Ping pong for dcc

[Makepeace]

I am but a bear with a small brain. I wish to create a ping pong single line running separately to my main tracks around the garage. Wish this to be automated as I don't want to keep reversing the direction manually. I run dcc and as soon as I looked online found loads of reversing loops, but no obvious solution for back and forth. Any steer to something that may help would be appreciated

[WIMorrison]

Search for DCC Shuttle and you should find what you want, here is one hit

 

BLOCKsignalling SDCC1 DCC Shuttle

[NIK]

Hi,

 

Some DCC decoders offer a shuttle facility triggered by Asymmetric DCC.

This has the advantage that if you ever want in future to connect your shuttle line to the rest of the layout you can. Also it can be easier to swap from one shuttle loco to another.

 

Some DCC shuttle modules have limited current capacity so may not be suitable for all locos.

 

Regards

 

Nick

[Makepeace]

Thank you. Shuttle appears to be the magic word. Did say I have but a small brain

[Legend]

1 hour ago, Makepeace said:

I am but a bear with a small brain. I wish to create a ping pong single line running separately to my main tracks around the garage. Wish this to be automated as I don't want to keep reversing the direction manually. I run dcc and as soon as I looked online found loads of reversing loops, but no obvious solution for back and forth. Any steer to something that may help would be appreciated

 

Have a look at Jenny Kirks YouTube channel . I believe she has very recently posted a video on DCC Shuttle using HMDCC7000.  I don't do DCC so haven't watched it myself . Jenny usually pretty good at explaining stuff though 

[Steven B]

The former CML Electronics, now Sig-na Track is worth looking at, but benefits from being plugged into LocoNet.

 

If you use JMRI then have a look through the available scripts - they include an example for a basic times shuttle and it should be possible to expand it to use data from sensors or block detectors. You'll also be able to sound whistles via the script.

 

The basic option if you have DC compatibility enabled is to run a separate section of track using a DC shuttle module.

 

Steven B

[DCCconcepts]

23 hours ago, Makepeace said:

I am but a bear with a small brain. I wish to create a ping pong single line running separately to my main tracks around the garage. Wish this to be automated as I don't want to keep reversing the direction manually. I run dcc and as soon as I looked online found loads of reversing loops, but no obvious solution for back and forth. Any steer to something that may help would be appreciated

 

A shuttle can easily be created using DCCconcepts Zen Black decoders and ABC modules.

They are powered from the normal DCC system. 

A couple of changes of CV values and ABC modules wired to the necessary bits of track and away you go.

 

The locos used for shuttle operation can also be controlled on the regular DCC tracks as well.

 

Best Regards,

The DCCconcepts Team

[JST]

I have this function on the branch line on my layout and it works perfectly. I use Zimo decoders so all I did was install a couple of Lenz ABC units and change some CVs. The cvs are 27 ,140, 141 (to set the exact stopping distance) and 193 to set the delay time before the train sets off again.

[Nigelcliffe]

On 20/04/2023 at 14:26, Makepeace said:

Thank you. Shuttle appears to be the magic word. 

 

For someone new to all of this - there are two different implementations of the shuttle feature using ABC modules in decoders.  They're not compatible for shuttles, unless extra switches are employed to select the type of decoder in use.  

 

Lenz, ESU, Zimo, and several other European brands use the same method, so the same modules work for them.  Its been that way for a very long time, I have locos with Lenz decoders installed before 2010 which work this way. 
Lenz/ESU/Zimo require the stop-circuit in same side of the rails in the direction of travel.  OR, if using the same geographic side of the track, the stop-circuit has to be turned around (swap the connectors around) which inverts the track signal bias.   

 

DCC-Concepts decided to do their own-thing, rather than work with a long-established method of other manufacturers.     For a shuttle, DCC Concepts manual says install the stop-circuit in same geographic rail, same diode orientation, at both ends of the track.  

 

That means DCC-Concepts requires the opposite stop-circuit arrangement to Lenz/ESU/Zimo at one end of the shuttle.   To work a mixed decoder loco layout, a switch to swap the orientation of one of the stop-circuits will be required to swap between the two arrangements, a DPDT switch on the wires to one stop-circuit can do this.  

