WCRC - the ongoing battle with ORR.

[adb968008]

16 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

For a while or for a glass of wine I wonder (bubbly wine of course)?

Tbh this would be the kind of thing I could easily sell my misses on.

Queen of Scots set would be the one i’d point to as well, quite a unique rake but quite gentle use for it.. short low speed round trip during summer evenings.

 

Edited July 29, 2023 by adb968008

[Jeremy Cumberland]

30 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

Looks like theres time for a dining train in there circa 6pm?

 

need it even go all the way, or just pause on the viaduct for a while ?

Rather late dining. There isn't a path from Fort William to Mallaig till the up service train gets in at 19:37.

 

There is a theoretical path at 17:28 from Fort William, but it has two problems:

1. It would never be offered to WRC because if 16:05 service train from Mallaig ran late, then the 17:28 from Fort William would also run late. This in turn would delay the late up Jacobite at Glenfinnan (which leaves Arisaig at 17:28, and the running times from Arisaig to Glenfinnan and Fort William to Glenfinnan are pretty near identical), which would then risk delaying the 18:15 service train from Mallaig, which already has a rather tight cushion of 12 minutes between the Jacobite arriving at Fort William and the service train requiring the section at Glenfinnan.
2. The train would need to wait for nearly an hour at Glenfinnan. The up Jacobite gets there at about 18:10, but there isn't then time to get to Arisaig to cross the 18:15 from Mallaig at 18:31. Consequently, the train would need to cross both the up Jacobite and the up service train at Glenfinnan, and wouln't get a path till 19:04.

Timetable planning on single line railways is something of an art form. I used to have a copy of Single Line Railways: A Handbook of Management, Engineering, and Operation by OS Nock (I wonder what happened to it - I haven't seen it in my last couple of moves), in which he devoted quite a lot of words to pathing. The planners of the West Highland line have done a superb job, with cushions on either side of the Jacobites, meaning that a late running service train is unlikely to delay a Jacobite (unless they are crossing, which only happens twice a day), and a late running Jacobite is unlikely to delay a service train.

[adb968008]

30 minutes ago, Jeremy Cumberland said:

Rather late dining. There isn't a path from Fort William to Mallaig till the up service train gets in at 19:37.

 

There is a theoretical path at 17:28 from Fort William, but it has two problems:

1. It would never be offered to WRC because if 16:05 service train from Mallaig ran late, then the 17:28 from Fort William would also run late. This in turn would delay the late up Jacobite at Glenfinnan (which leaves Arisaig at 17:28, and the running times from Arisaig to Glenfinnan and Fort William to Glenfinnan are pretty near identical), which would then risk delaying the 18:15 service train from Mallaig, which already has a rather tight cushion of 12 minutes between the Jacobite arriving at Fort William and the service train requiring the section at Glenfinnan.
2. The train would need to wait for nearly an hour at Glenfinnan. The up Jacobite gets there at about 18:10, but there isn't then time to get to Arisaig to cross the 18:15 from Mallaig at 18:31. Consequently, the train would need to cross both the up Jacobite and the up service train at Glenfinnan, and wouln't get a path till 19:04.

Timetable planning on single line railways is something of an art form. I used to have a copy of Single Line Railways: A Handbook of Management, Engineering, and Operation by OS Nock (I wonder what happened to it - I haven't seen it in my last couple of moves), in which he devoted quite a lot of words to pathing. The planners of the West Highland line have done a superb job, with cushions on either side of the Jacobites, meaning that a late running service train is unlikely to delay a Jacobite (unless they are crossing, which only happens twice a day), and a late running Jacobite is unlikely to delay a service train.

Thanks for the insight, though my thought is it doesnt need to go all the way.

Glenfinnan maybe far enough, its a dining train, and an hours wait maybe fine… its serving a meal afterall.

I wasnt thinking of this as a usual mainline railtour, more of a restaurant dinner, that happens to move.

indeed the photo opp of passing a return working maybe something in itself.

A pause on Glenfinannan may appeal.

 

would timings like that work ?

Edited July 29, 2023 by adb968008

[Ian Hargrave]

9 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

Thanks for the insight, though my thought is it doesnt need to go all the way.

Glenfinnan maybe far enough, its a dining train, and an hours wait maybe fine… its serving a meal afterall.

I wasnt thinking of this as a usual mainline railtour, more of a restaurant dinner, that happens to move.

