Anyone Else Put Off Small Suppliers Who Don't Sell Online?

[CWJ]

Morning All,

 

I should start by saying that I love the proliferation of smaller manufacturers who are good enough to sell a vast range of unusual and obscure bits and bobs which, without them, we would have to fashion by hand or do without. So this isn't a criticism of the suppliers, it's a question for their customers.

 

Does anyone else find they're about 100 times more likely to buy something if the supplier has an online shop?

 

I've recently returned to the hobby after a 10-year gap and am surprised to find that while some cottage industries have set up modern websites from which to sell their products, others are still in the era of photocopied price lists and cheque books.  A discussion on the Eileen's Emporium thread got me thinking about this.

 

I'm sure the cost of building and running an online shop is not negligible, but in the post-pandemic age I'd have thought it pretty much essential if you want your stuff to sell well. I for one am not keen on spending money with a supplier who only describes their product briefly (e.g. "whitemetal Class 47 buffers" could be really fine, detailed castings or crude blobs from a 50-year-old mould*), with no photos, and needs me to ring them up during office hours when I'm supposed to be working, giving my card details over the phone (presumably with no security back-up from my bank if anything goes wrong?) and hoping they hear me correctly.  Or worse, having to fill in an order form, hope they work out exactly which variants of which product my handwriting is describing, find my 20-year-old cheque book and post the order to them. If it's the kind of product only made occasionally in batches, rather than off the shelf, I won't know whether my order has even been received until the delivery arrives.

 

I repeat: I'm not saying this to criticise the suppliers, I respect the choices they need to make to balance their overheads with their income. Having said that, the ordering rules some suppliers impose on their customers would suggest that manual phone/postal ordering creates a big workload for them and can be a source of misunderstandings.

 

But sadly the honest truth is that the lack of an online shop puts me off.  Do others feel the same? Is this something which needs to change in order for our much-needed small suppliers to survive?

 

Or am I expecting too much? Are there people who prefer doing things the traditional way?

 

For the record I turn 40 this year, so while possibly below average age for a railway modeller I'm not exactly a Gen-Z youth either!  Nor do I agree with the 'supplier-has-appalling-customer-service-for-not-replying-to-my-email-within-an-hour" brigade; we must cut these manufacturers some slack for running their enterprise in their spare time or with limited resources.

 

Interested to hear what others think!

 

Cheers,

 

Will

 

* this is a fictional example - I have no gripes with any specific product or supplier.

[ikcdab]

Yes I agree.  I am far far more likely to buy if there is an online shop. If I have to ring up then I might buy.  If I have to send a letter and cheque then zero chance of me buying.

I am also surprised by those who have online shop but they won't allow you to send credit card details and you have you ring up to pay.

I know it's not fashionable to criticise things, but if you really do want this sell, then an online shop that accepts payments and rapid delivery is essential.

Ian

 

 

[PhilH]

Another facet would seem to me to be the fact that online is usually the way I find out about suppliers and their goods. I don’t buy magazines so unless I hear about them from a friend or read about it on here they remain part of the model railway secret society.

 

For me Google really is my friend.

 

[Hal Nail]

19 minutes ago, CWJ said:

Or am I expecting too much? Are there people who prefer doing things the traditional way?

I knew someone who desperately wanted to run a surf shop. They found a place in random bit of South London and ran it without a website. It didn't do very well.

 

Sadly the numbers of business failing early is quite high. I suppose the reality is if you have the enthusiasm and some funding to set up a business, there isn't really a test to check you have any idea how to actually make it work

[Hal Nail]

Actually just remembered a more relevant example.

 

I recently discovered that a supplier I thought had folded was still going. After several phone calls he reluctantly agreed to sell me some if I met in a car park which I got to by an hour train and bike ride.

 

He doesn't have a website and won't risk post and thinks exhibitions are a waste of time these days. He then proceeded to moan about lack of sales.

 

I mean what do you say to that?!

 

 

[KeithMacdonald]

Two good examples there from @Hal Nail

 

The Surf Shop in South London just sounds daft - "location, location, location" - must be one of the most basic rules for any business. Go where the customers are.

 

19 minutes ago, Hal Nail said:

I mean what do you say to that?!

