WCRC - the ongoing battle with ORR.

[melmoth]

On 29/07/2023 at 16:42, SZ said:

 

 

Plenty of scope to retard the outgoing services but the unit swap in the afternoon (arrowed) restricts the timings of the return services by holding them to a crossing at Arisaig.

 

Apropos of nothing in particular, but someone on this site (or possibly Nat Pres) has a tag line to their signature which roughly says 'For every complex problem, there is a simple solution - which is wrong'

[TheSignalEngineer]

1 hour ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

Like its morning counterpart it passes the Down Alcan and last Down Scotrail south of Fort William. A delay to the last Up from Mallaig can have a knock on effect right through to the morning peak at Euston

And I forgot to mention that it has to join up with the Inverness and Aberdeen portions at Waverley (in the correct order) before departing to Euston

[TheSignalEngineer]

Wandering back to the original topic (although I think that may be contrary to the spirit of RMweb) on 25th July WCRC ran a train 5Z37 scheduled to depart at 0833 from Tom Na Faire depot at Fort William to Steamtown Carnforth.

[TheSignalEngineer]

1 hour ago, The Stationmaster said:

However what the graph needs to show is the time allowed for the run round move as it occupies the RETB token section preventing a following train from leaving Arisaig.

The shunts at Mallaig are shown it Realtime Trains. 

 

Jacobite 2Y61 arrive 1230, Shunt 5Y62 1240 - 1306

Scotrail 1Y41 depart Arisaig 1319, Arrive Mallaig 1338, forms 1605 departure.

Jacobiote 2Y62 Departs Mallaig 1410 , arrives Arisaig at 1436

Jacobite 2Y68 arrives Arisaig at 1437, departs at 1443

Jacobite 2Y68 arrives Mallaig at 1506, shunt 5Y68 1530-1556

Scotrail 1Y48 departs 1605. Departs Arisaig 1621

Jacobite 2Y69 departs 1700 arrives Arisaig 1726, depart 1729

Scotrail 1Y43 arrives Arisaig at 1727, departs at 1728

Scotrail 1Y43 arrives Mallaig at 1743, departs as 1Y58 at 1815. Connects with Up sleeper at Fort William.

 

[TheSignalEngineer]

An Interesting quirk in the RETB is that the single line section between Fort William Junction and Glenfinnan is split with a Token Exchange Point at Loch Eil Outward Bound station. This allows trains to access the yard at Fort William Junction or run down to Corpach Pulp Mill at Annat Pulp Mill GF. with a train in section between Loch Eil OB and Glenfinnan thus cutting a 30 minute occupancy for a Sprinter roughly into two equal halves. 

[5944]

10 hours ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

Wandering back to the original topic (although I think that may be contrary to the spirit of RMweb) on 25th July WCRC ran a train 5Z37 scheduled to depart at 0833 from Tom Na Faire depot at Fort William to Steamtown Carnforth.

That was 45212 and support coach, they worked the Northern Belle on Saturday. Well, as far as Hellifield, where the Black 5 was failed with a hot tender axlebox.

 

There's a real dearth of air braked locos available to WCRC at present, and as the 5s are sitting around at Fort William doing nothing, they used one down south. 34067 is the usual Northern Belle loco but that's out of action. 6201 won't see the light of day unless the owning group are willing to accept help. 6233 is out of action for most of this year, as is 35028. 60103 unavailable. Everything else air braked is part of the Locomotive Services group.

[Nick C]

14 hours ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

Wandering back to the original topic (although I think that may be contrary to the spirit of RMweb) on 25th July WCRC ran a train 5Z37 scheduled to depart at 0833 from Tom Na Faire depot at Fort William to Steamtown Carnforth.

The Prohibition notice was explicitly the Jacobite, so presumably they're still allowed to run their other operations (plus ECS/LE moves wouldn't be affected by CDL issues anyway...)

[Stevebr]

15 hours ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

The shunts at Mallaig are shown it Realtime Trains. 

 

Jacobite 2Y61 arrive 1230, Shunt 5Y62 1240 - 1306

Scotrail 1Y41 depart Arisaig 1319, Arrive Mallaig 1338, forms 1605 departure.

