (Dark Side again).

 

I'm no Hornby Fan Boy but it seems to me that they cannot win with this one as they seem to be trying for the middle road between the die-hard modeller and the train set people.

(Please excuse the terminology, not intenede to offend).

[locoholic]

4 hours ago, GrumpyPenguin said:

May as well get rid of the other sounds that build up an audible picture then...

Yes, I agree. I've yet to see a DCC sound layout that is remotely convincing. If I want authentic sounds, smoke, opening doors, etc, I go to a heritage railway! :)

[ruggedpeak]

1 hour ago, locoholic said:

Yes, I agree. I've yet to see a DCC sound layout that is remotely convincing. If I want authentic sounds, smoke, opening doors, etc, I go to a heritage railway! :)

So to summarise, multiple posts criticising Hornby and the FLIRT model simply because you don't like DCC sound in general.

[phil-b259]

7 hours ago, E100 said:

Unless I'm mistaken there doesn't appear to be an obvious way to run this on pure DCC without changing multiple decoders at the same time somehow. How you get the two electrical ends to accelerate at the same time is not easily clear to me.

 

 

In the model, only ONE vehicle is driven thus only one decoder is responsible for the models physical movement - so in terms of acceleration then there is no need to worry about two decoders fighting each other or not being matched.

 

The other two decoders are simply accessory decoders to operate the lights and sound functions in the relevant vehicles - and yes it does introduce complexity as all three decoders will have to be linked in your DCC controllers software if you want said lights and sounds to operate correctly

 

[ColinB]

19 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

 

In the model, only ONE vehicle is driven thus only one decoder is responsible for the models physical movement - so in terms of acceleration then there is no need to worry about two decoders fighting each other or not being matched.

 

The other two decoders are simply accessory decoders to operate the lights and sound functions in the relevant vehicles - and yes it does introduce complexity as all three decoders will have to be linked in your DCC controllers software if you want said lights and sounds to operate correctly

 

Yes that is what Hornby are hoping to do with the HM7000 App. To me the setup on a Smartphone or even a pad will be horrendous, a lot of people have enough trouble getting a couple of locos to work properly (see the posts). I doubt you can do it on existing DCC controllers, it might work with a consist but we are talking 3 rather than two. Should be interesting when it finally gets released.

[locoholic]

1 hour ago, ruggedpeak said:

So to summarise, multiple posts criticising Hornby and the FLIRT model simply because you don't like DCC sound in general.

Not really - sound has been available for years, hasn't it, but I haven't mentioned it before? What prompted my comment was Hornby sticking three sound chips in one unit, including door noises, whilst the doors don't actually open. It just struck me as being a bit OTT. I shan't mention it again, I promise.

[phil-b259]

1 minute ago, locoholic said:

Not really - sound has been available for years, hasn't it, but I haven't mentioned it before? What prompted my comment was Hornby sticking three sound chips in one unit, including door noises, whilst the doors don't actually open. It just struck me as being a bit OTT. I shan't mention it again, I promise.

But as has been explained many times even if there were no door sounds on the unit whatever you would still need 3 decoders so fundamental sounds like the whine of traction motors or the Revs of the diesel powered generator car cone from the correct places on the unit!

 

Unlike ‘door opening sounds when the doors don’t open’  the sounds the train makes as it moves away are accompanied by actual train movement so everything goes together.

 

Many modellers do at least strive for realism in their modelling and a train horn emanating from the middle of a train is just plain wrong when the horns are always mounted at the ends (which would mean at least 2 decoders) for example. Similarly having the throaty Rostov a diesel engine coming from the driving cab at one end is equally daft.

 

This is the perils of sound fitted models - if you don’t want them to sound like cheap toys then the investment in multiple decoders per train must be understood to be part and parcel of that.

[wombatofludham]

Surely rather than "consisting" you would give the two noise only chips in the outer cars the same address as the noise and motion control chip in the centre power pack, thereby controlling everything at once?  I did that with an HST with noise and motion in one car and noise only in the other.  The lights worked fine as did the noise.  It just didn't like my tight curves but that wasn't a DCC issue.  I used Hornby's TTS chips with replacement speakers and because they were from the same batch, didn't have any need to consist or anything like that.

I think I can understand why Hornby have gone for a 3 chip design, and with their HM7000 chips not being that expensive I think the added bonus of getting the different noises coming out of the right places will make up for the slightly more expensive arrangement.

I have to say the Flirt is too modern for me but if this is an early sign that Hornby might be taking units seriously (instead of freaks like the APT) then it'll be one to watch.  I do like the model, it is a really good and somewhat unexpected effort from Hornby (I do wonder if Mr Kohler had to lie down in a darkened room with a soundtrack of Terriers chuffing after announcing it) and I'm sure it'll be welcomed by many.

I do wonder if the "3" car units will accurately replicate the air raid siren effect the shorty Flirts became notorious for a while back?

[ColinB]

1 hour ago, wombatofludham said:

Surely rather than "consisting" you would give the two noise only chips in the outer cars the same address as the noise and motion control chip in the centre power pack, thereby controlling everything at once?  I did that with an HST with noise and motion in one car and noise only in the other.  The lights worked fine as did the noise.  It just didn't like my tight curves but that wasn't a DCC issue.  I used Hornby's TTS chips with replacement speakers and because they were from the same batch, didn't have any need to consist or anything like that.

I think I can understand why Hornby have gone for a 3 chip design, and with their HM7000 chips not being that expensive I think the added bonus of getting the different noises coming out of the right places will make up for the slightly more expensive arrangement.

I have to say the Flirt is too modern for me but if this is an early sign that Hornby might be taking units seriously (instead of freaks like the APT) then it'll be one to watch.  I do like the model, it is a really good and somewhat unexpected effort from Hornby (I do wonder if Mr Kohler had to lie down in a darkened room with a soundtrack of Terriers chuffing after announcing it) and I'm sure it'll be welcomed by many.

I do wonder if the "3" car units will accurately replicate the air raid siren effect the shorty Flirts became notorious for a while back?

I only said "consisting" as I gather Hornby is working on it, I imagine to meet this requirement. My HSTs have the same DCC address. As I said before we will just have to wait and see. Lets just hope they have learnt from their Black 5 issues.

[GrumpyPenguin]

2 hours ago, wombatofludham said:

Surely rather than "consisting" you would give the two noise only chips in the outer cars the same address as the noise and motion control chip in the centre power pack, thereby controlling everything at once?

Exactly !