LNER Q6 Cylinder Failure at Grosmont (NYMR)

[adb968008]

On 18/06/2023 at 11:03, DougN said:

I would love to see Green Arrow running again also. Interesting comparison with Flying Scotsman and the A4s as some are still running...

I dont feel hopeful about seeing anything in the “main” collection ever running again, not with the workshop gone etc.

 

is 60103 currently the only National collection steam loco operational ?

 

I know 30777/70013 are under overhaul, 850 looks a bit worse for wear, 44027 I dont even know where that is, and 30120 is under overhaul, I assume 925 may be ?

 

Any others subject to overhaul ?

 

 

 

 

[DougN]

10 hours ago, adb968008 said:

I dont feel hopeful about seeing anything in the “main” collection ever running again, not with the workshop gone etc.

 

is 60103 currently the only National collection steam loco operational ?

 

I know 30777/70013 are under overhaul, 850 looks a bit worse for wear, 44027 I dont even know where that is, and 30120 is under overhaul, I assume 925 may be ?

 

Any others subject to overhaul ?

 

 

 

 

Well that's incredibly sad, as each loco is not original (I have heard that Mallard is a combination of parts off a number of A4's) it is disappointing that the museum is a static one. these locos should be seen doing what they do on the main line/ branchline/ preserved line. The same argument could be had for a zoo.... you can go to a museum and see one stuffed and mounted... but watching a animal living is so much more interesting... same with a locomotive, let it do what it did, if parts wear out replace/ repair etc....in the same way a animal goes and sees a vet.... admittedly your can breed a animal and end up with more... What are the breeding habits of A4's?? ... you can borrow them from other museums... oh hang on that has already been done...  

 

No seriously the NRM will be looking for Class 37's 47's etc to add to the collection. Collecting items for the collection is a way to hold onto the heritage. My point of view is if you can see it operating it makes so much more impression on what the exhibit did originally. So I support the idea of heritage but I don't support the idea of stuffing and mounting them.  BY ADB96008's comment above the NRM disagree with my view... except for a certain Flying Scotsman!

[SRman]

1 hour ago, DougN said:

... snipped ...

What are the breeding habits of A4's?? ... 

... snipped ...

 

No seriously the NRM will be looking for Class 37's 47's etc to add to the collection. Collecting items for the collection is a way to hold onto the heritage. My point of view is if you can see it operating it makes so much more impression on what the exhibit did originally. So I support the idea of heritage but I don't support the idea of stuffing and mounting them.  BY ADB96008's comment above the NRM disagree with my view... except for a certain Flying Scotsman!

Not just seeing them in action, but a big part of it is hearing them and also smelling them (not so much the diesels for the latter, although there are distinctive odours there too).

As to the breeding habits of A4s, you of all people should be able to duplicate that in 1/76 scale, Doug! 😉🤣


 

Edited June 22, 2023 by SRman

[papagolfjuliet]

12 hours ago, adb968008 said:

I dont feel hopeful about seeing anything in the “main” collection ever running again, not with the workshop gone etc.

 

is 60103 currently the only National collection steam loco operational ?

 

I know 30777/70013 are under overhaul, 850 looks a bit worse for wear, 44027 I dont even know where that is, and 30120 is under overhaul, I assume 925 may be ?

 

Any others subject to overhaul ?

 

 

 

 

 

THis is the NRM's operational rail vehicle strategy, i.e. the list of locos and stock either operational (as of 2019) or on loan as working items or potentially available for overhaul or loan (note that the Class 313 is now on the deaccession list and that the prototype HST was recalled under controversial circumstances). If it isn't in this document, chances are that it will never run again. 

chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/https://www.sciencemuseumgroup.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/op-rail-vehicle-strategy-2019_FINAL.pdf

[stewartingram]

In the same post above we hear that it is a shame that Mallard is a combination of others, and that locos should be kept running, replacing as necessary parts that wear out....

