Improve running on insulfrogs?

[Tomathee]

Hi, apologies if this has been covered, I couldn't seem to find it on the search or google.

 

I have a couple of setrack (therefore insulfrog) points on my latest project, forced into using for space reasons. I've started testing and maybe as predicted have the odd issue with stuttering or stalling, even more so as it will be mostly 040 or 060 on the layout. If I've hopefully understood correctly over the years this is due to poor contact between the switch rail and stock rail. On our other layout I've resolved this/never had the issue by having electrofrog points and either used the Peco PL13 accessory switch attached to their underboard point motors or a Gaugemaster GM500 universal relay switch when I've had to use a side mounted motor.

Obviously with these there's no metal frog with a wire as with the electrofrogs but I wanted to know if there is a reason I can't add droppers before the insulated frogs, thereby always powering the closure rails and in turn switch blades. If possible I believe this would make a better connection to the switch blades than currently relying on the stock rails, (as far as I can see it would be ill advised to try and wire directly to the switch rails that need as much freedom as possible to move).

 

Apologies for brain dumping, I have google open and a spare point I've been staring at for a while. Using the pic, if I have insulated joiners at green then add droppers in the orange and purple section on the left of the pic. To my knowledge they don't short each other as it's a plastic frog, the factory wiring carries the current through and when the point is switched the blade contact with the stock rail may add an extra point of electrical contact.

I guess that's everything that's been running through my mind on this, looking forward for any responses, or if it's a 'no you blind fool you missed this obvious problem it will cause' and I need to either clean and keep clean the track even more so around those areas. At one end I think I could swap a short radius electrofrog point but the other end looks almost impossible with what I have.

 

Thanks

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

This is a no risk modification, in that you can disconnect the extra droppers. Potential problem, a short on some wheelsets at the crossing with the two live rails so close, probably fixable if it happens by some adjustment of back to back.

 

The intrinsic problem with a moulded plastic crossing is that it is often the high spot on the point, so a  slow moving loco can stall because the wheel on the crossing lifts the other wheels that side clear of the rail. Some careful bending to make the point as flat as possible, and if necessary shaving down the top of the crossing once the point is laid, can bring about improvement.

[Flying Pig]

I've done this in the past to get round poor blade contct when reusing truly ancient points. The droppers were powered through the dpdt switch that also threw the point through wire-in-tube, which was wired as a pair of on-off switches so that only the closed blade was live.  This preserved the usual self-isolating feature of the point, but would also eliminate the risk of shorting across the frog in most locations.

[kevinlms]

33 minutes ago, Flying Pig said:

I've done this in the past to get round poor blade contct when reusing truly ancient points. The droppers were powered through the dpdt switch that also threw the point through wire-in-tube, which was wired as a pair of on-off switches so that only the closed blade was live.  This preserved the usual self-isolating feature of the point, but would also eliminate the risk of shorting across the frog in most locations.

Yes it works, but it requires a bit of effort to fix. Best to avoid the issue by working out a way to include live frog points.

[phil-b259]

3 hours ago, kevinlms said:

 Best to avoid the issue by working out a way to include live frog points.

 

Easer said than done considering the OP has specifically said they need to use setrack points for space reasons.

 

Given nobody makes electrofrog setrack what your comment is effectively telling them to do is either scrap the layout they have come up with or make their own trackwork (neither of which seems particularly helpful.

 

Given the constraints then adding extra droppers and paying extra attention to the back to backs (plus wheel / track cleaning) seems the most sensible option in this case.

[Flying Pig]

10 hours ago, Tomathee said:

Apologies for brain dumping, I have google open and a spare point I've been staring at for a while. Using the pic, if I have insulated joiners at green then add droppers in the orange and purple section on the left of the pic. To my knowledge they don't short each other as it's a plastic frog, the factory wiring carries the current through and when the point is switched the blade contact with the stock rail may add an extra point of electrical contact.

 

Or you could go for the simplest option and use Hornby point clips.  These are intended to maintain power to both roads regardless of the point setting on DCC layouts, but will also help with blade contact issues.  Of course, as noted above they won't address the fundamental problem of a dead frog.

 

3 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

Given nobody makes electrofrog setrack

 

Peco have just reworked their Setrack curved point with a Unifrog, so this may not always be the case.

[Tomathee]

21 hours ago, 34theletterbetweenB&D said:

This is a no risk modification, in that you can disconnect the extra droppers. Potential problem, a short on some wheelsets at the crossing with the two live rails so close, probably fixable if it happens by some adjustment of back to back.

 

The intrinsic problem with a moulded plastic crossing is that it is often the high spot on the point, so a  slow moving loco can stall because the wheel on the crossing lifts the other wheels that side clear of the rail. Some careful bending to make the point as flat as possible, and if necessary shaving down the top of the crossing once the point is laid, can bring about improvement.

