Class 313 EMUs to preservation on retirement?

[SandHutton]

Originally, I understood that 313 201 the first member of the class was to enter preservation at the NRM when the class is withdrawn from the Southern in a couple of months.   I have now heard conflicting reports - one that another example is going to be preserved in its place and another that they are all going to be scrapped. Does anybody with their ear close to the grapevine be able to shed some light on the situation.  I would hate to see them all scrapped.

 

As an integral part of my daily commute I will miss their unique style and also their massive cycle storage area.

 

Cheers

 

Guy

['CHARD]

3 minutes ago, SandHutton said:

their massive cycle storage area

 

...sounds like a very niche reason for preserving something!

 

TBH I would be surprised if a PEP unit of some description hadn't been earmarked for the National Collection, but the inevitable hoary old questions of where and at whose risk raise their heads.  Electric units have a notorious history of disinterest (and ultimately failure) where preservation schemes are concerned. 

[Johann Marsbar]

There's certainly a 315 unit that has entered preservation in the last few months - though its preservation base is rather a long way from where they used to operate - namely the Llanelli & Mynydd Mawr Railway in Wales.

Can't recall seeing anything about a 313 being kept though.

['CHARD]

There has also been talk of a 507 or 508 entering preservation on the Wirral once those fleets are retired. 

 

Again, though, talk is possibly the extent of it. 

[33C]

Whatever happens, preserve the whole train, not just A/the driving ends. Missed opportunities with the 302 and 310.....

[009 micro modeller]

7 hours ago, 'CHARD said:

TBH I would be surprised if a PEP unit of some description hadn't been earmarked for the National Collection

I thought the idea was that it would be a 313 as they were the first dual voltage (25kV AC/750V DC) units to run in the UK (though not globally). Though the general PEP design is significant in other ways. Having grown up with the 313s on the Great Northern inner suburban and North London DC lines (and occasionally the Abbey Line) I’m biased, but I also think if you were only going to keep one then a 313 would be better for mainline running, as obviously the dual voltage capability increases the number of routes it could run on (even if this would mean reinstating some of the AC equipment on the Southern ones).

 

7 hours ago, 33C said:

Whatever happens, preserve the whole train, not just A/the driving ends. Missed opportunities with the 302 and 310.....

This is always a concern for me too. Sort of understandable in the context of a static museum exhibit, if there’s very limited space, but it does mean it can never run again and hasn’t been preserved as a complete unit. And to be honest, the same space argument is hardly ever applied to (for instance) only preserve the locomotive unit of a tender loco.

 

7 hours ago, Johann Marsbar said:

There's certainly a 315 unit that has entered preservation in the last few months - though its preservation base is rather a long way from where they used to operate - namely the Llanelli & Mynydd Mawr Railway in Wales.

Which group is responsible for it? Interestingly I think that’s the same location that the preserved ex-Isle of Wight 1938 tube stock has gone to.

[Johann Marsbar]

9 hours ago, 009 micro modeller said:

Which group is responsible for it? Interestingly I think that’s the same location that the preserved ex-Isle of Wight 1938 tube stock has gone to.

 

Would you believe, the Class 315 Preservation Society.......

https://www.facebook.com/groups/1091372651042776/?locale=en_GB

 

Don't know whether they have a proper website, but their FB page seems to be dairly up to date.

[009 micro modeller]

2 hours ago, Johann Marsbar said:

 

Would you believe, the Class 315 Preservation Society.......

https://www.facebook.com/groups/1091372651042776/?locale=en_GB

 

Don't know whether they have a proper website, but their FB page seems to be dairly up to date.

With both that and the 483 though, it does seem a rather odd location for multiple electric preservation groups to be based.

['CHARD]

2 hours ago, 009 micro modeller said:

With both that and the 483 though, it does seem a rather odd location for multiple electric preservation groups to be based.

 

Without wishing to sound unkind, there's something of the beggars can't be choosers in the world of EMU restoration. 

[adb968008]

3 off Yesterday off to Eastleigh Arlington…

Apologies mad rush so only uploaded it, didnt have time to edit / pretty it..

 

 

Rumours suggest the end is very soon. Final railtour is April 29th, but they could be gone from ordinary frontline service before that date.

[SandHutton]

Sad to see them scrapped but had to happen eventually,  though they've done sterling service.  I think ill contact southern and the nrm and see whats happening with regards to preservation.  But if not its good to see one of the br PEPs (315s) being saved by what looks to be a well organised group.  Maybe it will even run under battery power in the future.

[Revolution Ben]

 

Hi there,

 

It is certainly my understanding that 313201, which is in the adapted BR blue livery with grey doors to satisfy visibility legislation, has been set aside for the national collection.

 

This is because of the significance of the PEPs to the overall story of UK passenger railways.  They were the first dual voltage units and the first to have power doors, and I think there were other areas in which they set new trends.

 

cheers

 

Ben A.

