cypherman Posted March 12, 2023 Share Posted March 12, 2023 (edited) Hi all, I have just taken delivery of a Hornby Railroad Bagnall 0-4-0 diesel shunter in red. Number R3283. It is second hand from Ebay. But it looks like it has never been out of its box. Everything was still sealed. Any way on testing it ran like a bat out of hell. very smooth but with acceleration that would put a Jaguar to shame. The info I need is to know what the gearing is on this engine. I know the earlier 0-4-0s ran like that. But I thought the later ones including this Bagnall had the later gearing. Or could it be the DC H+M Clipper controller I am using to test it with. Edited March 12, 2023 by cypherman 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Johnster Posted March 12, 2023 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 12, 2023 It's those cab front windows, Marvin the Paranoid Android, pain all down the diodes on my left hand side, life, don't talk to me about life, brain the size of a planet and they ask me to open doors... Can't help sorry, but will be interested in any outcome from this thread as I'm considering a Hornby 0-4-0 'SmokeyJoe family' chassis as a donor for a project, and looking for a way of ensuring that anything I buy is one of the newer less frisky types. What's the slow running like; you said it ran smoothly, and the simplicity of this mech should enable it to do that reasonably well, cheap as chips or not. The first 10,000 years were the worst. Then the next 10,000 years, they were the worst as well. After that I went into a bit of a decline.... 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium cessna152towser Posted March 12, 2023 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 12, 2023 Could be the controller. I have the blue Bagnall, "Satellite" which was split from an iTraveller set. I run it on an H+M 2000 and find it is a nice slow crawler. Only limitation is the short wheelbase so it needs a bit more speed when negotiating pointwork. 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
doctor quinn Posted March 12, 2023 Share Posted March 12, 2023 It could the controller, I have an H&M Clipper that I use for testing, it's just like an on/off switch for American Atlas/Kato locos - full speed or nothing. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cypherman Posted March 12, 2023 Author Share Posted March 12, 2023 (edited) Hi all, Yes that is basically it. The slightest touch on the controller and it is off like a rocket. Nice and smooth just like a Saturn 5 blasting off. This is odd though as I have couple of other Hornby 0-4-0s that run a lot better on the same controller including a Smoky Joe that has had a repaint. Johnster it is smooth as long as you like your engine running at 40mph from the get go. I will dig another controller out and test it again. I have a couple of H+M Duettes and simple Hornby control to try. 14 minutes ago, doctor quinn said: It could the controller, I have an H&M Clipper that I use for testing, it's just like an on/off switch for American Atlas/Kato locos - full speed or nothing. Edited March 12, 2023 by cypherman Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Johnster Posted March 12, 2023 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 12, 2023 24 minutes ago, cypherman said: Johnster it is smooth as long as you like your engine running at 40mph from the get go. Exactly what I want to avoid. The project is a freelance outside cylindered Polly, it's orignial chassis having been pinched to go under a Jouef NB shunter body, but I have other projects lined up if Polly is successful. Slow running is important to me, and it is quite possible that generic 50-year-old cheapo RTR mechs are not the best place to look for it! That said, the original Jouef mech for the NB wasn't the worst I've ever had; if only the loco didn't have that spurious outside framing. Polly's old mech is lining up fairly well as well, currently awaiting the outcome of experiments to provide it with dummy jackshaft drive. This is with a Gaugemaster Power Controller and HH, by the way. I think I am correct in saying that the generic Hornby 0-4-0s and the ex-Dapol L&Y pug are the last remaining RTR locos that employ worm drive direct to a cog on the driven axle, vertically in the case of the pug. One would be interested to see what a currently designed starter set RTR mech with an idler reduction gear would look and perform like, though as the Hornby generics are still turning an honest bob for the company in the starter set role, it is unlikely that they will produce a new one! 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium SteveyDee68 Posted March 13, 2023 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 13, 2023 I suspect the controller … If one of these … Well, perhaps you can move that screw below the dial to the “high resistance” position and that might calm things down … a little. Maybe. 