Red Star Parcels - how did it operate in the end?

[18B]

hi, 

 

in the 1980s were Red Star parcels being carried by train still? when would anyone happen to know please did Red Star sop sending parcels by train? 

 

TIA

[bécasse]

Red Star parcels offices at stations, by then owned by Lynx Express, all closed on 25 May 2001 with the staff made redundant. Lynx blamed the closure on the fall out from the Hatfield accident.

[Darius43]

20 minutes ago, 18B said:

hi, 

 

in the 1980s were Red Star parcels being carried by train still? when would anyone happen to know please did Red Star sop sending parcels by train? 

 

TIA

They certainly were.  In 1986 I moved three boxes of my accumulated university stuff from Bristol Temple Meads to Seaford (Sussex) using Red Star.  Worked a treat.   Must get round to unpacking them sometime…

 

Cheers

 

Darius

[flubrush]

The British film industry relied on Red Star to get film negative (rushes) to London for processing.  All the major negative processing laboratories were in London - Ranks, Technicolor, Metrocolor, etc.   When going on location for filming,  one of the first jobs of a camera crew was to establsh the nearest Red Star office.  There was also the return service from London to the various regional centres of the BBC and ITV stations.   All the laboratories had small fleets of vans continually attending all the major terminii in London from early evening till early morning.

 

The beauty of the system was that it worked from all over the UK wherever there was a railway station with Red Star handling - even from Wick or Thurso although packages might take more than a day from there.

 

It actually worked very well and there were only occasional problems.

 

Jim.

[TinTracks]

2 hours ago, 18B said:

in the 1980s were Red Star parcels being carried by train still? when would anyone happen to know please did Red Star sop sending parcels by train? 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Star_Parcels

 Hi .lots of info and dates in the above link.

 Fom personal experience it was a fantastic service for its time. Sometime in the mid 1980s I ran a printed circuit board factory. One of my 3 spindle CNC drilling machines had burnt out a spindle significally reducing its production capacity. A company called VERO based in Southhampton put me a replacement  spindle on a train via Red Star Parcels. Later on the same afternoon one of my lads picked the spindle up from the Darlington office. We had the machine back up running on full capacity by, I think, 6pm the same day. Amazing service for its time.

 Hope this helps, Regards, Rich

[18B]

I guess the question is, when did a parcel last parcel by train that wasn't a dedicated Res service? i.e. a "normal" passenger train? 

[EE 8SVT]

Red Star Parcels were still being carried on trains around the 1984-1985 period ( possibly later?)

 

I recall than when the new production Class 150/1 DMU were introduced on the Nottingham- Crewe route, that a passenger  area behind the Drivers cab  of the DMS vehicle was locked out when needed for Red Star Parcels, this was denoted by a light blue band above the large windows at cantrail level.

 

The two car Class 150/1 had replaced 3 Car Class 120 units that had a specific Guards brake compartment/ parcels area, on the Class 150/1 the Guard road in the rear cab.

 

I seem to recall one occasion on a very crowded service, where this compartment was locked out of use, to allow one  very small parcel to be securely conveyed ( this was about the size of a cereal packet) it was suggested to the Guard that he could put it in the rear cab and allow 20 + passengers to sit down. The Guard refused to do this for some reason.

 

By the next station stop a couple of railway staff (traveling on the cushions) got on, unlocked the door put the "precious parcel" on the floor and told all the standing passengers to sit down, the Guard latter returned and was not happy!

 

I seem to recall that this "parcel facility" on Class 150/1 only lasted for a couple of years (max) and the blue bands were removed at the first overhauls/ re-liveries.

 

Red Star Parcels were also conveyed on the West Highland line services, certainly before  the Sprinters arrived.

 

Hope this info is of use.

 

 

[phil-b259]

16 minutes ago, EE 8SVT said:

Red Star Parcels were still being carried on trains around the 1984-1985 period ( possibly later?)

 

I recall than when the new production Class 150/1 DMU were introduced on the Nottingham- Crewe route, that a passenger  area behind the Drivers cab  of the DMS vehicle was locked out when needed for Red Star Parcels, this was denoted by a light blue band above the large windows at cantrail level.