 

 

Intermediate station stop devices are different between the Lenz/ESU/Zimo method and the DCC-Concepts method, so will require different track-side hardware.   

 

 

- Nigel

 

[Crosland]

1 hour ago, Nigelcliffe said:

DCC-Concepts decided to do their own-thing, rather than work with a long-established method of other manufacturers.  

 

So what does this mean https://us13.campaign-archive.com/?u=9687385558a1289cf97083ac7&id=5cedcc1305 ?

 

It would seem Hornby have decided to go against established standards, no surprise there, then.

[Bob83a]

1 hour ago, Crosland said:

 

So what does this mean https://us13.campaign-archive.com/?u=9687385558a1289cf97083ac7&id=5cedcc1305 ?

 

It would seem Hornby have decided to go against established standards, no surprise there, then.

Has anyone actually tried the decoders with Lenz ADCC/ABC modules (BM1-3) and shown it does not support the “standard” i.e. the Lenz/ESU format.

 

the HM7000 manual sort of implies that it should work but the setting of CV27 is contradictory.

 

We have seen that it works with the DCC concepts setup but is there anything showing that it does not work with Lenz/ESU.

[WIMorrison]

The setup used by DCC Concepts Zen decoders for ABC is different from the setup used in the Lenz/ESU/Zimo standard and you couldn't use the setup for one on the layout with the other. 

 

[Bob83a]

47 minutes ago, WIMorrison said:

The setup used by DCC Concepts Zen decoders for ABC is different from the setup used in the Lenz/ESU/Zimo standard and you couldn't use the setup for one on the layout with the other. 

 

But that does not answer the question, does it support the Lenz/esu setup.

 

if it supports both but just not on the same layout then Hornby have not gone their own way as suggested.

 

the docs mention Lenz but not DCC concepts! 

[Nigelcliffe]

7 hours ago, Crosland said:

 

So what does this mean https://us13.campaign-archive.com/?u=9687385558a1289cf97083ac7&id=5cedcc1305 ?

 

It would seem Hornby have decided to go against established standards, no surprise there, then.

 

No idea,  but I'm not wading through a long video looking for clues.   I notice a certain irony in the video being sponsored by Train-o-matic, who follow the Lenz implementation (BM2 for slow approach, Lenz structure for shuttle), rather than the DCC-Concepts different implementation. 

 

The Hornby HM7000 manual doesn't tell me enough to be sure which arrangement Hornby have adopted.      
However, the old Sapphire decoder did support ABC, though the manual available on the Hornby Website has no details, other than saying it is supported. The JMRI file for the Sapphire lists some CVs for ABC, so someone had access to better documentation in the past.   As the Sapphire pre-dates DCC-Concepts version of ABC it would have been Lenz/ESU/Zimo arrangement.   
As the one bit of standards that Hornby follow is "Hornby standard" (generally stuff works with previous Hornby products), then I'd say that makes it likely the new decoder follows Lenz/ESU/Zimo.  Someone with a decoder could test this!  

 

 

I repeat - the arrangement of ABC trackside units is different between the two implementations for a shuttle.  This can be swapped over with a DPDT switch.  Intermediate station stop (and slow approach) is totally different and requires different trackside hardware. 

 

- Nigel

 

 

Edited April 22, 2023 by Nigelcliffe

[RAF96]

I have used the Lenz BM1 modules (albeit diy versions ex-Sapphire testing) with the 7000 decoders and they work. My test track was a simple circle isolated on one rail only at mid point each side to provide the live and controlled sections. Only one BM1 clone was used. By way of selecting detect both rails in the decoder set-up the loco trundled back and forth under stop by CV4 rate or stop by set distance. Setting this up as an end to end would have required two BM1s and each rail orientated as necessary.

Jenny used DCC concepts ABC modules in her video as they were already in place on the layout and again selected detect both rails in the decoder.

Edited April 23, 2023 by RAF96