 

Not a lot you can say is there? Except in my "day job" I still find there's still a tiny percentage of customers that pay by cash or cheque, don't used credit/debit cards, and don't have an email address, so we can't sign them up for online activity.

 

It seems like there are a few groups/kinds of people that are falling by the wayside, or being left behind by the online digital world. Like all the little social clubs and associations that we used to subscribe to, and paid by cheque. But some of them struggle to get any form of online activity or even simple card processing like Sumup or Square.

[Welly]

^^^

You could have said that you thought he folded!

[Michael Hodgson]

 

1 hour ago, CWJ said:

Does anyone else find they're about 100 times more likely to buy something if the supplier has an online shop?

 

 

Not as such.  I'm more than 100 times more likely to consider buying it if I know it's available, how good it is, what it costs.

I am still happy to send a cheque and wait for the postal system if I want it enough.  An online shop makes it easier of course.

 

Looking at it from the point of view of a trader in a cottage industry, these specialist small suppliers may also be doing a day job, take holidays, suffer sickness etc.  They have the skills and and equipment to do what they do, but don't necessarily have any IT skills.  Given that the railway modelling market is a very small percentage of the population and spread across the country, the only way a small supplier can realistically expect to get many sales is remotely using postal or courier services. 

 

I see four main elements to their system needs

• awareness of the existence of the supplier and what he is offering - probably their biggest problem
• product catalogue/pricing
• enquiries
• ordering/payment

These days you really do need to create a wesbite to achieve the first.   You don't need to understand the web to do this - you can get somebody else to knock that up for you as a one-off and it can remain pretty static . The old method of placing an ad in small print somewhere in a paper magazine just doesn't reach most people, and even then it had to be run regularly over a range of such magazines.  Attending shows or getting an article in some publication is also a big help, but it only reaches a finite audience at a point in time.  People looking for a product have to be able to find it.

 

A web site is also by far the best place to put the second, however if may need to be updated from time to time if new products are introduced, old ones discontinued or prices have to be changed.  So that requires more frequent but still limited input from the trader.

 

The third can be handled by email or old fashioned paper, at times that are convenient to the business, though the website should direct potential customers it is advisable to direct users to the preferred option.  Telephone is also an option, it can be convenient to the customer, but almost certainly inconvenient to the small trader.

 

Doing the last on line makes it easier for the customer.  But by the nature of such businesses their products tend not to be available elesewhere, so a customer who has decided he wants your product will generally accept that payment is by whatever option the supplier prefers, although not everybody still uses cheques, so paypal or direct transfer to a bank account provide an alternative to a full on line ordering system

 

[Peter Eaton]

I find a lot of interesting modelling items can be found on the dreaded Ebay as to 3D printed items, card kits etc enterprising individuals using this medium for products on line & easy payment option & feedback trail.

Just needs a bit then for our support ?

thanks, Peter

[woodenhead]

It no longer needs to be a fully functioning business specific website, there are plenty of options for selling online that provide templates for ecommerce without the need to build and manage your own site from scratch and aimed at cottage industry.

 

Two I can think of straight away is Ebay and Etsy.  Facebook also offers similar but of course a lot of people simply don't like anything associated with Facebook.

 

I cannot imagine doing business with someone these days except through a physical store or via ecommerce so I can use a card payment with some recourse should the trader not supply the item or there be a problem.  My chequebook comes out very occasionally these days.

 

I guess the people who still work like this though are older word of mouth businesses who are happy with the status quo, at the end of the day it's their choice how to run their business but I would be unlikely to deal with them.  The only one I can think of where I might have made an exception would have been Union Mills, but again it's a word of mouth business, other happy customers recommending Colin and he didn't need to go beyond advertising in magazines, the rest was done for him.

[darrel]

There is one cottage manufacturer who only takes cheques. I do not have a cheque book. I had to give my mum the money and get her to send them a cheque. Its a right pain. 

 

[John Isherwood]

3 hours ago, CWJ said:

Morning All,

 

I should start by saying that I love the proliferation of smaller manufacturers who are good enough to sell a vast range of unusual and obscure bits and bobs which, without them, we would have to fashion by hand or do without. So this isn't a criticism of the suppliers, it's a question for their customers.