Cuisine Concrete Bob a la son & lumiere ?

 

[adb968008]

14 minutes ago, Ian Hargrave said:

Cuisine Concrete Bob a la son & lumiere ?

 

A fish and chip special wasnt what I was thinking of.

i’m obviously going to dinner with different folks to some others here.

if I take a client to dinner its not usually in a burger box, and its not usually over by 6pm.

Queen of scots I wouldnt consider a kebab night out either.

 

obviously i’m sniffing the wrong rabbit hole with this one.

The no’s have it, i’ll let it go.

Edited July 29, 2023 by adb968008

[Jeremy Cumberland]

It's too tight for the allowances given to the Jacobite, but something guaranteed to run faster might be allowed from Fort William to Glenfinnan (probably no time to pause on the viaduct, though). It's then stuck there. There isn't a path onwards to Arisaig and there isn't a path back to Fort William either. Incidentally, I've checked the signalling of the West Highland line and there is a Token Exchange Point at Loch Eil Outward Bound, which gives the late up Jacobite quite a bit more leeway before it risks delaying the following service train, but there's no time to slip in another train between the two.

 

If your dining train is topped and tailed it could perhaps go back out onto the viaduct at 18:30 or so when the up Jacobite's cleared Loch Eil Outward Bound but it would need to be back in Glenfinnan at 19:04 for the up service train. It sounds rather a faff to me.

[Ray H]

What about the extra staff costs for anything outside the current timetable?

 

I'm specifically thinking of the loco crew(s). Stretching the run time stretches the crew time, means (possibly) extra cost especially if any retardation takes the engine crew out of their permitted hours per week.

[DavidBird]

On 27/07/2023 at 14:33, Reorte said:

 

You're definitely going to need to see some sort of indicator (I've no idea what it is) to make sure you don't fall off the swing bridge over the Caledonian Canal.

 

Standard 2 aspect (Red-Green) colour light signals, which also protect the level crossing to the east of Banavie station.

 

On 27/07/2023 at 14:41, The Stationmaster said:

Morar crossing is an AOCL+B so has white lights (unless it has been further altered.  Annat East & West level crossings both appear to have full barriers so some other system will presumably be in place there.

...

 

Morar crossing is AOCL(B), still has the white lights, as does Corpach crossing.  Annat East & West crossings were formerly protected by semaphores, controlled from a crossing box. Several years ago now, the box was closed and the signals replaced by 2A LED colour light signals, controlled by Banavie Signalling Centre.

[johnofwessex]

2 hours ago, adb968008 said:

A fish and chip special wasnt what I was thinking of.

i’m obviously going to dinner with different folks to some others here.

if I take a client to dinner its not usually in a burger box, and its not usually over by 6pm.

Queen of scots I wouldnt consider a kebab night out either.

 

obviously i’m sniffing the wrong rabbit hole with this one.

The no’s have it, i’ll let it go.

 

 

Can we all be your client?

[adb968008]

1 hour ago, johnofwessex said:

 

 

Can we all be your client?

depends on your sign off budget 😃

No such thing as a free lunch.

Funny thing is Scotland is the most natural place for IT in the UK, but theirs precious little of it up there.
 

But seriously though the idea I was thinking of isnt an enthusiasts trip, but an alternative for tourists who may be in the area, still have an ounce of romance left in them and may want to indulge in a restaurant that happens to go out for the sunset in a fantastic area of the mountains… 2.5 -3.5 hours or so in the evening is enough for most… Glenfinnan covers the loch and the viaduct, which is the greater part of the attraction. A bit of leg stretch time between courses, a whisky in the dark on the way back, and be back at the hotel before last orders.

 

Were not talking Royal Scotsman or VSOE, but definitely a few rungs above a RAT or a fish and chip special. 

Look back in to your pasts.. the days before trains became the substitute for an early night. Very soon the generation that grew up with Muggles will be starting to settle down and have their own.

 

Theres a lot of tourists there in the summer, not all of them have a day to spend on the train to Mallaig, but they still sleep local and the options at night are a little more limited and the time more flexible.

 

Edited July 29, 2023 by adb968008

[The Stationmaster]

Having done more than enpugh train planning experience over single line railways (and far more complex things than those) in my time, including devising and 'testing' major singling proposals in the Serpell era, the current WHE timetable is fairly robust.   Although I haven't seen the Planning Rules  it is clear from the current WTT that they incorprate margins  intended to achoeve that robustness.

