Loading gauge positioning

[AyJay]

Does anyone know if there is a convention for where a loading gauge should be sited?

I have positioned mine in the middle of my siding loop; bottom left of photo, where the coke wagon is.

However, I now wonder if it should be sited at the entrance to my parcels sidings; where the single closed van is positioned?

What do you think?

[Steamport Southport]

They're usually placed in a position where the wagons can be checked that they won't be out of gauge before they go on to the main line.

 

Often directly outside of the place they are loaded such as the goods shed.

 

https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrss538.htm

 

But always on a straight section of track and can be set back from the rest of the sidings.

 

https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrga800a.htm

 

Sometimes even in the station environs such as at Cirencester Town.

 

http://disused-stations.org.uk/c/cirencester_town/index2.shtml

 

I'm pretty sure someone will know the full details.

 

 

Jason

[Nearholmer]

Modeller’s lore has it that they can never be place over a main running line, but there were very odd places at which they were. Frinstance: https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrlr956.htm

 

My guess is that it was all about practicalities, so that they were located where a simple shunt permitted use, very much usually before going on a running line, and certainly before encountering a fixed obstruction like a bridge or canopy.

Edited May 6, 2023 by Nearholmer

[Il Grifone]

At Clifton Down (Bristol) it was placed on the headshunt just before the St. Johns Road bridge on the opposite side from the goods yard. Not really a lot of use - I never saw it used!

The site of the yard is now a shopping centre.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clifton_Down_railway_station

 

Edited May 6, 2023 by Il Grifone

[Nearholmer]

To reassure the OP, I think the position of his LG is entirely plausible, and that it looks to be in the topologically equivalent position to those at stations on the Watlington Branch, which had ‘loop sidings’.

[DCB]

At some locations the gauge would never or almost never be used,   It would make little sense to have a gauge on a running line if there was somewhere else to put it, but sometimes as at Cirencester it made sense to have  gauge to check every wagon leaving an end load dock as Carriages were one of the items most likely to foul the loading gauge.   Lord Bathurst (the bloke  5051 was renamed as) had his gaff just behind Ciren station and he and his chums would likely be frequent travellers often taking their coaches / carriages etc on flat carriage trucks.   Far better to have a row when the carriage was too high as it left the loading dock than when it lost a chunk of roof on the Chesterton Lane overbridge...

[kevinlms]

I think it needs to be remembered that the vast majority of the time, the loading gauge didn't need to used (for example the OP's coal wagon!), why would the yard staff go to the trouble of checking, when most wagons where well within loading gauge?

So would they only use the gauge, if there was some doubt, such as DCB's example?

 

It's like 'bridge bashing', most large vehicle drivers, do check the height of their vehicle and drive within the bridge limits and so don't make it to the 'Bridge Bashing' thread!

 

As a matter of interest, how often were wagons sent away 'out of gauge'?

[Michael Hodgson]

7 hours ago, kevinlms said:

As a matter of interest, how often were wagons sent away 'out of gauge'?

When an out of gauge lorry ends up on the bridge bashing thread, the bridge has usually done a tin opener job on the roof or load,  But sometimes it's only just marginally above the limit and gets itself wedged, so they let the tyres down and can drag it out.

Silly boy quesion, but how do you deal with that problem on an out of gauge railway wagon stuck under a bridge?

[Steamport Southport]

8 hours ago, kevinlms said:

I think it needs to be remembered that the vast majority of the time, the loading gauge didn't need to used (for example the OP's coal wagon!), why would the yard staff go to the trouble of checking, when most wagons where well within loading gauge?

So would they only use the gauge, if there was some doubt, such as DCB's example?

 

It's like 'bridge bashing', most large vehicle drivers, do check the height of their vehicle and drive within the bridge limits and so don't make it to the 'Bridge Bashing' thread!

 

As a matter of interest, how often were wagons sent away 'out of gauge'?

 

We're not talking coal or mineral wagons. They wouldn't be getting loaded at a station or goods yard.

 

We are talking goods, particularly bulky loads such as wood or farm produce. There was a huge trade at Liverpool of cotton going to Manchester and that was extremely bulky, the L&Y had very high sided wagons for it.

 

Virtually we are talking about wagons loaded like this.

 

 

There are entire books dedicated to loading wagons.

 

 

Jason

Edited May 7, 2023 by Steamport Southport

[kevinlms]

3 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

We're not talking coal or mineral wagons. They wouldn't be getting loaded at a station or goods yard.

 

We are talking goods, particularly bulky loads such as wood or farm produce. There was a huge trade at Liverpool of cotton going to Manchester and that was extremely bulky, the L&Y had very high sided wagons for it.

 

Virtually we are talking about wagons loaded like this.

 

 

There are entire books dedicated to loading wagons.

 

 

Jason

I know that - thanks for pointing it out! Those sort of photos are notorious and I have seen them before!

 

My point that most wagons don't need a LG remains. Some small stations that have already appeared in this thread, don't have seperate coal and goods facilities, but they still have a LG, even if a single siding.

[kevinlms]

44 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

When an out of gauge lorry ends up on the bridge bashing thread, the bridge has usually done a tin opener job on the roof or load,  But sometimes it's only just marginally above the limit and gets itself wedged, so they let the tyres down and can drag it out.