 

Does anyone else find they're about 100 times more likely to buy something if the supplier has an online shop?

 

I've recently returned to the hobby after a 10-year gap and am surprised to find that while some cottage industries have set up modern websites from which to sell their products, others are still in the era of photocopied price lists and cheque books.  A discussion on the Eileen's Emporium thread got me thinking about this.

 

I'm sure the cost of building and running an online shop is not negligible, but in the post-pandemic age I'd have thought it pretty much essential if you want your stuff to sell well. I for one am not keen on spending money with a supplier who only describes their product briefly (e.g. "whitemetal Class 47 buffers" could be really fine, detailed castings or crude blobs from a 50-year-old mould*), with no photos, and needs me to ring them up during office hours when I'm supposed to be working, giving my card details over the phone (presumably with no security back-up from my bank if anything goes wrong?) and hoping they hear me correctly.  Or worse, having to fill in an order form, hope they work out exactly which variants of which product my handwriting is describing, find my 20-year-old cheque book and post the order to them. If it's the kind of product only made occasionally in batches, rather than off the shelf, I won't know whether my order has even been received until the delivery arrives.

 

I repeat: I'm not saying this to criticise the suppliers, I respect the choices they need to make to balance their overheads with their income. Having said that, the ordering rules some suppliers impose on their customers would suggest that manual phone/postal ordering creates a big workload for them and can be a source of misunderstandings.

 

But sadly the honest truth is that the lack of an online shop puts me off.  Do others feel the same? Is this something which needs to change in order for our much-needed small suppliers to survive?

 

Or am I expecting too much? Are there people who prefer doing things the traditional way?

 

For the record I turn 40 this year, so while possibly below average age for a railway modeller I'm not exactly a Gen-Z youth either!  Nor do I agree with the 'supplier-has-appalling-customer-service-for-not-replying-to-my-email-within-an-hour" brigade; we must cut these manufacturers some slack for running their enterprise in their spare time or with limited resources.

 

Interested to hear what others think!

 

Cheers,

 

Will

 

* this is a fictional example - I have no gripes with any specific product or supplier.

 

You make a fundamental error when you assume that "you want your stuff to sell well".

 

Many / most small traders have full or part-time jobs, quite separate from their model railway activities. Like me, they find that they can receive quite enough business via a minimal on-line presence; word-of-mouth is remarkably effective if your products are good enough.

 

Frankly, if you wish to use these specialist products you will usually have to follow the producers' chosen trading methods - which you may well find to be less than convenient (for you).

 

John Isherwood,

Cambridge Custom Transfers.

 

 

[mudmagnet]

I've very easily set up an online store using 'Sumup' from whom I purchased a card reader to take along to a couple of exhibitions and they provide a straightforward / simple website template onto which my products are populated. This works fine a limited range of products, but as my product range now reaches over a hundred 3D printed items, this does get more difficult to manage. Then do I look at a more bespoke platform, such some of the other small traders utilise. This of course comes at a higher cost both in financial times and also time to firstly populate and then manage.

 

My website takes card payments, for which I pay a small commission, then need to process the order. All works quite smoothly.

 

However, there are quite a few small traders who may well have been trading for years and attending exhibitions, where perhaps their sales at these have been good, yet do not have the time / expertise / interest in setting up an online presence.

 

I too am reluctant to purchase without an online / card payment / PayPal payment method now, unless I've previously seen the products or previously dealt with said supplier.

 

Plus, the other issue is making potential clients aware of your products. Online search engines are pretty useless to be honest, their algorithms dependant on volume traffic, so no often found. Advertising on such platforms as Facebook is hit and miss, so reliant on other means. Ebay is awash with suppliers, but their fees are quite high.

 

Sadly, more and more exhibitions feature less and less small traders, in part due to the costs and also the time. I, like many others, work full time, so attending too many exhibitions presents other issues.

 

In summary though, I would agree with the original question / comment though.