 

The two car Class 150/1 had replaced 3 Car Class 120 units that had a specific Guards brake compartment/ parcels area, on the Class 150/1 the Guard road in the rear cab.

 

I seem to recall one occasion on a very crowded service, where this compartment was locked out of use, to allow one  very small parcel to be securely conveyed ( this was about the size of a cereal packet) it was suggested to the Guard that he could put it in the rear cab and allow 20 + passengers to sit down. The Guard refused to do this for some reason.

 

By the next station stop a couple of railway staff (traveling on the cushions) got on, unlocked the door put the "precious parcel" on the floor and told all the standing passengers to sit down, the Guard latter returned and was not happy!

 

I seem to recall that this "parcel facility" on Class 150/1 only lasted for a couple of years (max) and the blue bands were removed at the first overhauls/ re-liveries.

 

Red Star Parcels were also conveyed on the West Highland line services, certainly before  the Sprinters arrived.

 

Hope this info is of use.

 

 

 

And that neatly describes why Red star was doomed as a service - as passenger trains shrunk and luggage space disappeared in favour of seats there was nowhere to put them.

 

IIRC by the time the plug was finally pulled on it all Red Star parcels were conveyed by road - certainly none were carried on passenger trains (with the possible exception of where a DVT was included in the formation or HSTs were used)

[keysan]

I once worked for a overnight 24 hour delivery company surprisingly called Nexday Limited based in Northampton. The last MD parachuted in before going bust was John Liderdale who resurfaced at Track 29 which I believe was the privatised version of Redstar. Happy to be corrected 

[Morello Cherry]

19 hours ago, flubrush said:

The British film industry relied on Red Star to get film negative (rushes) to London for processing.  All the major negative processing laboratories were in London - Ranks, Technicolor, Metrocolor, etc.   When going on location for filming,  one of the first jobs of a camera crew was to establsh the nearest Red Star office.  There was also the return service from London to the various regional centres of the BBC and ITV stations.   All the laboratories had small fleets of vans continually attending all the major terminii in London from early evening till early morning.

 

The beauty of the system was that it worked from all over the UK wherever there was a railway station with Red Star handling - even from Wick or Thurso although packages might take more than a day from there.

 

It actually worked very well and there were only occasional problems.

 

Jim.

 

Not just Wick and Thurso. You could even get a Red Star parcel sent from the wilds of North Wales.

 

 

I do wonder what would have happened if the service had survived another 5-10 years for the internet shopping boom.

[AMJ]

Looking at Wiki it appears that Lynx was a later name for the Red Star business and was later taken over by UPS

 

Based upon the schedules for container trains I'd have thought that these days packages could be put inside a container that could do the long haul by train.  Transferred onto a road wagon to the sorting office for distribution to the local area.

[phil-b259]

19 minutes ago, Morello Cherry said:

 

Not just Wick and Thurso. You could even get a Red Star parcel sent from the wilds of North Wales.

 

I do wonder what would have happened if the service had survived another 5-10 years for the internet shopping boom.

 

The internet shopping boom wouldn't have helped - you cannot carry parcels by rail if the trains lack space for parcels or carrying parcels means you need to take out passenger accommodation to do it!

 

No TOC was going to procure trains with luggage space when they can use that space for seats (and charge far more for it in the first place).

 

Had Red star survived it would have been as a road based logistics company that did not use rail just like DHL, UPS, etc

[phil-b259]

4 minutes ago, AMJ said:

Looking at Wiki it appears that Lynx was a later name for the Red Star business and was later taken over by UPS

 

Based upon the schedules for container trains I'd have thought that these days packages could be put inside a container that could do the long haul by train.  Transferred onto a road wagon to the sorting office for distribution to the local area.

 

Transhipment takes time (and adds cost).

 

Why do you think containers for domestic traffic never took off and all the new Freightliner terminals erected to cater for it ended up being closed (or re-invented as hubs for containers bought in from deep sea ports)

 

The thing is if you are talking about a container which has already taken 6 weeks to travel halfway round the world an extra day isn't going to hurt - particularly as it needs transhipment at the port onto road or rail in the first place.

