How a hidden Fiddle Yard would work?

[Windjabbers]

I am working on a design for a new layout. 
 

One of the options would be for the fiddle Yard to be completely hidden from the operators view.

 

So I would need to have some way of knowing which train was in which fiddle yard siding and which route was set.

 

Would be interested to hear how others have solved this problem and what they have found worked well. 
 

Thanks 

 

David 

[Chimer]

No answers, but more questions ......

• Obviously if you can't see the yard, you aren't going to be doing any "fiddling" in the sense of exchanging/turning locos and brake vans by hand .... correct?
• So, are you just going to be using multiple units, push-pulls or other stuff that can happily just shuttle backwards and forwards (which would make things a lot simpler)? 
• If not, you either need a return loop or (mind boggles) the ability to uncouple arriving locos and either run round or attach a different loco for the return to the real world - which?

Given those answers, I'm sure people who understand electronics better than me will be able to devise something involve detecting where things are and stopping them in the right places!

[Schooner]

DC: mirror/camera and screen to see and/or counters representing particular trains to be placed on a mimic panel for occupancy. If it's good enough a system for aircraft carriers it's probs alright for toy trains :)

 

DCC: block detection. Simples!

[RobinofLoxley]

OK youre only talking about an option, but if you were considering it without knowing how to operate it, I would go for something simpler.

49 minutes ago, Schooner said:

DCC: block detection. Simples!

Haha. Plus automatic uncoupling (blind) etc etc

[ITG]

Hi,

on my now defunct layout, I used lorry reversing cameras, purchased from eBay complete with small screen. They came with integral LEDs to illuminate the area. The area was for storage roads, not for fiddling. Hence no need for uncoupling.

plus points - small, easy to fit, run off 12vdc, easy to mount both camera and screen, cheap

minus points - back to front screen display (as it’s a reversing camera), small screen

 

Would I use them again? Yes, if in similar circumstances.

But, my new layout will use current sensors, using iTrain computerised control.

Ian

[bandmbill]

34 minutes ago, ITG said:

Hi,

on my now defunct layout, I used lorry reversing cameras, purchased from eBay complete with small screen. They came with integral LEDs to illuminate the area. The area was for storage roads, not for fiddling. Hence no need for uncoupling.

plus points - small, easy to fit, run off 12vdc, easy to mount both camera and screen, cheap

minus points - back to front screen display (as it’s a reversing camera), small screen

 

Would I use them again? Yes, if in similar circumstances.

But, my new layout will use current sensors, using iTrain computerised control.

Ian

Lorry cameras are good - kits usually have one camera and one display but the displays can work with two or more cameras - automatically switch to work in low light/darkness with IR light source built into the cameras.

[DCB]

It rather depends on whether you need to know which train is where in the yard or which locomotive is on which train.     The train part is easy enough Reversing Camera or old web cam and an old laptop or Desktop / Monitor. Or  Block detection.

Things get tricky with DCC when you need to know which loco is on which train,  generally DCC yards are not hidden for that reason, and only part of the layout is scenic. You can get round it with meticulous record keeping but it's supposed to be a hobby.
I can't see which road my hidden yard has set, but I can see which roads are occupied so I set the road each time to be sure.  I have Diode matrix route setting with electric pencil on one yard and 6 position switch on the other.  I really don't like part scenic layouts I always aim for the storage to be hidden to preserve the illusion that trains actually go somewhere.

The other problem few modellers get on top of is getting trains up to line speed in a couple of feet so the burst from storage like they have flat out for the last 5 miles and even more fun stop from line speed in a couple of feet after leaving the scene at full speed.

 

 

[Chris M]

I have the same problem. I thought about using a camera, but being a cheapskate, I ended up just putting a couple of mirrors on the wall behind the layout. One flat one and one of those that gives a wide view. This works very well for me. As I use DC the loco in the road I select is automatically live when I set the points for that road. I use a diode matrix for the points so all I have to do is press one button and all the points change correctly for the selected road. I don't have anything to check that I have the right road because just pressing the one button works perfectly every time.

 

[AndyB]

Another vote for reversing camera and screen. Plenty on sale at Amazon. 

Arguably simpler than block detection. And show you precisely what is happening.

That's certainly the solution I'll be using on Bentley St. Mary. 

