Push pull variations - what could a PP fitted G5 have worked with?

[john new]

A basic question. I will shortly be receiving my pre-order push pull fitted G5. Was push pull gear a standardised universal fitting or, and I assume the most likely, different between companies? 
 

Even in a modelled preserved line situation I don’t want to make the numpties mistake of running it with what is obviously wrong, and totally incompatible, stock.

[johnofwessex]

• AFAIK

The GWR system is mechanical

The Southern & LNER used an air operated system (Westinghouse?)

The LMS used a vacuum system

 

So basically PP loco's only worked with their own companies stock

 

I dont know what PP gear was fitted to 'Standard' loco's but I think it was the LMS Vacuum system.

 

 

[Wickham Green too]

Yes, the Vacuum-Controlled gear fitted to 84000 tanks allocated to the Southern Region was incompatible with any local Pull & Push sets.

[Compound2632]

39 minutes ago, johnofwessex said:

The GWR system is mechanical

The Southern & LNER used an air operated system (Westinghouse?)

The LMS used a vacuum system

 

So basically PP loco's only worked with their own companies stock

 

The LMS vacuum-controlled regulator system originated on the Midland. The LNWR had used a different system, mechanical I think, but many of the driving trailers built for that system were converted to VCR operation, along with a number of ex-LNWR locos, in LMS days.

 

Was the system used by the NER that subsequently adopted by the LNER, or was it a GER system? (Both being Westinghouse lines.)

[john new]

Thank you for the responses. The push pull set I have is, I believe, based on an Ex-LMS (probably LNWR) set so as I expected inappropriate.

 

Edited July 20, 2023 by john new
Added LNWR

[Steamport Southport]

49 minutes ago, johnofwessex said:

• AFAIK

The GWR system is mechanical

The Southern & LNER used an air operated system (Westinghouse?)

The LMS used a vacuum system

 

So basically PP loco's only worked with their own companies stock

 

I dont know what PP gear was fitted to 'Standard' loco's but I think it was the LMS Vacuum system.

 

 

 

That's where it gets complicated.

 

I believe the LNER used two different systems. Air on the GER and NER, and the same vacuum system as the LMS.

 

The G5s got the vacuum system as they didn't receive it until the late 1930s when most of the old Push Pull coaches had gone.

 

During the late 1920s and early 1930s, many of the G5s were replaced with steam railcars. In turn, the displaced G5s replaced withdrawn F8s and G6s. In further attempts to economise on branch-line routes, twenty-one G5s were converted for vacuum-operated push-pull working from 1937.

 

https://www.lner.info/locos/G/g5.php

 

You are really looking at Gresley suburban stock such as this rather than the NER Clerestory type. You can possibly alter the Hornby version. I'm pretty sure they do a 4 Compartment Brake Third.

https://www.phoenix-paints.co.uk/products/4mm-products/coach-kits/lner-coaches/51-1-non-vestibuled-coaches/8835-gresley-4-compt-driving

 

 

 

Jason

[Flying Pig]

37 minutes ago, john new said:

Thank you for the responses. The push pull set I have is, I believe, based on an Ex-LMS (probably LNWR) set so as I expected inappropriate.

 

 

As I understand what @Steamport Southport says above, it sounds like a push-pull G5 would be compatible with an LMS set, both having the vacuum system. 

 

BTW here is a thread discussing push-pull conversions in preservation:

 

 

 

[30368]

The G5 Push Pull equipment was vacuum operated as SS has stated above.

 

Some G5's did have a Westinghouse air pump - as many ex NER locomotives did but as far as I can make out, the Push-Pull loco's were all vacuum fitted.

 

Westinghouse fitted G5. Image from my late railway collegue Ray Goad's collection.

 

Push - Pull fitted G5.

 

Another view of a Push-Pull fitted G5 - you can see where the air pump was removed from the side tank. By the way, the two "spotlights" above the lamp brackets are the coach lighting "trip and set" which connects to the coach end.

 

 

Hope this helps.

 

Kind regards,

 

Richard B

Edited July 21, 2023 by 30368

[4firstimes]

The interest in the push pull operations of the G5 Locomotives, and the types of push pull apparatus fitted to allow this mode of operation, I am interested in in numbers 2093 , 1882 , as these two locomotives were fitted compressed air gear to operate the push pull mechanism in January and February 1939. I believe 1780 was subsequently converted after May 1944. On nationalisation these locomotives would become 67269, 67279, and 67322 , I am looking for details of the compressed air gear attached for converting model to one of these variants. 

[Nearholmer]

Re-written for clarity:

 

I suspect that the locos allocated to the ex-GE, initially Stratford for branches in the London area, then Cambridge for the Saffron Walden branch, were fitted with GE-style air operated PP gear. Certainly the stock used with them on the Saffron Walden branch was ex-GE, two car sets made from mismatching old coaches, good photos of which are on ‘disused stations’ under Saffron Walden.

 

From what I can work out, the locos received PP gear previously fitted to ex-GE 2-4-2T, so air gear that was a copy of the LBSCR design, and that the PP set(s) from the Palace Gates branch moved to the country with the locos and was used with them on the Saffron Walden branch.

 

However, my knowledge is very limited, and one needs to consult books (Bradley?).

 

To add confusion, I owned for a short period a coarse-0 model of 1882, and that had a representation of MR-style vacuum PP gear fitted to the smoke box, so maybe 1882 was fitted with both systems at different stages! [No, I think it was only ever fitted with the GE air system, and that the model was incorrect.]

 

 

 

Edited July 21, 2023 by Nearholmer

[30368]

1 hour ago, 4firstimes said:

these locomotives would become 67269, 67279, and 67322 , I am looking for details of the compressed air gear attached for converting model to one of these variants. 

 

I will do some more research but here is a starter for 10.

 

Kind regards,

 

Richard B

 

[D5158]

Records indicate twenty one LNER G5’s were fitted with P/P gear between 1937 and 1951.  Three of which, 2093, 1882 and 1780 were operated by compressed air.  These loco’s worked in the Southern area of the LNER.
 

The eighteen loco’s allocated to the North Eastern area had vacuum operated P/P gear.  When so fitted, as far as is known, the  Westinghouse brake was replaced by a steam brake for the engine.  Vacuum ejector was used for the train brake, thus the Westinghouse pump was removed.

 

1837, 1839, 1778, 1737, 405, 1740, 1883, 1884, 1886, 1888, 1919, 1755, 2082, 2094, 1695, 149, 380 and 387 were allocated to the North East area.

 

Reference: Part. 7 of Locomotives of the L.N.E.R. By RCTS 1964.

 

As always, dated photographs are imperative if you wish to have an accurate mode.

[rowanj]

I am interested in putting together a push-pull set as seen on Blyth to Monkseaton trains in the 1950's, and have a couple of decent photos, showing different diagrams of the driving trailer. Can anyone identify them, please. Also please note the photos are copyrighted.