 

Granted more recently the likes of Tesco have returned to rail for some distribution activity - but they can work on a 1 container for 1 superstore with no need to re-sort the contents at the other end which keeps things simple.

 

Also the thing about the parcels sector is its VERY cost driven! With most people expecting free / very low delivery charges but fast service for any parcels courier to turn a profit (in a highly competitive field) means ruthlessly pushing costs to an absolute minimum - hence the popularity of Zero hours contracts and self employment for the delivery agents because they keep costs down.

[Joseph_Pestell]

18 hours ago, TinTracks said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Star_Parcels

 Hi .lots of info and dates in the above link.

 Fom personal experience it was a fantastic service for its time. Sometime in the mid 1980s I ran a printed circuit board factory. One of my 3 spindle CNC drilling machines had burnt out a spindle significally reducing its production capacity. A company called VERO based in Southhampton put me a replacement  spindle on a train via Red Star Parcels. Later on the same afternoon one of my lads picked the spindle up from the Darlington office. We had the machine back up running on full capacity by, I think, 6pm the same day. Amazing service for its time.

 Hope this helps, Regards, Rich

 

In 1976, my first full time job was with a large firm of chartered accountants with offices across the UK. They used Red Star to transfer urgent documents around the country. I visited various Red Star offices around London.

As I recall, it worked very well.AA

Edited July 13, 2023 by Joseph_Pestell
Add

[Joseph_Pestell]

27 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

 

Transhipment takes time (and adds cost).

 

Why do you think containers for domestic traffic never took off and all the new Freightliner terminals erected to cater for it ended up being closed (or re-invented as hubs for containers bought in from deep sea ports)

 

The thing is if you are talking about a container which has already taken 6 weeks to travel halfway round the world an extra day isn't going to hurt - particularly as it needs transhipment at the port onto road or rail in the first place.

 

Granted more recently the likes of Tesco have returned to rail for some distribution activity - but they can work on a 1 container for 1 superstore with no need to re-sort the contents at the other end which keeps things simple.

 

Also the thing about the parcels sector is its VERY cost driven! With most people expecting free / very low delivery charges but fast service for any parcels courier to turn a profit (in a highly competitive field) means ruthlessly pushing costs to an absolute minimum - hence the popularity of Zero hours contracts and self employment for the delivery agents because they keep costs down.

 

As you say, the issue is always transhipment costs.

 

But it should not be impossible to build distribution depots alongside rail lines as there are many disused goods yards with a central hub in the Midlands (DPD have one at Bescot).

 

But what would the rolling stock look like? An average depot would probably need 3 HGVs a day when I worked in the industry, so probably a 4-car DMU (or, better, two 2-car DMUs coupled together. But that was 15 years ago. So trains would be longer now. 

[Wheatley]

Red Star was carried on trains at least until 1994, we still received them at Appleby at that date and possibly beyond (I left to go somewhere else then). One regular customer was the radar station on Great Dun Fell - goodness knows what they were receiving but the delivery agent (local taxi firm) hated them as there were at least a dozen  gates on the access road. 

 

Earlier at Barnsley we used to get a lot of odd bits from two local tile and clay drain manufacturers- Hepworth Iron Co and Naylors Pipes. Most of their output went in bulk by lorry, but if a building site rang asking for an extra left handed widget they'd Red Star it out. We got quite adept at making consignment  labels stick to earthenware and other similarly unsticky surfaces  but the addresses were sometimes interesting. One in particular was "Bovis, Field Opposite Sainsburys, A46 south of Stratford on Avon". It was a bit of pipe for delivery and delivery charges were  calculated on distance from the delivery station, in this case Coventry. Building sites rarely having post codes, and our last southbound designated Rd Star service for the day imminent, after a short confab we put the postcode for Coventry station in because the PBM (Parcels Business Machine) knew that, and shoved it on the train. 

 

Coventry rang the next day. It took their driver some time to find the right field, which turned out to be rather nearer to Tewksbury than Stratford, and because the delivery postcode was the same as the delivery station's, delivery was free. No wonder they lost money. 