[Windjabbers]

Thanks for all your comments and suggestions. I number of things I had not really thought about. The desgin will have to change give some really good points made.

 

I'm quite keen to keep this as low tech as possible, so think i will start to look at the mirror and the reversing camera first before I think about more costly DCC options!

 

All very helpful

 

Best Wishes

 

David

[Chris M]

At £22 on Temu a reversing camera is probably cheaper than a mirror!  Who would have thought it.  Amazon seems more expensive at £39 but you do get two mounting brackets. One of these at each end would do the job very reasonably. If I was about to set things up now I might well go for cameras but as it is I will stick with my mirrors as they work. Also you will have to mount the monitor(s) somehow by the control panel.

[DCB]

A mirror has to be mounted to give a clear field of view from the usual operating position but a monitor can be mounted anywhere, or not fixed at all hand held with a shelf to lay it on when not in use.  A trick I use is a push button for the dead end sidings, the button works a six pole relay  and bridges the isolating rail joiners when pressed, that way only the road for which the points are set goes live when the button is pressed. Loops again power routed by points classic DC style the far end power is switched off so the trains stop beyond the isolators,  Or stop if the far end points are set wrong, this is not great as the loco is shorted by the live frog points, it destroys plunger pick ups on Airfix 14XX   Definitely not recommended for DCC. With my locos, my son's, father in laws etc we  have 9 Castles 8 Halls 3 counties two Granges  and a 47XX  they all look much the same lurking in the shadows, and they all can be found on Milk, Parcels, Passenger and express freight turns and we might go a fortnight between running sessions so which loco appears from the gloom is a genuine surprise and we look for the name, or number.  Just like 1950s train spotters, which adds another layer of realism

[Chris M]

1 hour ago, DCB said:

A mirror has to be mounted to give a clear field of view from the usual operating position but a monitor can be mounted anywhere, or not fixed at all hand held with a shelf to lay it on when not in use.  A trick I use is a push button for the dead end sidings, the button works a six pole relay  and bridges the isolating rail joiners when pressed, that way only the road for which the points are set goes live when the button is pressed. Loops again power routed by points classic DC style the far end power is switched off so the trains stop beyond the isolators,  Or stop if the far end points are set wrong, this is not great as the loco is shorted by the live frog points, it destroys plunger pick ups on Airfix 14XX   Definitely not recommended for DCC. With my locos, my son's, father in laws etc we  have 9 Castles 8 Halls 3 counties two Granges  and a 47XX  they all look much the same lurking in the shadows, and they all can be found on Milk, Parcels, Passenger and express freight turns and we might go a fortnight between running sessions so which loco appears from the gloom is a genuine surprise and we look for the name, or number.  Just like 1950s train spotters, which adds another layer of realism

I get the same with my mirrors. I can see how the trains are postioned at the far end but I can't see for sure what loco is on the front. Its nice to get a surprise!

[Dungrange]

14 hours ago, DCB said:

Things get tricky with DCC when you need to know which loco is on which train,  generally DCC yards are not hidden for that reason, and only part of the layout is scenic. You can get round it with meticulous record keeping but it's supposed to be a hobby.

Or you could just use a Railcom enabled detector to tell you what is in each block.  It reads the DCC address and relays it to the command station, mimic panel or track diagram.

[Barry Ten]

I've been using such a yard on my N layout for over a decade. I bought a pair of wireless cameras which monitor either end of the six-road yard. These feed a monitor which flicks between the two views every few seconds, which works well in practise. The yard is covered, and I've illuminated either throat with LEDs just to help with visibility.

 

To select the roads, I use a bit of a crude system but it's also proven reliable in practise. Each point in the ladder is worked by a solenoid driven by a momentary contact switch and a CDU. If I went to select (say) road 4, I just start with road 1 and go down flicking the switches in the direction that they would need to be if the road was correctly set - in this case it would be down, down, down, up! If any of the roads are already set, the solenoid obviously doesn't move the point at all, but the action doesn't seem to cause any long-term harm. Of course it could be done a lot more cleverly with diodes or route-selection via accessory decoders. but as I said, it does work fine in practise. 

 

I use a whiteboard to note train numbers (DCC addresses and direction of travel) as one N diesel looks much like another when seen through the camera at a low angle, but in practise one soon gets the hang of what's what.