🤔 If one of these … Well, the switch positions shown above will definitely tame the motor a lot more than if set to the other extreme (Low Resistance + Full Wave) which is what SpaceX are currently experimenting with TTBOMK. I have one of these controllers from my late father. It still works. It does do quite well with older motors, with a bit of buzzing. Modern motors don’t like it very much. Then again, it is very nearly as old as I am. 🤐 What will definitely improve the running of your loco no end (from personal experience) is using a cheap (£50 +/-) and cheerful Gaugemaster Combi controller like the one here … (But obviously with wires attaching it to the track and a PSU!) Photos stolen off eBay where these are all for sale at a great variety of prices. Personally, I’d buy something new that you know has been manufacturer tested/certified/guaranteed not to give you an instant perm. Or worse, rictus grin. 💀 There’s been a discussion very recently elsewhere on RMWeb about false expectations of getting first class performance out of brand new models using decades old controller equipment… Good luck; looking forward to seeing the outcome of your Polly bashing - on the appropriate RMWeb thread, of course! HOURS OF FUN!! 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cypherman Posted March 13, 2023 Author Share Posted March 13, 2023 (edited) 14 hours ago, SteveyDee68 said: I suspect the controller … If one of these … Well, perhaps you can move that screw below the dial to the “high resistance” position and that might calm things down … a little. Maybe. 🤔 If one of these … Well, the switch positions shown above will definitely tame the motor a lot more than if set to the other extreme (Low Resistance + Full Wave) which is what SpaceX are currently experimenting with TTBOMK. I have one of these controllers from my late father. It still works. It does do quite well with older motors, with a bit of buzzing. Modern motors don’t like it very much. Then again, it is very nearly as old as I am. 🤐 What will definitely improve the running of your loco no end (from personal experience) is using a cheap (£50 +/-) and cheerful Gaugemaster Combi controller like the one here … (But obviously with wires attaching it to the track and a PSU!) Photos stolen off eBay where these are all for sale at a great variety of prices. Personally, I’d buy something new that you know has been manufacturer tested/certified/guaranteed not to give you an instant perm. Or worse, rictus grin. 💀 There’s been a discussion very recently elsewhere on RMWeb about false expectations of getting first class performance out of brand new models using decades old controller equipment… Good luck; looking forward to seeing the outcome of your Polly bashing - on the appropriate RMWeb thread, of course! HOURS OF FUN!! Hi Stevey, I wish my clipper was as new as yours......... :) This is mine. It does not allow me to change the resistance. Edited March 13, 2023 by cypherman 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium PeterStiles Posted March 13, 2023 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 13, 2023 (edited) It was a few years ago that Hornby attacked the 0-4-0 chassis and threw the Pocket Rocket motor out of the window. I have a couple of new 0-4-0s (including a smokey-joe) and they are reasonable locos that don't zip off into the sunset (i've even DCC'd the Satan's Express loco). If you got it off EBay then you're just as likely to have a ten year old one that has the old mechanism :( However, actually seeing your Clipper... That looks old enough to be one with asbestos in! Edited March 13, 2023 by PeterStiles h>k Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Johnster Posted March 13, 2023 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 13, 2023 Differentiating between the older and post-10-year-old Hornby 0-4-0 chassis is my problem on eBay; most models listed do not specify which chassis is being used and my usual 'recentitsh tooling' indenticication method (if it's got NEM couplings it won't be too bad) is not applicable to these Railroad models. Few even show the listing with the top off. I am fairly happy that my Gaugemaster will be able to control a current issue smokeyjoe chassis reasonably well, but am nervous about wasting money on older models. The answer is of course to order direct from Hornby; new ones are not prohibitively expensive, I think Tarmacadam, which will be fine for the Jouef NB, retails at £35. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Nile Posted March 13, 2023 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 13, 2023 You need to see it with the top off to tell which version it is. The newer motor is fitted with its terminals on top. Old on the left, new on the right. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Il Grifone Posted March 13, 2023 Share Posted March 13, 2023 Resistance controllers need to be matched to the motor and even then don't work very well. The better H &M controllers were variable transformers. The s the motor much better low series resisatnce control or probably even better considering the age of the units a modern solid state device. (Says he who uses a Powermaster and Dublo Marshal 3s. They will tame either Hornby motor. DO NOT USE any TRS mains cables! Their 'use by date' was at least forty years ago. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCB Posted March 14, 2023 Share Posted March 14, 2023 2 hours ago, Il Grifone said: Resistance controllers need to be matched to the motor and even then don't work very well. The better H &M controllers were variable transformers. The s the motor much better low series resisatnce control or probably even better considering the age of the units a modern solid state device. (Says he who uses a Powermaster and Dublo Marshal 3s. They will tame either Hornby motor. DO NOT USE any TRS mains cables! Their 'use by date' was at least forty years ago. Agreed but the H&M Variable Transformers only go down to 5 volts off load, which is about 40 MPH for a Smokey Joe. A Morley which goes down to next to zero volts off load will tame these chassis and make them crawl nicely but the control knob goes from crawl to 40 mph in a very small part of the knob's travel. It looks to me like the later motor has a couple of capacitors and some kind of choke or resistor fitted to the same old can so maybe add resistor or two or maybe a few diodes in opposite parallel. Better still bin it and get a 1960s X04 powered Nellie chassis with Romford Markits wheels and 40:1 or 60:1 Romford gears. I tried to upgrade a Smoky Joe on a couple of occasions and gave up, the chassis flexed too much for Romford gears. One guy posted about adding step down gears on a lay shaft which was pretty cool but its too complicated for me. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Johnster Posted March 14, 2023 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 14, 2023 8 hours ago, Nile said: You need to see it with the top off to tell which version it is. The newer motor is fitted with its terminals on top. Old on the left, new on the right. Thank you Nile; this is exactly the information I needed. And I’m not encouraged much, as the motors and gears look identical, with only the tv suppression and what looks like a resistor being different. How does the newer chassis achieve it’s better slow running? I suspect that all that is actually happening is that voltage to the motor is being restricted by the resistor so that slower starts can take place, but mechanically both chassis are the same. What is actually new about the newer motor? What I think this chassis needs is better gearing (actually it needs a complete retooling, but we all know that ain’t gonna happen), but without a reduction idler there is little room. Nellie is probably easier to gear down with Markits components as DCB suggests. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium PeterStiles Posted March 14, 2023 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 14, 2023 5 hours ago, The Johnster said: actually it needs a complete retooling, but we all know that ain’t gonna happen Well, didn't we see it being retooled in this latest series of Hornby: AMW? There were discussions about the new "Obese B4" and picking a suitable motor to fit? Indications were that this tooling would replace the 0-4-0 in the cheaper sets/models. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Dickerson Posted March 14, 2023 Share Posted March 14, 2023 There was a line to the effect of "it still needs some work" at the end I think - so (with the Magic of TV light flashing away merrily) we shall see what eventually appears. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben B Posted March 14, 2023 Share Posted March 14, 2023 On 12/03/2023 at 17:52, The Johnster said: Exactly what I want to avoid. The project is a freelance outside cylindered Polly, it's orignial chassis having been pinched to go under a Jouef NB shunter body, but I have other projects lined up if Polly is successful. Slow running is important to me, and it is quite possible that generic 50-year-old cheapo RTR mechs are not the best place to look for it! That said, the original Jouef mech for the NB wasn't the worst I've ever had; if only the loco didn't have that spurious outside framing. Polly's old mech is lining up fairly well as well, currently awaiting the outcome of experiments to provide it with dummy jackshaft drive. This is with a Gaugemaster Power Controller and HH, by the way. I think I am correct in saying that the generic Hornby 0-4-0s and the ex-Dapol L&Y pug are the last remaining RTR locos that employ worm drive direct to a cog on the driven axle, vertically in the case of the pug. One would