 

Any messing about with teh steam worked paths such as reducing the maximum speed to 25 mph is not only courting  a potentially very unreliable timetable but from looking at just one path it will not work without a major recast of the timetable.  And as that timetable extends from/to Glasgow that just isn't going to happen.

[TomJ]

I love the fact that whilst the current operator can’t even run their existing service we’re discussing here how they could run more…..

[adb968008]

34 minutes ago, TomJ said:

I love the fact that whilst the current operator can’t even run their existing service we’re discussing here how they could run more…..

Someone, I didnt say WCRC.

 

ive never mentioned speed either, so i’m not sure why thats being lumped on me, or where people have a 25mph obsession from ?.. ive travelled faster than that on the WHL.

 

if WCRC end WHL steam I cant see it being abandoned, its too popular, and political.

 

That said for all the hype and claims, regular borders line steam came to nought, as has several times suggested steam on the kyle line.

I think the heritage mainline industry is becoming too weak for such expansions now, I keep saying enjoy it whilst you can…

WHL may someday be the last place for such jollies, with or without wcrc, but equally if the DFT found itself too cash strapped, selling it private may not be the worst thing for the line.

My concern for wcrc though is lack of investment beyond make do and mend, the owners arent getting younger are they just eeking it out for what they can get ?

 

Yesterdays Deltic railtour was a real sorry mess of coaches, a bright red mk2 bso , anglia blue aircon, wcrc mk1 pullmans, a few wcrc TSOs and a few brown cream mk1’s.

Edited July 30, 2023 by adb968008
tS

[Michael Hodgson]

On 26/07/2023 at 10:49, Reorte said:

To take an absolutely absurd extreme example no mitigation factors would be justified at all, no matter how easy, to deal with a risk where the outcome is a minor bruise and the odds of it happening are once in a billion years (if the odds of it happening to everyone were such that it was more likely than not every single hour then even that minor outcome should be mitigated against).

 

I bruise very easily because I'm on warfarin.  I regularly found my thighs were slightly bruised and couldn't work out why.  I later realised that it was a consequence of being processed like a package on a conveyer belt by the Underground's ticket barriers!   .... never used to happen in the good old days when they had ticket inspectors on the gates.

[Michael Hodgson]

12 hours ago, adb968008 said:

Theres a lot of tourists there in the summer, not all of them have a day to spend on the train to Mallaig, but they still sleep local and the options at night are a little more limited and the time more flexible.

 

 

Free midge repellent with every booking? 

[Legend]

28 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

 

Free midge repellent with every booking? 

Too cold and windy for the dreaded Midge this year . We had our summer three weeks in June this year . Fortunately the Jacobite was still running then 

[locoholic]

Surely the solution to this sorry situation is for the Scottish Government to nationalise the WCRC West Highland operation?

 

A brand new fleet of "heritage effect" carriages with seat-belts on every seat to prevent the intellectually-challenged passengers hurling themselves off Glenfinnan Viaduct, and solar panels on the roof, pulled by an eco-friendly battery powered steam locomotive (a replica of the tartan-liveried North British engine which honoured Queen Victoria) - all delivered on time and on budget. 

[AY Mod]

4 minutes ago, locoholic said:

all delivered on time and on budget. 

 

Now you're just being ridiculous.

[RANGERS]

21 minutes ago, locoholic said:

Surely the solution to this sorry situation is for the Scottish Government to nationalise the WCRC West Highland operation?

 

A brand new fleet of "heritage effect" carriages with seat-belts on every seat to prevent the intellectually-challenged passengers hurling themselves off Glenfinnan Viaduct, and solar panels on the roof, pulled by an eco-friendly battery powered steam locomotive (a replica of the tartan-liveried North British engine which honoured Queen Victoria) - all delivered on time and on budget. 

You’ve been reading too many Transport Scotland media releases…

Edited July 30, 2023 by RANGERS

[Stevebr]

The Stationmaster is right.  Looking at the chart attached there is little scope to run the Jacobite trains slower without impacting the existing timetable which isn't going to happen.  As a footnote if WCRC aren't interested in a compliant operation maybe others will be.

[chris p bacon]

5 hours ago, locoholic said:

Surely the solution to this sorry situation is for the Scottish Government to nationalise the WCRC West Highland operation?

Lorna Slater would be the ideal minister to take charge of it.... That's if you never want to see it again.. 