[DCB]

3 hours ago, Dungrange said:

Or you could just use a Railcom enabled detector to tell you what is in each block.  It reads the DCC address and relays it to the command station, mimic panel or track diagram.

How much is  one of those.  Can it read more than one loco identity in a block as in a double header?

[Dungrange]

8 minutes ago, DCB said:

How much is  one of those?

 

I depends on who's product you want to use.  If we go with Yamorc (http://yamorc.de/products/?categories=130) then a basic current sensing unit is €87.50 for occupancy detecting in 17 sections (the YD6016LN-CS).  The Railcom equivalent (the YD6016LN-RC) will be €129.50, so that equates to about an extra £2 per section to allow the command station to read the address of locos in hidden sections.  It also means that you need to use Railcom enabled decoders, which means the better featured European decoders such as Zimo and ESU.  Basic decodes such as those from Hornby and Lais don't, as far as I'm aware, support Railcom.

 

9 minutes ago, DCB said:

Can it read more than one loco identity in a block as in a double header?

 

If you have two locomotives in the same section, then they will either have to be allocated the same DCC locomotive address, or they will have to be Consisted, so that they operate as one unit.  That means both locomotives are driven simultaneously by entering the consist address rather than calling up each locomotive separately and trying to drive them independently at the same speed at the same time.  I think if you're using Consisting, then Railcom will report the consist address.

[The Johnster]

Make sure you can access it for track cleaning and derailment/breakdown recovery.  If you don’t, I can guarantee that that is where 90% of such incidents will occur.  

[AndyB]

Can I ask those who've used cameras whether this was sufficient to see which way points were set?

Or did you double down with LEDs on the mimic panel? Noting the switch direction is also a visual / haptic cue. 

 

[Michael Hodgson]

On 14/07/2023 at 19:51, DCB said:

How much is  one of those.  Can it read more than one loco identity in a block as in a double header?

 The cost of the detector may well be less of a consideration than the cost of decoders - as others have pointed out the loco decoder must be railcom-compliant.  Some makes are, others aren't (the cheaper ones tend not to support railcom, but expensive doesn't necessarily imply railcom support).  So if you have already fitted a large number of locos changing them could well prove more expensive than the detector.  If you still have to buy decoders, you're going to run into cost of decoders anyway.

[ITG]

16 hours ago, AndyB said:

Can I ask those who've used cameras whether this was sufficient to see which way points were set?

Or did you double down with LEDs on the mimic panel? Noting the switch direction is also a visual / haptic cue. 

 

For me, I also had (for all turnouts on the layout, not just those in the storage yard) a mimic panel with LED indicator lights, so didn’t need to see directions set. My storage yard was 150mm below the upper board - ample space to mount the small camera at an angle to view down the roads (although of course that could depend on how many roads for the width of view of the camera to cover). But I suspect that to see many turnouts, bearing in mind the angles of location versus camera view will by definition all be different,  you would struggle to clearly see many, because the camera wouldn’t be high enough above the tracks to provide the necessary perspective. Unless you had multiple cameras mounted pointing more directly down towards said turnouts.

Ian

[AndyB]

Thanks Ian. 

In my particular circumstance it's a little easier as the FY is simply behind the backscene. So the cameras can be set quite high up and pointing downwards. 

Andy

[ITG]

23 minutes ago, AndyB said:

Thanks Ian. 

In my particular circumstance it's a little easier as the FY is simply behind the backscene. So the cameras can be set quite high up and pointing downwards. 

Andy

That’s good news, but I suspect you may need to find an angle which works, as if mounted too vertically above, you may only be able to see train / loco roof views, which may not be sufficient to identify.

[AMJ]

A simple cheap webcam/GoPro will probably be the easiest solution see

 

[Barry Ten]

19 hours ago, AndyB said:

Can I ask those who've used cameras whether this was sufficient to see which way points were set?

Or did you double down with LEDs on the mimic panel? Noting the switch direction is also a visual / haptic cue. 

 

 

No, I can't see which way the points were set, and I don't have LEDs to tell me either, but as mentioned it doesn't cause any issues as I just select the desired route by flicking each switch in turn. It might add a few seconds to the job at best but it works reliably. The switches are centre-biassed momentary contact ones so they don't offer any visual clue either.