 

Surely this is the same thing? ALL locos throughout their (normal)** working life had parts replaced - even your car does. In a major organisation - such as the LNER (other names are available), a loco would enter works and be stripped for overhaul, the parts being sent in different directions for overhaul (or scrap and replacement). Re-assembly was usually with many parts taken from stores stock,  so not guaranteed to be from the same loco. Indeed sometimes it could be from a different class if it fitted. Even frames - usually what is regarded as the 'identity' of the loco - were sometimes replaced.

**I regard 'normal' working life as what the loco was originally built for; in the case of the A4, LNER use (and subsequent takeover by BR.) In some cases locos would have this extended - sold on to the likes of NCB, or Colonel Stephens light railways, in much the same way as a pre-owned car is bought. After that, preservation (as it has been called for many years, but maybe a better term could be thought of nowadays?). Unless stuffed & mounted, this is not 'normal' service, but it is still an operating life and the loco has to be looked after just as well (or indeed often better) as during its normal life. All part of the history of the particular loco. 

I also regard any livery applied after withdrawal  from normal service (ie pin preservation) as genuine historical livery, as it is carried by the loco during its life. Not carried in normal service maybe, but still genuine at a given point in time.

[rogerzilla]

It still amazes me that Mallard was steamed up and run in the 1980s.

[SRman]

15 hours ago, stewartingram said:

In the same post above we hear that it is a shame that Mallard is a combination of others, and that locos should be kept running, replacing as necessary parts that wear out....

 

Surely this is the same thing? ALL locos throughout their (normal)** working life had parts replaced - even your car does. In a major organisation - such as the LNER (other names are available), a loco would enter works and be stripped for overhaul, the parts being sent in different directions for overhaul (or scrap and replacement). Re-assembly was usually with many parts taken from stores stock,  so not guaranteed to be from the same loco. Indeed sometimes it could be from a different class if it fitted. Even frames - usually what is regarded as the 'identity' of the loco - were sometimes replaced.

**I regard 'normal' working life as what the loco was originally built for; in the case of the A4, LNER use (and subsequent takeover by BR.) In some cases locos would have this extended - sold on to the likes of NCB, or Colonel Stephens light railways, in much the same way as a pre-owned car is bought. After that, preservation (as it has been called for many years, but maybe a better term could be thought of nowadays?). Unless stuffed & mounted, this is not 'normal' service, but it is still an operating life and the loco has to be looked after just as well (or indeed often better) as during its normal life. All part of the history of the particular loco. 

I also regard any livery applied after withdrawal  from normal service (ie pin preservation) as genuine historical livery, as it is carried by the loco during its life. Not carried in normal service maybe, but still genuine at a given point in time.

At risk of diverting this topic, and totally agreeing with you, you should try London buses of old. For the large classes (think STL and RT double deckers, also RF single deckers), they had 103 bodies for every 100 chassis, and the two parts were combined and recombined repeatedly over the lives of the buses. At overhaul they were so completely stripped and rebuilt, it's not even certain any of the parts that were on the bus that emerged at the end were from the bus that went in. When it comes to preserving them, that's an accepted part of their history. Steam locomotives were much the same, with boilers and sometimes even chassis being renewed. 

[toby_tl10]

On 17/06/2023 at 05:40, Bucoops said:

A prime (ha ha - not that I am saying that is what happened) candidate for that is the block from Green Arrow. Construct a modern replacement using the same techniques that they used for the new build P2 and the old one would make a heck of an exhibit.

 

Regarding Green Arrow, this is the response from Anthony Coulls, Senior Curator at NRM:

Quote

It could be done, we have the drawings. Cost is a major issue, which is why we'd need a partner to even consider it. Unlike the P2, we would seek a like for like replacement with a new casting rather than a fabrication.

 

From the comments section of this video.