Edited July 13, 2023 by Wheatley

[hmrspaul]

1 hour ago, phil-b259 said:

 

Transhipment takes time (and adds cost).

 

Why do you think containers for domestic traffic never took off and all the new Freightliner terminals erected to cater for it ended up being closed (or re-invented as hubs for containers bought in from deep sea ports)

 

 

Bit OT but Royal Mail had containers during the 1980s, I know nothing about how common they were or how long they were used. https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/brfreightlinercontainer/e2a0ab6a3   https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/brfreightlinercontainer/e3387279a   

 

Paul

 

[31A]

I think Sectorisation was one reason for Red Star's demise.  Up to then, at smaller stations the same clerical staff that sold passenger tickets also dealt with parcels, in the same premises, and the Railman (platform staff) put the parcels on the train as well as performing other duties as necessary around the station.  The trains all had coaches with Brake sections for the Guard's accommodation anyway.  So all that was effectively 'free' to the parcels service and would have been there anyway, but at Sectorisation notional costs and time of the assets and staff had to be divided between the relevant Sectors and suddenly it wasn't 'free' any longer.

 

Class 150 DMUs were mentioned earlier, but a lot of rolling stock of that generation had lockable areas for parcels.  For example on the 317s on the GN, the saloon at one end of one of the driving cars was lockable for the carriage of parcels and when in use for parcels, the external doors to that part of the saloon didn't respond to the passenger door buttons but could be released by staff using a button on the coach end.  As the GN electrics were DOO by then, the station staff had to meet the trains and load and unload the parcels.  But that didn't last very long and I think the parcels for intermediate stations went by road for a while before the service ceased.

[woodenhead]

Not forgetting the Mk3 and Mk4 DVTs that replaced the old Mk1 BGs on WCML and ECML services leaving a lot of redundant space after the demise of postal and Red Star traffic that couldn't be repurposed for passengers due to H&S rules above 100mph.

[The Stationmaster]

16 hours ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

As you say, the issue is always transhipment costs.

 

But it should not be impossible to build distribution depots alongside rail lines as there are many disused goods yards with a central hub in the Midlands (DPD have one at Bescot).

 

But what would the rolling stock look like? An average depot would probably need 3 HGVs a day when I worked in the industry, so probably a 4-car DMU (or, better, two 2-car DMUs coupled together. But that was 15 years ago. So trains would be longer now. 

How many disused goods yards near or adjacebt to stations which are still open either haven't been converted into car parks or sold off for redevelopment and are now industrial estates or covered by housing?  Or in some cases have gone under a road?

 

11 hours ago, woodenhead said:

Not forgetting the Mk3 and Mk4 DVTs that replaced the old Mk1 BGs on WCML and ECML services leaving a lot of redundant space after the demise of postal and Red Star traffic that couldn't be repurposed for passengers due to H&S rules above 100mph.

Which 'rules' of  course no longer exist so in new stock, such as IETs and 110mph Class 387, the end vehicles include passenger accommodation.

[Wheatley]

14 hours ago, 31A said:

I think Sectorisation was one reason for Red Star's demise.  Up to then, at smaller stations the same clerical staff that sold passenger tickets also dealt with parcels, in the same premises, and the Railman (platform staff) put the parcels on the train as well as performing other duties as necessary around the station.  The trains all had coaches with Brake sections for the Guard's accommodation anyway.  So all that was effectively 'free' to the parcels service and would have been there anyway, but at Sectorisation notional costs and time of the assets and staff had to be divided between the relevant Sectors and suddenly it wasn't 'free' any longer. 

It certainly brought Red Star's actual costs into sharp relief. It was also badly managed at least at local level.

 

We were Other Provincial Services/Regional Railways staff but one post was funded by Red Star. So they sent us the Official Red Star Jumper. Just the one. It was hideous - bright red and yellow with the logo knitted in, it looked like it had been handed knitted by a load of grannies who'd been dropping acid. It was duly dumped on a shelf and forgotten about.    

