Cows in cattle wagons - how arranged?

[TravisM]

I'm reading this thread with interest and it reminded me of a piece I read years ago about livestock carried in the US.  I'm not sure if the same rules apply here but it stated that livestock, apart from pigs must be rested after 12 hours.  I'm sure the journey times for cattle, sheep etc, here in the UK was much less than 12 hours.  Pigs on the other hand, so long as they can lay down, could continue their journey.  Up until the mid 90's (I think), Union Pacific used to run a pig train from either Colorado or Utah to Los Angeles, and they say that you could smell it minutes before it arrived 🤢🤢🤢

Edited March 12, 2023 by jools1959
Additional info

[kitpw]

Whilst reading around the question of how cattle were accomodated in wagons, I came across William M‘Combie M.P whose book  'Cattle & Cattle Breeders' (1869) has some interesting information about shipping cattle by sea and by rail. I've quoted (and edited) below from chapter 3 'The Cattle Trade then and Now' which can be found in full at https://www.gutenberg.org/files/22520/22520-h/22520-h.htm#noteref3. I particularly like the reference to the Caledonian cattle-traffic manager at Aberdeen which makes the whole activity somehow more personal and real.

 

"The owners of the Aberdeen steamers have always been anxious to accommodate their customers; and about twelve years ago they raised an insurance fund for the protection of the shippers. They laid past one shilling for every beast they shipped to meet deaths and accidents... The cattle go well by sea when the weather is moderate, but in rough weather they are safer by rail... I should most seriously advise the Railway Company to adopt some method of insurance, to avoid the unseemly squabbles that are daily occurring with the senders of live cattle and dead meat...The method of transit is an important subject to the owners of the cattle, to the landowners, and to the consumers... I cannot leave this subject without noticing Scott, the cattle-traffic manager of the Caledonian Company at Aberdeen, and John Henry, the cattle-traffic manager of the Aberdeen and London Steam Navigation Company—men who deserve to wear a better coat, and who have done everything in their power for the interest of the senders of cattle. I believe there is difficulty in avoiding causes of complaint at all times where there are so many servants, and the senders of cattle are sometimes themselves to blame. I have never myself lost a beast by rail; I prepare my cattle for their journey before they start from home. My heavy cattle are turned out three different times at least before they are sent to rail. I walk them in a lea field: the first day they are put out four hours; I then give them a day to rest; turn them out again on the second day and increase the distance, and they come quite fresh out of the trucks at London. What can an owner of cattle expect but that some will go down if he take his cattle six, eight, or ten miles without their ever having left the stall for five or eight months before, and put them on to rail? Many hundreds of good oxen have been lost in this way, or crushed and bruised. Cattle when tied up are kept in an unnatural state; they often take founder when at the stall as a consequence, and sometimes paralysis; but such moderate exercise as I have described tends to bring them back to their natural state. I have often been asked the question by those who had seen my Christmas market cattle—"How is it that your beasts are so good upon their legs compared with others?" The first day after the cattle are put out for four hours they will not look so well, and will return to the stalls very much fatigued; but on the second and third days of their exercise they will recover their wonted appearance. They will walk eight or ten miles in a morning and go fresh into the truck, and on reaching their destination will come out and stand well up in the market."

[stewartingram]

2 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

Irish shipment animals were one reason why certain stations were retained for cattle traffic especially at the English ports which dealt with the ships arriving from Ireland.  I don't know when the live cattle traffic ceased to pass by rail but one of the last live animal imports from Ireland to be handled by rail were donkeys coming in via Fishguard and then forwarded, in cattle wagons, to Reading.

Were they going to somewhere in the hils of Yorkshire/Lancashire? Toa mill making donkey jackets?

 

Ok, I've got mine on & leaving....

[Wickham Green too]

Gotta keep them warm somehow ........ but I doubt if they were as colourful as the jackets dogs seem to wear nowadays.

[The Johnster]

1 hour ago, kitpw said:

I cannot leave this subject without noticing Scott, the cattle-traffic manager of the Caledonian Company at Aberdeen, and John Henry, the cattle-traffic manager of the Aberdeen and London Steam Navigation Company—men who deserve to wear a better coat, and who have done everything in their power for the interest of the senders of cattle.