 

Thanks, will go ahead and try it, also for the point on the plastic high spot, hadn't heard of or thought of that before but it's definitely possible that could be happening some of the time. I will try a bit of shaving if I'm still having problems after any wiring updates, I foresee my heavy handedness potentially causing more problems than it solves.

 

12 hours ago, Flying Pig said:

 

Or you could go for the simplest option and use Hornby point clips.  These are intended to maintain power to both roads regardless of the point setting on DCC layouts, but will also help with blade contact issues.  Of course, as noted above they won't address the fundamental problem of a dead frog.

 

 

Peco have just reworked their Setrack curved point with a Unifrog, so this may not always be the case.

 

Those point clips seem to give the same outcome as they suggest making on the underside of the Peco electrofrog points when you cut some existing joints and join the two rails together. I might do it just for overkill alongside the extra droppers that seem like they will help, however with a length of wire as well hidden as possible or even down through the board and back up, £10 for 20 paper clips is on the pricey side for me.

 

[AndrueC]

Do you have to use insulated joiners on the point rails? Is it a Hornby thing?

 

Peco N scale Insulfrog turnouts don't need insulating joiners on the point rails unless you have none-standard wheels on your rolling stock (such wheels can short at the frog due to the very small gap). Peco wire the point rails through to the corresponding switch blade so poor switch blade contact doesn't matter.

Edited August 14, 2023 by AndrueC

[kevinlms]

On 14/08/2023 at 13:25, phil-b259 said:

 

Easer said than done considering the OP has specifically said they need to use setrack points for space reasons.

 

Given nobody makes electrofrog setrack what your comment is effectively telling them to do is either scrap the layout they have come up with or make their own trackwork (neither of which seems particularly helpful.

 

Given the constraints then adding extra droppers and paying extra attention to the back to backs (plus wheel / track cleaning) seems the most sensible option in this case.

I said nothing of the sort about scrapping and you know it.

 

It's about forward planning to avoid such things in the first place. Plenty of advice elsewhere about problems with insulfrog points.

[phil-b259]

4 hours ago, kevinlms said:

I said nothing of the sort about scrapping and you know it.

 

It's about forward planning to avoid such things in the first place. Plenty of advice elsewhere about problems with insulfrog points.

It was implied rather than said outright (and without any malace I should say)

 

I agree forward planning is important (and have no issue with what you said about the desirability of Electroftogs in general) - however it sounds from what the OP days that we are past the stage where radical layout changes are acceptable, hence a ‘well I wouldn’t start from here if I were you’ type of advice doesn’t seem helpful.

[Tomathee]

21 hours ago, AndrueC said:

Do you have to use insulated joiners on the point rails? Is it a Hornby thing?

 

Peco N scale Insulfrog turnouts don't need insulating joiners on the point rails unless you have none-standard wheels on your rolling stock (such wheels can short at the frog due to the very small gap). Peco wire the point rails through to the corresponding switch blade so poor switch blade contact doesn't matter.

 

I don't think so, these were most likely used because of habit with previous electrofrogs, either way I'd add these extra droppers as I don't rely on the joiners to conduct anywhere.

 

Re. forward planning, absolutely agree. Forward planning was had in the sense of what was wanted from the layout, laying paper templates, checking clearances and so on. In this case the requirement to run around 3 wagons in the space available for that feature couldn't be met with the extra length needed for streamline points along with the shallower angle of them, needing further space still to clear the parked wagons. It was insulfrogs or go down to two wagons/forgo the loop and have a shuttle with nothing else to do. I think the lesson learned/positive is that I probably won't build a smaller layout than this in future and with a larger one that comes after/in addition to this I shouldn't see the issue again

[AndrueC]

Agree on use of droppers. I've attached them to every section of track on my layout except for some curves where I soldered the joiners to keep the shape.

[Nick Holliday]

As @34theletterbetweenB&D noted at the beginning, the intrinsic problem is the plastic frog, not the contact of the blades; after all, a large number of modellers have been quite happy to use unmodified Peco points and not reported problems in this area, although you work rewiring will have made things reliable. With a rigid chassis 0-4-0, you are relying on the one wheel on the metal part of the blades making contact whilst the other is on the plastic frog. If that frog is not exactly level with the rest of the track, contact can easily be lost, resulting in stalling or stuttering 

If careful fettling doesn’t resolve the issue, and you’re not in a position to have DCC with Stay Alive in all your smaller locos, then it might be possible to convert the frog to provide a suitable contact surface, although this would require some switching to ensure the frog is the correct polarity. I have no experience of this, but I have seen proposals whereby short lengths of rail have been inserted (perhaps this could be wire or shim), the plastic has been coated with conductive paint (probably a short term treatment requiring constant renewal) or even shim applied to gap to make contact with the flange (might not work for all locos and might cause bumpy rides).