Jacobiote 2Y62 Departs Mallaig 1410 , arrives Arisaig at 1436

Jacobite 2Y68 arrives Arisaig at 1437, departs at 1443

Jacobite 2Y68 arrives Mallaig at 1506, shunt 5Y68 1530-1556

Scotrail 1Y48 departs 1605. Departs Arisaig 1621

Jacobite 2Y69 departs 1700 arrives Arisaig 1726, depart 1729

Scotrail 1Y43 arrives Arisaig at 1727, departs at 1728

Scotrail 1Y43 arrives Mallaig at 1743, departs as 1Y58 at 1815. Connects with Up sleeper at Fort William.

 

 

I've updated the chart to show shunting times at Mallaig as above. Also a simulation with a Black 5 + 7 shows a loss of time of around 20 minutes if the maximum speed is limited to 25mph. Also if a speed of 25mph (all lower limits remaining unchanged) was agreed there might be more pressure to keep below that speed than the current limits of 40/30mph. This definitely could not be reliably accommodated.

[eldomtom2]

4 hours ago, Nick C said:

The Prohibition notice was explicitly the Jacobite, so presumably they're still allowed to run their other operations (plus ECS/LE moves wouldn't be affected by CDL issues anyway...)

Do the non-Jacobite operations use different stock that has central door locking?

[DavidBird]

On 30/07/2023 at 19:49, The Stationmaster said:

There's an important thing missing from that graph.  The steam train arrives at Platform 1 at Mallaig and then has to run round following which the stock is apparently sometimes shunted to Platform 2.   However the plan this year seems to have been to keep the steam train on Platform 1 and run other trains to Platform 2 presumably to minimise delay if the steam train arrives late.  

...

 

The position for the previous 30 years (or so) of steam train operation on the Mallaig line was to arrive in P1, run round and then shunt over to P2.
Last year (or maybe evn the year before!) the ground frame and signalling were altered to make P2 the main line.  Now the Jacobite arrives, pauses for the fireman to change the points, arrives in P1, runs round and then stays and departs from P1.  Every other train (Scotrail, Royal Scotsman, LSL Blue Pullman, SRPS, NR survey trains, etc) arrive and depart P2.  The Jacobite is the only train that requires to run round at Mallaig, everything else is either MU or TnT.  This work was apparently carried out at the request of WCR, and presumably at their cost.  Does the exemption of "delay minutes" compensation for charter trains also apply to the Jacobite?

[Mike_Walker]

16 hours ago, eldomtom2 said:

Do the non-Jacobite operations use different stock that has central door locking?

AIUI the other WCRC operations that operate under this exemption are charter trains where the tour promotor (i.e. RTC, Pathfinder, etc.) have the responsibility for providing the stewards and ensuring the doors/droplights/vestibules are adequately policed to prevent misuse with WCRC just providing the guard.  The Jacobite is an entirely WCRC operation and therefore responsibility for stewarding falls on them.  Whereas the others are, it appears, complying fully with the requirements of the exemption certificate, WCRC are not; hence the prohibition notice applies only to the Jacobite and not charter trains operated by WCRC on behalf of third parties.

 

Some charter stock, mostly those formed of Mk2 and Mk3 vehicles, do have CDL and I think the entire LSL fleet has been fitted.  Vintage Trains operate their Mk1s under the same exemption as WCRC but steward the doors correctly.  However, time is running out.  The ORR has said it will not extend further the current exemption certificates when they expire.  Even Belmond are having to fit the British Pullman stock with CDL.

 

As might have been said already, fitting CDL to vacuum-braked stock is difficult as it requires and air supply and is linked to the train braking system (If the doors are not properly locked the brakes cannot be released).  There is an alternative electro-magnetic system but this requires a reliable electrical supply which cannot always be relied upon on, say, a Mk1.  It has been used on the "bubble cars" previously operated by Chiltern and ATW and now the Swanage Railway but on them you do have a reliable electrical supply courtesy of the engine driven alternator.

[31A]

8 minutes ago, Mike_Walker said:

AIUI the other WCRC operations that operate under this exemption are charter trains where the tour promotor (i.e. RTC, Pathfinder, etc.) have the responsibility for providing the stewards and ensuring the doors/droplights/vestibules are adequately policed to prevent misuse with WCRC just providing the guard.  The Jacobite is an entirely WCRC operation and therefore responsibility for stewarding falls on them.  Whereas the others are, it appears, complying fully with the requirements of the exemption certificate, WCRC are not; hence the prohibition notice applies only to the Jacobite and not charter trains operated by WCRC on behalf of third parties.

 

 

I believe WCRC also run the "Dalesman" and "Scarborough Spa Express" trains under their own auspices.