[Mike_Walker]

7 hours ago, SRman said:

At risk of diverting this topic, and totally agreeing with you, you should try London buses of old. For the large classes (think STL and RT double deckers, also RF single deckers), they had 103 bodies for every 100 chassis, and the two parts were combined and recombined repeatedly over the lives of the buses. At overhaul they were so completely stripped and rebuilt, it's not even certain any of the parts that were on the bus that emerged at the end were from the bus that went in. When it comes to preserving them, that's an accepted part of their history. Steam locomotives were much the same, with boilers and sometimes even chassis being renewed. 

A friend who was a conductor at Edmonton back in the day told me how once a RT arrived fresh from overhaul at Aldenham with the same identity as the one that was supposed to go for overhaul but for some reason didn't.  They got parked side by side but he didn't have a camera to record the event.

[Matt37268]

On 23/06/2023 at 10:54, Mike_Walker said:

A friend who was a conductor at Edmonton back in the day told me how once a RT arrived fresh from overhaul at Aldenham with the same identity as the one that was supposed to go for overhaul but for some reason didn't.  They got parked side by side but he didn't have a camera to record the event.

Didn’t something like that happen with the A3 in the Castle Cary accident? 

[Jeremy Cumberland]

23 minutes ago, Matt37268 said:

Didn’t something like that happen with the A3 in the Castle Cary accident? 

2744 Grand Parade was scrapped and a new 2744 Grand Parade was built, and I suppose the two of them might have been seen side by side at one point (if it really was a new locomotive rather than a rebuild), However, even if they did both exist at the same time, it probably wasn't illegal. There was. of course, nothing to stop London Transport using the same fleet number twice, but fleet numbers were tied to registration numbers, and they'd have been breaking the law to have two buses out on the road with the same registration number.

[Mike_Walker]

2 hours ago, Jeremy Cumberland said:

2744 Grand Parade was scrapped and a new 2744 Grand Parade was built, and I suppose the two of them might have been seen side by side at one point (if it really was a new locomotive rather than a rebuild), However, even if they did both exist at the same time, it probably wasn't illegal. There was. of course, nothing to stop London Transport using the same fleet number twice, but fleet numbers were tied to registration numbers, and they'd have been breaking the law to have two buses out on the road with the same registration number.

I don't think the two identical RTs were one road together just in the garage.  The delayed one probably went to Aldenham on trade plates although LT were big enough to be able to bend the law and get away with it 

[rogerzilla]

On 23/06/2023 at 04:23, toby_tl10 said:

 

Regarding Green Arrow, this is the response from Anthony Coulls, Senior Curator at NRM:

 

From the comments section of this video.

The problem with that approach is that the original design or manufacture  was flawed, hence the number of V2s with outside steam pipes after the monobloc had to be replaced.  Iron alloys might be better these days but there's not much residual experience of making large steam loco castings.

[5944]

On 21/06/2023 at 22:06, adb968008 said:

I dont feel hopeful about seeing anything in the “main” collection ever running again, not with the workshop gone etc.

 

is 60103 currently the only National collection steam loco operational ?

 

I know 30777/70013 are under overhaul, 850 looks a bit worse for wear, 44027 I dont even know where that is, and 30120 is under overhaul, I assume 925 may be ?

 

Any others subject to overhaul ?

 

 

 

 

Replica Rocket at Shildon is operational too. I think that's it though, other than 60103. 30120, 850 and 30925 are all stored pending overhaul. Currently under overhaul, in addition to 30777 and 70013 are 63601 (GCR), Taff Vale no. 28 (Gwili), 44027 (Vale of Berkeley), and Hunslet 3183 (Flour Mill). Progress on the latter three appears to glacial.

[6990WitherslackHall]

63395 stored in the Deviation Shed at Grosmont on 07/07/23.

 

 

[adb968008]

On 22/06/2023 at 11:39, rogerzilla said:

It still amazes me that Mallard was steamed up and run in the 1980s.

Different times, different leadership.

 

I suspect it was the curse of the flying moneypit thats been the nrms downfall as an operator of preserved locomotives.