[WIMorrison]

You can also use silver conductive paint to make the frog conductive but you then need to switch the frog polarity and may also need to fit insulated joiners on the heel of the frog 

[Andy Hayter]

The solution for improving pick up across the frog is to use silver (as in the metal) conductive paint does not ned to create the complexity of switching polarity.  I know some have said that they have found this to be ineffective or to need near constant renewal but I have found it to work well.  I conclude that there is conductive paint and there is conductive paint.

 

Mine is now 35+years old and was bought from an electronic component store in the days when such paint was often used for connecting components.  So my advice today would be to find a similar emporium and go for the jar with the highest silver content.  It won't be cheap.  It wasn't back when I bought mine.

 

In the context of using this it is important to understand how a wheel contacts the rail.  The vast majority of a rail is never in contact with the wheel or its flange due to the coning of the wheel.  The bit of the rail in contact is the top at the very inside of the track, and the top of the side - which can contact the flange.  So it is possible to paint the inside edge of the plastic frog to within perhaps 2mm of the tip of the frog and at the same time the top starting at full rail width and tapering down to nothing about 4-5mm from the frog.  It is essential that the plastic frog is not bridged electrically.  If you are not using stock with coarse flanges, you can further improve the situation be adding a sliver of thin plasticard to the  Vee check rail, which will hole wheels closer to the running rail at the critical frog.  

 

Important now is track maintenance.  If you use an abrasive track rubber, be prepared for regular replacement of the paint, since the rubber will abrade the paint.  I prefer to clean my track with near pure (ethyl) alcohol applied with a soft cloth.  IPA or Track Magic (R) will almost certainly do the job just as well.  

 

35 odd years on and the system still works and has never been touched up.  

[WIMorrison]

This is the paint that I use for creating conductive axles. I know it is expensive but having tried many of the alternatives this is by far the most cost effective as it works - and lasts - unlike many of the alternatives found on Amazon and eBay which work for a few months then deteriorate.

 

SCP03B Electrolube, Paint, Silver Conductive Paint, SCP | Farnell UK

 

I have axles that are now 4 years old and still conducting properly.

[DCB]

Oh well a couple of points   The weak point on set track points is generally the blade pivot.  Not the blade end contact.   You can clean the blade to  stock rail contact and on old set track the blade is pushed down onto the contact. Up to about 12VA Peco points seem fine, I don't get issues on 12 VA DC  with 1 amp cut outs . a lot of DCC is nearer 40VA,  4 amp.  and if you short out one of these points with 4  amps you get  issues.    My H0 layout is 24VA  and I have lots of problems with blade contacts and  even fishplates running heavy trains with multiple locos.   A massive amount of DCC layouts have bonding on the points to de isolate them and if you have tender pickups or wire extra pick up wagons to small shunters there is no need to have the blades powered at all.  likewise Electro frog points with switched frogs,    Some points are altered before the blades get damaged, many are altered after.

 I have a single axle pick up loco which I use as a test and it goes everywhere on my Electrofrog layout  except over long crossings, or the track gets cleaned until it does, and as long as the track is clean ish my Triang Polly 0-4-0 and Dock Shunter go everywhere on my Insulfrog layouts without stalling except when one of the three wheels on the ground  is on the frog.   Any problems are dirty contacts on the blade ends which can easily be cleaned , and blade pivots which are more difficult, impossible when they are ballasted
Ijust don't see the point of altering the wiring unless you want to use more than 12VA or 1 amp
its a lot easier to live frog a set track point than try to alter the wiring.
Set track points don't save space.  The Electo frog short Y is shorter than any Set Track point and there is little difference between the length of set track and small streamline points.  If anyone is capable of altering point wiring then shortening Set track points to give set track  points the streamline spacing which does make a considerable space saving.  The best answer for DC is to live frog the set track points and while you are at it reduce the track spacing from 60 odd mm to Streamline 50mm or 44mm is about as tight as RTR 00 can tolerate.

[WIMorrison]

3 hours ago, DCB said:

t outs . a lot of DCC is nearer 40VA,  4 amp.

where on earth are you seeing a 00 loco drawing 4A when a turnout changes direction? If you are seeing that much current draw then you have a seriously defective wiring problem.

[Free At Last]

3 hours ago, WIMorrison said:

where on earth

The Cotswolds, apparently.

[kevinlms]

On 17/08/2023 at 15:32, WIMorrison said:

where on earth are you seeing a 00 loco drawing 4A when a turnout changes direction? If you are seeing that much current draw then you have a seriously defective wiring problem.

Or motors with magnets completely shot!