[Wheatley]

What John just said. If I need an XYZ and only one trader makes it but needs a cheque, then I'll write him a cheque and put it in the post. It's not rocket science. I've only ever been burned once and that was when the only way to get anything from a retailer miles away was to write a cheque and put it in the post ("The Railway King" of Sunderland, still owes me a kit for a Mk1 BG from 1982).

 

People need to stop trying to apply box shifter and model shop economics / business 'rules' to cottage manufacturers; a lot of the time they're selling stuff because they needed one, they have the means of production and they either feel magnanimous towards their fellow modellers or they're off-setting the minimum order for a batch of etches (for example) by selling off the surplus ones. They really are doing you a favour, however much that rankles. 

 

A lot of 'proper' traders' websites are a pain in the neck unless you know exactly what you're looking for, and not just model railways; finding anything on Farnells or RS Components sites from the literally thousands of variations on a DIN plug or SPST switch does my head in. Flicking through the Mainly Trains catalogue and ticking things off to write them in the order form was far more pleasant.  

 

 

Edited March 21, 2023 by Wheatley

[CWJ]

Thanks for all your very interesting responses.

 

It's nice to know I'm not alone, but John makes a good point that small suppliers may not be under any pressure to sell large volumes, so they get by happily with phone/mail order business only.

 

Perhaps that will gradually change as the last remaining customers move to electronic banking and use the internet more.

 

Cheers,

 

Will

[CWJ]

26 minutes ago, Wheatley said:

...finding anything on Farnells or RS Components sites from the literally thousands of variations on a DIN plug or SPST switch does my head in.

 

I feel your pain, I've been there too!

[woodenhead]

10 minutes ago, CWJ said:

Thanks for all your very interesting responses.

 

It's nice to know I'm not alone, but John makes a good point that small suppliers may not be under any pressure to sell large volumes, so they get by happily with phone/mail order business only.

 

Perhaps that will gradually change as the last remaining customers move to electronic banking and use the internet more.

 

Cheers,

 

Will

I'd reword that last sentence as "will gradually change as the last remaining offline businesses retire"

 

If offline works for them, as such traders have indicated, then they will more likely stop if it not their main income, the hassle of transforming a business like that would be better done by whoever buys it should the trader sell rather than just close down.

 

But as we have seen with Modelmasters, simply having a web presence is not enough to make a business a good one, in my opinion you hear less complaints about the offline ones because they trade in a particular way where reputation is key.

[PhilH]

1 hour ago, Wheatley said:

What John just said. If I need an XYZ and only one trader makes it but needs a cheque, then I'll write him a cheque and put it in the post. It's not rocket science. 

 

 

That goes back to my point….how do you know that only one trader makes an XYZ without being lucky enough to hear it on the grapevine? That’s why for me an internet presence is almost necessary, to let me know that Johnny One Trader actually makes and markets XYZees (or Zeds)

Edited March 21, 2023 by PhilH

[DaveF]

 

I generally order things on line (including all my everyday shopping) unless the trader is local and I can visit them easily but I can also accept that some small suppliers choose not to have a web presence or do online sales.  It doesn't bother me, I've been ordering things by post or phone for around 55 years and have had fewer problems doing that than I have encountered with online buying.  Giving credit card details over the phone has never given me any problems, posting a cheque is simple too.  The only case of attempted fraud which affected me was when I received a call purporting to be from a bank about an online transaction.  Somehow they had obtained my e mail address and home address but the wrong card number.  It turned out to have been a hack of a website of a reputable company, fortunately the item ordered was a gift from a friend so the hackers got my address and her card details, so they got nowhere.

 

Yesterday I ordered several things, one from a large model railway retailer, others from a railway publisher/bookseller.  Unusually I chose to place the orders by phone as it enabled me to ask a couple of questions at the same time, one about the model railway product I ordered, the other about a likely publication date for a new book.  I could have done that by a writing the questions and sending them as e mails and doing the orders online but it would have taken me longer.

 

I do have to admit that I know a number of people who are uncomfortable speaking on a phone and who prefer to text or email and buy online and who get very worried about fraud. 

 

As some of you know I have a large collection of  my own photos which I am prepared to sell, if someone sees one on flickr or RMWeb they want they can ask me for a copy, as can publishers.  However I am not going to set up a website and payment system as I do not want it to be a real business, though I do pay tax on income from anything I sell. 