 

Men who deserve to wear better coats; I like that!

[Buhar]

9 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

(It's no coincidence the the road that runs parallel to the Great Western to the west of the Caversham Road bridge in Reading is Abattoirs Road, though awkwardly the cattle dock was on the other side of the line. The cattle market was adjacent, but I think accessed from Great Knollys Street.)

I left Reading many years ago, but would Cow Lane not have helped in crossing under the line?

[Michael Hodgson]

I've not been to Cow Lane, but Cowcross Street is the road leading from London Undersground's Faringdon Station to Smithfield market.  If the cattle had been fattened for the market, they had to use the Widened Lines.  😁

[Compound2632]

2 hours ago, Buhar said:

I left Reading many years ago, but would Cow Lane not have helped in crossing under the line?

 

Cow Lane is further to the west, forming a rat- (cow-) run between the Oxford and Caversham Roads, with bridges under the GW main line and under the west curve onto the Berks & Hants. Brunel had taken the name at face value and built a bridge that was barely more than a cattle creep which became the bane of local motor traffic until its complete rebuilding as part of the new station works a few years ago.

[Welchester]

13 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

So, for the industrial West Midlands c. 1902, I suspect I should be looking at beef cattle en route to the slaughterhouse. (It's no coincidence the the road that runs parallel to the Great Western to the west of the Caversham Road bridge in Reading is Abattoirs Road, though awkwardly the cattle dock was on the other side of the line. The cattle market was adjacent, but I think accessed from Great Knollys Street.) There would be considerable competition from American beef imported through Liverpool - carried in refrigerator meat vans. But there would also, I'm sure, by some trans-Brummagen dairy cattle traffic between the green pastures of Cheshire and Staffordshire, and those of Warwickshire, Worcestershire, Gloucestershire, and Herefordshire, some of which would come the Midland's way, in despite of the best efforts of the LNWR and GWR traffic canvassers.

 

I wonder where the principal cattle markets of the West Midlands were at this period?

Gloucester’s cattle market was adjacent to the Midland station. 

[melmerby]

On 10/03/2023 at 09:49, Compound2632 said:

This thread has kept remarkably clear of BS but now you're just milking it...

In the street song 'Martin said to his Man'

The line "I saw a maid milk a bull, every pull a bucketful"

[phil_sutters]

While on the subject of cattle in transit, at the risk of being chucked off RMweb for a heretical enquiry about road transport, has anyone seen any photos of road cattle wagons from the 1920s, or earlier? I  have seen one or two from the US, where there were distances from farm to rail depots that were perhaps too far to walk cattle. I am aware that cattle drives did take place over long distances at times.

Edited March 13, 2023 by phil_sutters

[melmerby]

13 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

One misty, moisty, morning,
when cloudy was the weather,
there I met an old man,
clothed all in leather.
Clothed all in leather,
with a cap under his chin.
How do you do?
And how do you do?
And how do you do again?

On Steeleye Span's Parcel of Rogues (based on a nursery rhyme.)

[melmerby]

As regards tethering of animals the GWR appendix of 1936 says that all bulls, polled or not must be tethered whilst in transist, with a halter around head or neck.

Any other cattle sharing the wagon, unless partioned off, must also be tethered.

[The Stationmaster]

5 hours ago, Buhar said:

I left Reading many years ago, but would Cow Lane not have helped in crossing under the line?

Cow Lane was originally just a track from Battle Farm under the two railway bridges to pasture land by the river. 

[Mikkel]

21 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

It's no coincidence the the road that runs parallel to the Great Western to the west of the Caversham Road bridge in Reading is Abattoirs Road, though awkwardly the cattle dock was on the other side of the line. The cattle market was adjacent, but I think accessed from Great Knollys Street.

 

Some time ago I looked into cattle markets for a possible layout. Here are the Reading arrangements, with the cattle dock one side and the market on the other:

 

 

 

Reading 1956

 

Edited March 13, 2023 by Mikkel

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, Mikkel said:

Reading 1956

 

Typical milling around without apparent sense of direction.