be interested to see what a currently designed starter set RTR mech with an idler reduction gear would look and perform like, though as the Hornby generics are still turning an honest bob for the company in the starter set role, it is unlikely that they will produce a new one! One thing if you're using a Triang Polly/Nellie body, I'm sure I've read somewhere that the reason the venerable tank loco was dropped from the range, and replaced with Smokie Joe et al, was that when Hornby redesigned the chassis for the original Scalextric motor, it would no longer fit the old bodies. Don't know if that still applies, now Hornby have changed the motor. I think its why the old Triang North British shunter gained the exhaust bump, then was replaced with the Barclay 06, to fit the new motor. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Johnster Posted March 14, 2023 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 14, 2023 The freelance Polly has had it's bunker amputated and a new rear cab sheet provided, so some chopping of the new chassis will be needed. It will have a coal bunker on the top of the left hand tank (my colliery engines are all right hand drive, following the Hornby Pecketts). This means that the fireman's (lh) side window will be left as is so he can access the bunker, while the right will be a round window more suitable for such a loco. It may well be named Odin. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Il Grifone Posted March 16, 2023 Share Posted March 16, 2023 (edited) My H & M Powermaster has the Vari-Wave slider which seems to even tame a 'Smokey Joe' - I have one in all over blue plastic*. I wonder if feeding the controller from the 110v side of the transformer I have would improve things still further or just be a waste of effort. * A carpy 3 pole motor of obscure origins and low gearing is going to make slow running a bit lumpy whatever you do. I don't think there is any asbestos inside a Powermaster, but it is not impossible seeing their age and I don't intend to dismantle mine to find out. I suppose I should build myself a nice transistor feedback device, but one I built ages ago worked well enough but the motors tended to overheat with the nasty high frequency chopper waveform. My poor little Rivarossi N scale U.S. 0-4-0 was particularly allergic. One of these - the tender version. She must beat even GWR no.101 as most modelled obscure prototype - I believe there were four of them. https://www.google.com/search All the Nellie variants I have use an X.04 with 14:1 (IIRC) reduction gearing, The Far Eastern efforts undoubtedly costs a fraction of the price of this beast which would explain its demise. Edited March 16, 2023 by Il Grifone Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Rich_F Posted April 18, 2023 RMweb Premium Share Posted April 18, 2023 (edited) On 13/03/2023 at 00:02, SteveyDee68 said: I suspect the controller … If one of these … Well, perhaps you can move that screw below the dial to the “high resistance” position and that might calm things down … a little. Maybe. 🤔 If one of these … Well, the switch positions shown above will definitely tame the motor a lot more than if set to the other extreme (Low Resistance + Full Wave) which is what SpaceX are currently experimenting with TTBOMK. I have one of these controllers from my late father. It still works. It does do quite well with older motors, with a bit of buzzing. Modern motors don’t like it very much. Then again, it is very nearly as old as I am. 🤐 What will definitely improve the running of your loco no end (from personal experience) is using a cheap (£50 +/-) and cheerful Gaugemaster Combi controller like the one here … (But obviously with wires attaching it to the track and a PSU!) Photos stolen off eBay where these are all for sale at a great variety of prices. Personally, I’d buy something new that you know has been manufacturer tested/certified/guaranteed not to give you an instant perm. Or worse, rictus grin. 💀 There’s been a discussion very recently elsewhere on RMWeb about false expectations of getting first class performance out of brand new models using decades old controller equipment… Good luck; looking forward to seeing the outcome of your Polly bashing - on the appropriate RMWeb thread, of course! HOURS OF FUN!! I have the EXACT same Bagnall as the OP. Got it 2nd hand from ebay for £25 inc postage. I also have the EXACT same Gaugemaster Combi controller as the the quoted post. After I cleaned the track with my (very) old Hornby block it crawls even across Insulfrog points while I shunt on my micro layout. Such a revelation for a dirt cheap model! As a side does anyone who does bodyshells for this chassis? While the stock body is fine it is a bit large! Edited April 18, 2023 by Weeny Works 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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