[The Stationmaster]

One thing which doesn't seem to have got much attention is why WCRC were doing the job on the cheap (I say 'cheap' from the assumption that the safety stewards would presumably receive some sort of payment).  Or was it simply down to WCRC living up to past form?

 

So - assuming they were trying to do the job as it should be done -  had they been relying on volunteers for support,  or was it simply a question of saving costs, or was it a matter of being unable to offer competitive pay rates during the tourist season when other seasonal work was on offer?   The answer to these question might well decide if it is, or isn't, viable for anyone else to takeover the operation unless the stock used can be fitted with CDL.  But if CDL fitted stock is used that might in turn impose an extra cost which has to be recovered through the fare box.

 

If, as has been suggested in this thread - the 'Jacobite' plays an important part in attracting visitor revenue to the area does this in turn mean that it should receive some sort of Govt etc support in order that it can be staffed as it should be?  It strikes me that there could be some important questions to be addressed beyond the obvious one of it not being run in a manner compliant with agreed safety procedures.

[adb968008]

6 hours ago, locoholic said:

Surely the solution to this sorry situation is for the Scottish Government to nationalise the WCRC West Highland operation?

 

A brand new fleet of "heritage effect" carriages with seat-belts on every seat to prevent the intellectually-challenged passengers hurling themselves off Glenfinnan Viaduct, and solar panels on the roof, pulled by an eco-friendly battery powered steam locomotive (a replica of the tartan-liveried North British engine which honoured Queen Victoria) - all delivered on time and on budget. 

isnt that a class 230 ?

[TheSignalEngineer]

18 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

Having done more than enpugh train planning experience over single line railways (and far more complex things than those) in my time, including devising and 'testing' major singling proposals in the Serpell era, the current WHE timetable is fairly robust.   Although I haven't seen the Planning Rules  it is clear from the current WTT that they incorprate margins  intended to achoeve that robustness.

From projects I worked on involving single lines, for a robust timetable we tried to work on a line occupancy of no more than 66%. On one project the client requested train service on a layout where if you applied the signalling rules correctly pushed it up to 85%. It was an absolute disaster to the extent that they subsequently paid for the passing loop we recommended at the initial planning stage.

 

18 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

Any messing about with teh steam worked paths such as reducing the maximum speed to 25 mph is not only courting  a potentially very unreliable timetable but from looking at just one path it will not work without a major recast of the timetable.  And as that timetable extends from/to Glasgow that just isn't going to happen.

Not forgetting that a lot of the trains are combined with the Oban service between Glasgow and Crianlarich.

 

5 hours ago, Stevebr said:

The Stationmaster is right.  Looking at the chart attached there is little scope to run the Jacobite trains slower without impacting the existing timetable which isn't going to happen.  As a footnote if WCRC aren't interested in a compliant operation maybe others will be.

Thanks for the graph. I got the crayons out last night and had a doodle with doing one back to Glasgow. Gets very interesting. The morning Jacobite run looks as if it is designed to feed off the Down sleeper, which itself has been crossed by the first Up Scotrail and the North Blyth Alcan between Crianlarich and Fort William. The last Up Scotrail train from Mallaig connects directly with the Up sleeper at Fort William. Like its morning counterpart it passes the Down Alcan and last Down Scotrail south of Fort William. A delay to the last Up from Mallaig can have a knock on effect right through to the morning peak at Euston

Pathing really gets interesting when you start to throw in getting through places like Dumbarton where you have a train every 6-8 minutes on other services to pick a gap between.

[The Stationmaster]

7 hours ago, Stevebr said:

The Stationmaster is right.  Looking at the chart attached there is little scope to run the Jacobite trains slower without impacting the existing timetable which isn't going to happen.  As a footnote if WCRC aren't interested in a compliant operation maybe others will be.

There's an important thing missing from that graph.  The steam train arrives at Platform 1 at Mallaig and then has to run round following which the stock is apparently sometimes shunted to Platform 2.   However the plan this year seems to have been to keep the steam train on Platform 1 and run other trains to Platform 2 presumably to minimise delay if the steam train arrives late.  

 

However what the graph needs to show is the time allowed for the run round move as it occupies the RETB token section preventing a following train from leaving Arisaig.

 

BTWit all starts to fall apart right from the beginning when you drop the speed of the steam workings to a maxim of 25mph.

Edited July 30, 2023 by The Stationmaster