[Northmoor]

On 09/03/2023 at 21:01, 009 micro modeller said:

I thought the idea was that it would be a 313 as they were the first dual voltage (25kV AC/750V DC) units to run in the UK (though not globally). Though the general PEP design is significant in other ways. Having grown up with the 313s on the Great Northern inner suburban and North London DC lines (and occasionally the Abbey Line) I’m biased, but I also think if you were only going to keep one then a 313 would be better for mainline running, as obviously the dual voltage capability increases the number of routes it could run on (even if this would mean reinstating some of the AC equipment on the Southern ones).

This is always a concern for me too. Sort of understandable in the context of a static museum exhibit, if there’s very limited space, but it does mean it can never run again and hasn’t been preserved as a complete unit. And to be honest, the same space argument is hardly ever applied to (for instance) only preserve the locomotive unit of a tender loco.

Two things there, addressing the second first:

If you only preserve one vehicle each from a number of units, why can't they be coupled together?  Surely if they were all in the same place, a 302, 308 and 310 vehicle could all be coupled, braked and operated as a unit?  Yes, it's completely un-prototypical but to explain to the general public what is different and why, you don't need 11/12 vehicles to do that.

In terms of future main line operation, there is SO much more than dual voltage capability to consider.  A loco can probably earn 200 times as much as an EMU as there are so many more opportunities for excursions or regular haulage, whereas a Class 313 can only carry about 150 people at a time and the following day, the number of people who will want to travel again very soon is going to be very small. Look how long it took us to get an AC locomotive onto the main line and they are of considerably more interest for enthusiasts.  You've got to maintain it to mainline standards, so need a pool of spares and people capable of maintaining it.  You'll need drivers passed on the type and that lapses after about six months without use (it happened to a lot of drivers early on in the pandemic). 

[33C]

Save it, whatever it is, now. While you have a chance. Once it's gone, it's gone. Like most of our publicly owned utilities, industry and transport companies.......thanx M.T.

[Michael Hodgson]

Not a class I would ever have chosen for preservation.  Not a class I willingly travelled on.

 

We had 313s on the inner suburban services from Welwyn and Hertford to Moorgate & and Kings Cross from the start of electrification.  Also some were stabled at Letchworth for the all stations service via the Hertford Loop.  Dreadful things, even if you did manage to get a seat they were uncomfortable - especially when the easily unclipped seat cushions had been ejected out of the windows by late-night drunks.  Without exception if one of those rolled in while I was waiting for my morning commute I would let it go and catch the following outer suburban service (they were 312s which had an extra carriage) as that would invariably get to London before the 313.  The lack of proper provision for bikes often meant standing in the doorway against bike with sharp protrusions and oily chains, until bikes were banned.  The only thing the 313s had going in their favour vs the 312 from a passenger point of view was that when the 312s got run down and in need of refurbishment the wind and rain got in through the slam doors. 

 

The voltage change necessary for the Moorgate line took place at Drayton Park, and when they dropped the pan if the DC didn't work of course the unit had to be taken out of service there whereupon a trainload of commuters then had to try and squeeze into the already overloaded following service.  The underground section also necessitated trip cocks, which were tested approaching Finsbury Park.  If the test was a fail the train was unceremoniously diverted to Kings Cross.  Not that the previous arrangement of train stops had been adequate to prevent the disatrous 1975 collision with the tunnel end wall when the line was still the Undergound's Northern City branch.  The BR version took the form of a series of train stops carefully timed to clear only if the train was going slowly enough, which always meant a very slow approach to the terminus.  It was quite interesting to stand on the platform and watch these things retracting with a hiss as the train was almost on them.

[009 micro modeller]

3 hours ago, Northmoor said:

If you only preserve one vehicle each from a number of units, why can't they be coupled together?  Surely if they were all in the same place, a 302, 308 and 310 vehicle could all be coupled, braked and operated as a unit?

This assumes that the brakes, control systems, couplings, gangway connections etc. are compatible between often significantly different types - unless you were suggesting that we alter them to be compatible?

 

3 hours ago, Northmoor said:

In terms of future main line operation, there is SO much more than dual voltage capability to consider.  A loco can probably earn 200 times as much as an EMU as there are so many more opportunities for excursions or regular haulage, whereas a Class 313 can only carry about 150 people at a time

I’m aware of that but in terms of main line operation I was comparing it to an alternative type of PEP unit, rather than a loco. All the other versions are either AC only (Great Eastern and Scotland - 314/315) or DC only (Merseyside - 507/508). On the other hand, the 315s had slightly more capacity as they were 4 coaches, and were slightly more recently built.

 

3 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

Not a class I would ever have chosen for preservation.

 

3 hours ago, 33C said:

Save it, whatever it is, now. While you have a chance. Once it's gone, it's gone.

From the perspective of whether there should be one in the National Collection, I’d suggest that the relevant consideration is whether it represents a significant step in British railway history (which arguably it does, and not just because of the dual voltage aspect), not whether people especially like them. Similarly the Pacers are an important part of railway history, yet almost universally loathed prior to withdrawal (as diesel units they are more useful to working preserved lines than 313s, but that’s a slightly different discussion).

 

I think on a global scale they are not the first dual AC overhead/DC third rail units as there may have been some in the US previously, but they were in Britain. However part of the significance of this in Britain is that the subsequent application of this technology elsewhere made Thameslink and other cross-London electric services possible. Similarly isn’t it the overall construction of the PEPs that makes them significant, rather than power doors (which had been done on London Underground previously)?