Silly boy quesion, but how do you deal with that problem on an out of gauge railway wagon stuck under a bridge?

Grind the flanges off, of course!

[Steamport Southport]

4 minutes ago, kevinlms said:

I know that - thanks for pointing it out! Those sort of photos are notorious and I have seen them before!

 

My point that most wagons don't need a LG remains. Some small stations that have already appeared in this thread, don't have seperate coal and goods facilities, but they still have a LG, even if a single siding.

 

They need one if loading is to occur. Sometimes that might even be on the platform.

 

Many stations had the sidings separate from the station or there might be a private siding or railway connected facility nearby. You really need to look at the track plans for the whole area to get the bigger picture.

 

I can't remember which station it was, but one of the GWR termini that has been modelled a lot, most of the models always seem to miss the railway connected gas works out!

 

Might actually be Ashburton.

 

 

 

Jason

[AyJay]

Looks like  I kicked off another interesting subject for discussion. After looking at it, I felt that it just did not ‘look right’ where it was.  So I uprooted it and replanted it just before the goods shed, looks much better there. Where I took it from is right by the wood yard and I have a crane that I want to plant there.

Thank you for your interesting comments all.

[Michael Hodgson]

43 minutes ago, AyJay said:

Looks like  I kicked off another interesting subject for discussion. After looking at it, I felt that it just did not ‘look right’ where it was.  So I uprooted it and replanted it just before the goods shed, looks much better there. Where I took it from is right by the wood yard and I have a crane that I want to plant there.

Thank you for your interesting comments all.

 

Looks fine there, but if you're loading timber in your wood yard (rather than unloading it as a timber merchant), you'd have more reason to need the loading gauge there.

[AyJay]

Good point Michael. However, there’s not a sawmill, just a builders merchants/wood yard, so it’s offloading only there. Now I just need to make the crane…

[Free At Last]

What is the purpose for the ends of the gauge bar lifting?

[Steamport Southport]

20 minutes ago, Free At Last said:

What is the purpose for the ends of the gauge bar lifting?

 

The little "ears"?

 

They drop down so you can tell whether the gauge is too wide. The real ones have a pulley system.

 

 

 

Jason

[Free At Last]

41 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

The little "ears"?

 

They drop down so you can tell whether the gauge is too wide. The real ones have a pulley system.

 

 

 

Jason

I guessed that but wondered why they needed to be lifted.
 

[kevinlms]

4 minutes ago, Free At Last said:

I guessed that but wondered why they needed to be lifted.
 

IIRC not all lines had the same clearances, so if a load was due to go to destination, that had lower height/width, the LG would need to be lowered to match that destination.

Whoever was responsible for measuring the load, presumably had a book with tables of dimensions.

[JimC]

16 minutes ago, kevinlms said:

IIRC not all lines had the same clearances,

I was just looking at that, loading gauges being something of an interest of mine. I was looking at a drawing of a Loading Gauge in Adrian Vaughan's 'Pictorial Record of GWR Architecture'. Its labelled GWR and LM&SR (Division A) Joint lines new standard loading gauge, May 1925. Firstly do any of you know what LMS Division A would be?  The dimensions - notably height in centre at 13'6 - seem to be GWR. Although 13'6 would also fit LNWR (except northern) and Midland (13'9) lines according to gauges I've found. The drop down ears, BTW, seem to be the reverse of what you'd expect. When the ears are up the width is 9ft, which would be good for LNWR and Midland Lines (and also some GWR lines that were never broad gauge) whilst the ears down is the post 1908 GWR width of 9'8. So presumably staff were expected to align load width with the gauge rather than expect contact. The main part of the gauge seems to be on chains and not adjustable for height, so presumably loads destined for other areas needed to be specially checked. 

 

Edited May 7, 2023 by JimC

[Michael Hodgson]

Some loading gauges were adjustable, because the height permitted varied a bit from company to company.

[JimC]

Yes, I've found a photo of a GCR gauge that was adjustable for various heights. All the others I've found, though, have the height fixed. One imagines that an adjustable gauge might have issues with railwaymen picking the wrong setting! Does anyone know if there were loading gauges at major interchange points? It would make sense for there to be.

On the subject of loading gauges, I have made a bit of a study of them as per link in signature, but I haven't succeeded in finding details for the LNER - who definitely had a composite loading gauge - and the LMS. If anyone has access to drawings for either of those I would be glad to see them. Or any others that aren't in my list of course.

 

[Later] I've just drawn up the loading gauge against my gauge drawings. I can confirm that with the ears up a conforming load would be entirely within the LNWR loading gauge, which was marginally taller than the GWR gauge, but only nine feet zero wide. With the ears down it gives the extra width of the standard GWR gauge. But also worth noting that there were a considerable number of GWR routes that also had a nine foot zero restriction. The midland gauge, on the other hand, even though its taller than the GWR gauge in the middle, is slightly smaller from about three from the middle and further out.

So I conclude that gauge must have been for ex LNWR/GWR joint lines.

 

Jim C

Edited May 7, 2023 by JimC
added extra information on LNWR and MR gauges.