 

EDIT: the cows that is, not your layout planning.

Edited March 13, 2023 by Compound2632

[Compound2632]

8 hours ago, melmerby said:

On Steeleye Span's Parcel of Rogues (based on a nursery rhyme.)

 

I have it from memory from a book of nursery rhymes I had when very young, much of which I can recite by heart!

Edited March 13, 2023 by Compound2632

[phil_sutters]

The SDJR's Highbridge Wharf and Highbridge Cattle Market were close neighbours. I have yet to work out how the beasties got from the cattle dock to the market. There didn't seem to be a pathway where the coal yard sidings end north of the sluice gate bridge. I can only assume that they were herded out onto what is now the A38. This map from NLS has been annotated to show the area and features. https://maps.nls.uk/index.html

 

[phil_sutters]

58 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Typical milling around without apparent sense of direction.

 

EDIT: the cows that is, not your layout planning.

At least this lot have some idea of their destinations! 

 

 

Cattle don't have smart phones.

 

Edited March 13, 2023 by phil_sutters

[Morello Cherry]

A couple of things from digging further into the Johnson book on the WLLR.

 

Manure is the second biggest substance carried after coal/coke. 51 tons of coal, 45 tons on manure. (1903).

 

In 1951 the breakdown of livestock traffic in wagons is:

 

Local to branch: 109 - ie just to Welshpool

Through: 148 (out) 18 (in)

 

So depending on your line, where it is and when it is - you might well have local as well as through traffic.

 

I've also found some data in another book (Westmoreland Agriculture 1800-1900) for animals through Kendal market c1870 and that the market only succeeded because of the railway which could give you an idea for average market day loads.

 

Bulls: 72

Cattle: 1817

Calves: 6

Goats: 56

Sheep and Lamb: 18,446

 

Tolls charged by LNWR: 1/2d for sheep, 1d for calves, 2d for cattle, 3d for bulls.

 

 

[St Enodoc]

On 12/03/2023 at 09:36, billbedford said:

 

Have you ever heard of someone suffocating in a tent?

No but when I was in the Scouts the excitement was intense.

[Michael Hodgson]

14 minutes ago, Morello Cherry said:

Tolls charged by LNWR: 1/2d for sheep, 1d for calves, 2d for cattle, 3d for bulls.

 

So at what age did cows and bulls start lying about their age to get away with a child ticket?

[Morello Cherry]

When they start getting the horn(s)?

[Compound2632]

34 minutes ago, Morello Cherry said:

I've also found some data in another book (Westmoreland Agriculture 1800-1900) for animals through Kendal market c1870 and that the market only succeeded because of the railway which could give you an idea for average market day loads.

 

Bulls: 72

Cattle: 1817

Calves: 6

Goats: 56

Sheep and Lamb: 18,446

 

Tolls charged by LNWR: 1/2d for sheep, 1d for calves, 2d for cattle, 3d for bulls.

 

Presumably this was a weekly market? Assuming that's the case, an average of 35 cattle and 350 sheep per week, though there will have been considerable seasonal variation. It's interesting that the proportion of sheep to cattle is not far off that on a hill farm with which I am familiar about 10 miles away. I expect that then as now, in that area, milk provided farmers with a steady year-round income while the income from sheep - lambs away for fattening and fleeces to Bradford* - came maybe twice a year.

 

*In the 1870s. Now the lambs go to Bradford and it's a struggle to get a worthwhile price for fleeces. 

[Michael Hodgson]

5 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

*In the 1870s. Now the lambs go to Bradford and it's a struggle to get a worthwhile price for fleeces. 

Yes, a Yorkshire farmer I know told me a few years ago that they actually lose money on the wool.  The sheep have to be sheared in spring to avoid disease, so they have a group of Aussies going round from farm to farm doing the work, but the money from the fleeces was less than it costs to pay the shearers.  Watched these blokes doing it - obviously very hard work.

Edited March 13, 2023 by Michael Hodgson
correction