 

3 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

Without exception if one of those rolled in while I was waiting for my morning commute I would let it go and catch the following outer suburban service (they were 312s which had an extra carriage) as that would invariably get to London before the 313. 

Surely this is still an inherent, even deliberate, part of the service pattern, regardless of what stock is used (although in a slight variation, at my local station the slow Moorgate service is currently timed to arrive a few minutes after the outer suburban to Kings Cross)?

 

I remember that at Drayton Park the lights inside the train would generally go out for a few seconds as the voltage was changed.

[adb968008]

On 13/03/2023 at 22:45, 009 micro modeller said:

 

 

I remember that at Drayton Park the lights inside the train would generally go out for a few seconds as the voltage was changed.

replaced by todays modern class 700 equivalent where at City Thameslink you have the silent hiss of 3rd rail interupted by the sound of a metal lump crashing onto the roof replaced by the AC hum.

 

 

[009 micro modeller]

7 hours ago, adb968008 said:

replaced by todays modern class 700 equivalent where at City Thameslink you have the silent hiss of 3rd rail interupted by the sound of a metal lump crashing onto the roof replaced by the AC hum.

 

 

Yes, the Moorgate ones that replaced the 313s are 717s though, 700s are outer suburban.

[roythebus1]

The GE DC stock had power operated sliding doors, as did the LMS Merseyside stock and the Glossop 1500v dc units. And the Waterloo & city. The 313s weren't the first with those by a long way.

[melmerby]

According to wikipedia 313201 wont be part of the national collection because it is in far from original condition, not being dual voltage anymore and different seating arrangements.

The NR test unit 313121 has been selected instead as it is more original.

[37114]

6 hours ago, melmerby said:

According to wikipedia 313201 wont be part of the national collection because it is in far from original condition, not being dual voltage anymore and different seating arrangements.

The NR test unit 313121 has been selected instead as it is more original.

According to the latest issue of Rail Express that is correct 

[phil-b259]

7 hours ago, melmerby said:

According to wikipedia 313201 wont be part of the national collection because it is in far from original condition, not being dual voltage anymore and different seating arrangements.

The NR test unit 313121 has been selected instead as it is more original.

 

Given wikipedia also states...

 

The unit was repainted into Network Rail's yellow house colours and internally refurbished at Alstom's Wembley Intercity Depot, to include a new driving desk, technician's workstation, kitchen and toilet facilities, and the necessary ERTMS equipment.

 

...you do wonder about just how that unit can be said to be more authentic as a representation of a commuter train.

 

OK so 313201 might not have original seating but it DOES have a full compliment of seating and no messing facilities in it. Granted the dual voltage thing is an issue as the rest of the 313s with 25KV equipment are long gone but even so...

[5944]

8 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

 

Given wikipedia also states...

 

The unit was repainted into Network Rail's yellow house colours and internally refurbished at Alstom's Wembley Intercity Depot, to include a new driving desk, technician's workstation, kitchen and toilet facilities, and the necessary ERTMS equipment.

 

...you do wonder about just how that unit can be said to be more authentic as a representation of a commuter train.

 

OK so 313201 might not have original seating but it DOES have a full compliment of seating and no messing facilities in it. Granted the dual voltage thing is an issue as the rest of the 313s with 25KV equipment are long gone but even so...

313121 is an odd choice. Yes, it's got quite a lot of the original seats inside still, but I understand the Railway Heritage Designation Advisory Board were planning to acquire enough seats from a class 315 to fit out a class 313. The mods inside from what I recall are all easily reversible. The cab desk is very different though.

 

Although they're called dual voltage units, everything runs from 750V DC supply, either from the third rail shoes or from the output of the transformer. There's a changeover switch on each motor coach to swap between the shoes and the transformer output. 

[phil-b259]

2 hours ago, 5944 said:

313121 is an odd choice. Yes, it's got quite a lot of the original seats inside still, but I understand the Railway Heritage Designation Advisory Board were planning to acquire enough seats from a class 315 to fit out a class 313. The mods inside from what I recall are all easily reversible. The cab desk is very different though.

 

Although they're called dual voltage units, everything runs from 750V DC supply, either from the third rail shoes or from the output of the transformer. There's a changeover switch on each motor coach to swap between the shoes and the transformer output. 

planing for something - actually doing something is quite another….

 

As we front line folk know only too well the railway is very good at making plans - less than brilliant at carrying them out, particularly when there is a big time lag between the two.

 

As such it wouldn’t surprise me that by the time NR are finished with their 313 either the seats taken from a 315 will have been lost / damaged / etc or someone will have plain forgotten to reserve any in the first place

[adb968008]

On 16/03/2023 at 07:10, 009 micro modeller said:

Yes, the Moorgate ones that replaced the 313s are 717s though, 700s are outer suburban.

Just had my first experience riding a 717 today.
 

As side of the cab front, number of carriages, I’m struggling to find any differences with a 700. I’m not seeing much in a 707 either for that matter.

Edited March 18, 2023 by adb968008