 

I remember the plan to resteam 6229 in streamlined condition by 2018.. i also donated money in the 1990’s towards 6000’s restoration.. who knows where that money went.

 

Still the deaccessioning of the T3 has resulted in great things…ive just listened to its whistles sounded for the first time since 1948 today…(Loco and brake whistle), and a video of it moving on its own… its going to be exciting in Swanage this summer.

Edited July 19, 2023 by adb968008

[rodent279]

On 22/06/2023 at 09:06, DougN said:

No seriously the NRM will be looking for Class 37's 47's etc to add to the collection.

I can't see the NRM being interested in 37's & 47's.  There's enough of them "preserved" elsewhere, and I don't think they are really keen on anything post about 1960.

[russ p]

9 minutes ago, rodent279 said:

I can't see the NRM being interested in 37's & 47's.  There's enough of them "preserved" elsewhere, and I don't think they are really keen on anything post about 1960.

They have a 37 and 47. D6700 and Royal 47

[rodent279]

6 minutes ago, russ p said:

They have a 37 and 47. D6700 and Royal 47

Didn't  realise, I'm out of touch!

[6990WitherslackHall]

Update on 63395:

 

The North Eastern Locomotive Preservation Group (NELPG) have launched an appeal called 'Chip in for a Cylinder'. With the appeal, the society is looking to raise funds, of at least £20,000, to repair or replace the cylinder. NELPG hope to have 63395 working again within 18 months.

 

https://www.nelpg.org.uk/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=2286:q6-appeal&catid=1:news&Itemid=53

Edited August 3, 2023 by 6990WitherslackHall

[DougN]

9 hours ago, 6990WitherslackHall said:

Update on 63395:

 

The North Eastern Locomotive Preservation Group (NELPG) have launched an appeal called 'Chip in for a Cylinder'. With the appeal, the society is looking to raise funds, of at least £20,000, to repair or replace the cylinder. NELPG hope to have 63395 working again within 18 months.

 

https://www.nelpg.org.uk/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=2286:q6-appeal&catid=1:news&Itemid=53

I do wonder if they could Say chip in for a cylinder or 2.... and  rebuild the V2...

[RichardT]

On 03/08/2023 at 07:36, rodent279 said:

and I don't think they are really keen on anything post about 1960.

“Having a go at the NRM” is a well-established enthusiast sport, and sometimes criticisms are worthwhile (mainly those from enthusiasts who realise that it’s not called the “National Locomotive Museum” and has other things on which to spend its restricted funds).
 

But is it too much to ask that those having a go could be bothered to do some basic online searching first about what’s in the collection?

 

Richard

Edited August 7, 2023 by RichardT

[papagolfjuliet]

On 22/06/2023 at 11:39, rogerzilla said:

It still amazes me that Mallard was steamed up and run in the 1980s.

 

4468's overhaul was paid for by Scarborough Borough Council, which expected the engine to spend a full main line ticket operating the Scarborough Spa Express. What it did not know was that the NRM had arranged that so as not to compete for business with the other two main line A4s 'Mallard' would not be fully overhauled and would only make a limited number of runs before withdrawal. So that was the ratepayers of Scarborough shafted.

[papagolfjuliet]

On 03/08/2023 at 07:47, russ p said:

They have a 37 and 47. D6700 and Royal 47

 And classes 02, 03, 08, 09, 20, 31, 33, 40, 41, 43, 55, 71, 76, 77, 84, 87, 101, 108, 142, and 373, plus various Southern electrics and DP1 and LEV1. It's a fairly impressive lineup.

[russ p]

4 minutes ago, papagolfjuliet said:

 And classes 02, 03, 08, 09, 20, 31, 33, 40, 41, 43, 55, 71, 76, 77, 84, 87, 101, 108, 142, and 373, plus various Southern electrics and DP1 and LEV1. It's a fairly impressive lineup.

 

It is but shame they hardly operate any of it