 

There were normally 4 of us on duty, and Red Star customers were dealt with by whoever was least busy. Then one day we got a b*****king memo from the Area Red Star Manager. Apparently their mystery customer had seen The Official Red Star Jumper dumped on the racking and not adorning the booking clerk dealing with their enquiry, and this was to cease forthwith. The Official Red Star Jumper was to be worn at all times when on Official Red Star Business. Fine we thought, we can do malicious compliance with the rest of them. So the Official Red Star Jumper was hung up in the door way between the booking and Red Star offices, and thereafter Red Star customers were made to wait while whoever went to deal with them ceremoniously took off their their BR jumper and donned the Official Red Star Jumper. A complaint eventually reached our Station Manager who simply returned it to Red Star with a highlighted copy of their memo attached.  

 

Pacers had a lockable parcels area too. Locking it rendered the unit unfit for traffic as there were now no passenger doors available on the single door side of the vehicle.  

Edited July 14, 2023 by Wheatley

[phil-b259]

18 hours ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

As you say, the issue is always transhipment costs.

 

But it should not be impossible to build distribution depots alongside rail lines as there are many disused goods yards with a central hub in the Midlands (DPD have one at Bescot).

 

But what would the rolling stock look like? An average depot would probably need 3 HGVs a day when I worked in the industry, so probably a 4-car DMU (or, better, two 2-car DMUs coupled together. But that was 15 years ago. So trains would be longer now. 

You need more than 3 or 4 wagons to make rail freight pay - that’s why even though Tesco do use rail it’s just for the trunk hall with the containers decanted to lorries when it gets to Mossend or returns to Daventry.

 

If you are talking about carriage on passenger trains  (which is more appropriate for a single lorry / van load of parcels) then aside from persuading the TOCs to provide a suitable luggage area on the trains themselves you need facilities to transfer the stuff at stations and employ people to do it!

 

All of this adds cost - and with so many competitors in the field a high cost operation is a sure way of going bust!

[31A]

Actually there is some parcels traffic by passenger train at the moment:

 

https://intercityrailfreight.com

 

Article in the May 2023 Modern Railways magazine probably explains it better than their web site does.

[Morello Cherry]

While this is a counterfactual and hence and element to this of if your aunt had balls she'd be your uncle but...

 

It is worth noting how fluid the early Internet boom years were. So there was nothing that said that it had to be Amazon, Ebay or Google. I was reading about the closure of The Book Depository which had been one of Amazon's main rivals in the UK until Amazon bought it. 

 

This means that these companies all had to find ways of setting up and building their distribution infrastructure. Had the parcels/red star network been in place, there was a usable distribution infrastructure in place (The Book Depository was based in Gloucester if memory serves me correctly - ideally placed for exploiting the rail network to distribute parcels). Now, maybe in the end the break it, zero hours, windowless Amazon warehouse model would have won out,  but alternatively rivals could have reduced initial overheads, costs or limits on expansion by making use of the railways, in that soft early phase when no one quite knew what the model was going to look like . Certainly there would, had the railways been in a position to play a role, have been an opportunity.

 

I also don't buy the 'no Toc would give up seats for parcels' argument because i) we don't know what volumes would have looked like and if the economies of scale would have made it profitable, ii) although pacers and sprinters have been flagged up as having inflexible interiors, if anything modern rolling stock has shown its flexibility. Thinking here about the rearrangement of the 165/166s to include extra luggage space for Gatwick passengers,  or the way in which first class has been moved around on them and the 450s, or the removal of the fixed catering on the 444s. Or indeed the various internal changes made to mk3s, makes me think that the idea that parcels couldn't be transported on modern trains is not entirely supported by the evidence. iii) the sheer volume of second hard rolling stock hanging around that could have been re-purposed. Early 2000s, almost new 67s, plenty of 66s. There was hardly a shortage of locos or stock for potential use on parcels traffic.

 

As it is by the time the Internet shopping boom kicked off, the parcels infrastructure whether that is say Bristol Temple Meads, or the desk in the Porthmadog harbour, or Wick had been lost, and so your parcels point became in the co-op, newsagent, and it became zero hours, terrible pay and conditions and dodgy vans for distribution. 

[The Johnster]

TOCs are in a good position, however, to use staff travelling on trains at no extra cost as station-to-station couriers.