 

David

[Tartaruga]

1 hour ago, PhilH said:

That goes back to my point….how do you know that only one trader makes an XYZ without being lucky enough to hear it on the grapevine? That’s why for me an internet presence is almost necessary, to let me know that Johnny One Trader actually makes and markets XYZees (or Zeds)

 

Agreed. I have no local model shops or model railway club as a grapevine. I do belong to a national society and so the only way to ask a question is online! My Dad however still prefers to speak to people via a phone even if he can use a computer.

On the other side I miss the presence of shops/businesses for a bargain. I do shop online for groceries but I still go to supermarkets for the discounted items at the end of day/week. I remember when small businesses or shops, on occasion, would chuck in something extra for free.

[John Isherwood]

2 hours ago, CWJ said:

Perhaps that will gradually change as the last remaining customers move to electronic banking and use the internet more.

 

I doubt it! By then, most of us 'small traders' will be pushing up the daisies!

 

The only field where I foresee new small traders coming to the market is 3D printing - most of those that have sprung up in recent years have been in some way connected to that technology.

 

More to the point - fewer and fewer 'railway modellers' seem prepared to undertake anything more challenging than opening an RTR box. Will there be a market for 'kits and bits',?

 

John Isherwood.

[Rich_F]

My closest model shop is run by two lovely people (husband & wife). I used to go there, however in the last couple of visits when trying to trade in certain items they offered a derisory price. 

 

I showed them a comparable condition item on Rails or Hattons & said I was hoping to "get in the ballpark of xxx pounds (give or take)". They said they don't pay much attention to online retailers & find it too difficult to run a website with inventory.

 

While I hope their shop does well I don't see a long future if that similar attitude is mirrored among other independent small retailers 😔

[wombatofludham]

Looking at this subject from a different tack, where I live I am a good couple of hours from any major exhibition where non-internet small suppliers might be expected to have a stall, and leaving aside the Talyllyn Railway souvenir shop and occasional Hornby stockist, probably a similar drive time from any proper bricks and mortar shops who might stock the kind of knick-knacks I need.  I therefore depend heavily on t'net and if a supplier doesn't even have a static website showing their wares, let alone on-line retailing, I will probably be oblivious to their existence.  I do buy from retailers direct wherever possible, and have also bought direct from small "cottage" outfits who have had a web presence but, rather like the acquaintances David mentioned  earlier, don't like conducting business over the phone, preferring e-mail if needed, although I'm not worried too much about fraud as I will usually do some sort of due diligence on line checks before going to a new supplier.

However, I do get why some suppliers might not want to become a fully fledged business, with all the hassle of getting "on line" to whatever extent and of course, that is their choice. 

[John Isherwood]

6 minutes ago, Weeny Works said:

My closest model shop is run by two lovely people (husband & wife). I used to go there, however in the last couple of visits when trying to trade in certain items they offered a derisory price. 

 

I showed them a comparable condition item on Rails or Hattons & said I was hoping to "get in the ballpark of xxx pounds (give or take)". They said they don't pay much attention to online retailers & find it too difficult to run a website with inventory.

 

While I hope their shop does well I don't see a long future if that similar attitude is mirrored among other independent small retailers 😔

 

Quite possibly, the shop in question may simply not want to be bothered with trade-ins.

 

I can understand why - unless they can support a Hattons / Rails style on-line S/H operation, the small traders will be stuck with used stock which may not sell in the short to medium term, whilst not getting a full retail return on new stock.

 

Traders are under no obligation to accept goods in lieu of payment.

 

John Isherwood.

[Rich_F]

3 minutes ago, cctransuk said:

 

Quite possibly, the shop in question may simply not want to be bothered with trade-ins.

 

I can understand why - unless they can support a Hattons / Rails style on-line S/H operation, the small traders will be stuck with used stock which may not sell in the short to medium term, whilst not getting a full retail return on new stock.

 

Traders are under no obligation to accept goods in lieu of payment.

 

John Isherwood.

 

Fair point. 

 

I was more referring to their stance on running even a basic website with just a stocklist of items they have in their shop. I've purchased items outright from them as well.