 

https://westcoastrailways.co.uk/scarborough-spa-express/steam-experience

[5944]

30 minutes ago, 31A said:

 

I believe WCRC also run the "Dalesman" and "Scarborough Spa Express" trains under their own auspices.

 

https://westcoastrailways.co.uk/scarborough-spa-express/steam-experience

They do, and they have enough volunteer stewards to man the doors. They don't on the Jacobite, as the only staff are the guard and a handful of catering staff (unless things have changed since I last went up there).

[DavidBird]

On 01/08/2023 at 10:17, 5944 said:

They do, and they have enough volunteer stewards to man the doors. They don't on the Jacobite, as the only staff are the guard and a handful of catering staff (unless things have changed since I last went up there).

 

When were you last up here?  The number of stewards is obviously higher this year than previously, and there appears (I've not counted them) to be one per vestibule.

[Jonboy]

What surprises me on Mike Walker’s comments above about the electrical alternative is that on commercial buildings magnetic door locking systems are normally a 12v Power Over Ethernet (I.e. over computer networking cable) affair and not particularly hungry in terms of ampage.
Surely a robust power supply up front and heavy duty connectors between carriage’s would be all that is required, or would it need a full certification program of some type?

[Mike_Walker]

Anything that is not current practice would need to go through the full certification process.  The pully driven dynamos used to provide electricity and battery charging on Mk1s are notoriously unreliable particularly at low speeds - ever been on a railtour or heritage line where the lights don't work?  The CDL also has to be linked into the braking system so that if the doors are not correctly locked the brakes can't be released so it's all a bit more involved than building door locks.

[Stevebr]

7 hours ago, Mike_Walker said:

Anything that is not current practice would need to go through the full certification process.  The pully driven dynamos used to provide electricity and battery charging on Mk1s are notoriously unreliable particularly at low speeds - ever been on a railtour or heritage line where the lights don't work?  The CDL also has to be linked into the braking system so that if the doors are not correctly locked the brakes can't be released so it's all a bit more involved than building door locks.

Could the pulleys not be changed to give full charging at a lower speed. Also I suspect many problems with lighting come from poorly maintained batteries and Earth faults

[31A]

Well one WCRC train was running today and running well to regain about 70 minutes between Carnforth and York, despite being pulled by a Jubilee with a split personality!

 

[The Stationmaster]

33 minutes ago, Stevebr said:

Could the pulleys not be changed to give full charging at a lower speed. Also I suspect many problems with lighting come from poorly maintained batteries and Earth faults

Mk1 coach batteries have been a problem for many years.  Back in the 1980s even with quite a decent length of run bit only four trips per day it wasn't unusual for our commuter sets to require battery charging just to keep them topped-up.  And they were running at speeds up to 90mph.

Edited August 3, 2023 by The Stationmaster

[Reorte]

I'm usually one for keeping things as they were but I wouldn't have an issue with replacing the batteries in Mk1s with some more modern batteries. Whether it would be worth the expense (not in the least because I imagine you'd also have to replace just about everything else in the system at the same time) is of course another matter.

[Stevebr]

The GWSR has published some great data on Mk1 electrics with some well thought through updates. 
 

 

 

https://gwsrcarriageandwagon.blogspot.com/2021/03/electrics-on-mk1-carriages-for-gwsr.html

[6990WitherslackHall]

 

On 03/08/2023 at 17:16, 31A said:

Well one WCRC train was running today and running well to regain about 70 minutes between Carnforth and York, despite being pulled by a Jubilee with a split personality!

 

I wonder which loco will haul the tour on 31st August?

[Michael Hodgson]

8 hours ago, Reorte said:

I'm usually one for keeping things as they were but I wouldn't have an issue with replacing the batteries in Mk1s with some more modern batteries. Whether it would be worth the expense (not in the least because I imagine you'd also have to replace just about everything else in the system at the same time) is of course another matter.

Dynamos in cars were superseded by alternators years ago as they were said to do a better job of keeping the battery charged. 

Wouldn't the same be worth doing on Mk 1 stock?

[31A]

3 minutes ago, 6990WitherslackHall said:

 

I wonder which loco will haul the tour on 31st August?

 

Who knows??  I was expecting to see Scots Guardsman yesterday!

 

[Jeremy Cumberland]

I wasn't aware dynamos (or alternators) were still used on any coaching stock; surely these days everything is charged by plugging it in overnight (unless, of course, it takes power from the locomotive or a generator set).