Bulleid Tavern Car in pre 1957 Livery (and condition?)

[Mallard60022]

Bit of a saga here so apologies from the start.

 

Recently I acquired a set of six, very well made Southern Pride Bulleid Coaches in Blood and Custard Livery. Apart from one or two very small cosmetic marks, they really are in top condition. I've never seen these SP Kits built in this era's livery. 

Pictures available if required, but see below first please.

Two of the Coaches are:

a Tavern Car;

a Composite Restaurant Car.

The Restaurant Car has been modified as per 1951 rebuild. That's useful for me in some ways.

The Tavern Car is as per pre 1951 I believe, having the full Brickwork and Beams style Livery with no detail modifications.

 

The reason I'm posting this here is thus.

I can possibly run these in a Train as a 'one off' , photo shoot style, per 1951, or I can make a compromise that suits my timescale of 1958 through to 1964/5 SR WOEML to Exeter.

HOWEVER, before I do any of that I'd rather see if anyone would like to have the Tavern (and maybe the Restaurant Composite Saloon) in the Livery as it is/they are, and I would keep the other 4 Coaches, which are: 2 standard Bulleid Brakes, Composite and an 'Open' that should be a Composite, according to the Roof Vent positions!    SORTED THANKS. 

The existing Open should be a Composite, but I'm replacing the Roof and creating an Open so I have one in maroon and Cream.

I know this isn't a selling page, so I would like to see if an arrangement could be made, should anyone want this Coach/these Coaches, as they are now, BEFORE I hack one of them to change it forever!

If Graham wants to delete this post then, please send me a private PM.

 

Thanks

Phil

 

Edited March 8, 2023 by Mallard60022
Two Coaches have found a good home; excellent.

[bécasse]

Hang on! I remember seeing a tavern car in the "brickwork" livery complete with inn sign. I lived at Hither Green so rarely got to see SWD trains as a nipper but I remember that my father was working helping to build a new railway building at Andover Junction and he took me with him one day and that is the most likely occasion that I saw one (or quite possibly several). I remember seeing the Britannia "Alfred the Great" on the same occasion (funny how these things stick in one's memory) and I think that that was only on the SR briefly so should provide a date.

[keefer]

Don't know enough about the coaches to know if this helps but Robert Carroll has a couple of pics on Flickr:

S7899_The-George-and-Dragon_30-7-49 by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

S7893S_15-8-57 by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

[Michael Hodgson]

I always thought the tavern car was an eccentric idea that some marketing type must have dreamed up, a;though I can see there would have been a market for it.  I had a colleague who always aimed to catch one particular train home from Liverpool Street as he was one of regulars in the bar. 

 

From what I've read of this vehicle,  it seems the brickwork was a fairly robust wallpaper.  How long woud this have lasted in practice, especially if they put it through a carraige washing plant using the nasty cleaning chemicals of the period like Exmover which even painted surfaces didn't like?  I don't think the quality of vinyls used for modern liveries would have been available back then.

[Joseph_Pestell]

26 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

I always thought the tavern car was an eccentric idea that some marketing type must have dreamed up, a;though I can see there would have been a market for it.  I had a colleague who always aimed to catch one particular train home from Liverpool Street as he was one of regulars in the bar. 

 

From what I've read of this vehicle,  it seems the brickwork was a fairly robust wallpaper.  How long woud this have lasted in practice, especially if they put it through a carraige washing plant using the nasty cleaning chemicals of the period like Exmover which even painted surfaces didn't like?  I don't think the quality of vinyls used for modern liveries would have been available back then.

 

Certainly strange to our eyes in an era of very standardised fixed set trains. But in reality only a continuation of many trains around the network for regular well-heeled commuters such as the "Club Trains" from Manchester to Southport and Blackpool. I think that the first of these dated from late Victorian times.

I lived and worked for a while in Moffat. When the branch there was still open, it had one through train to Glasgow each day (reversal at Beattock Jct) with special rolling stock.

[Mallard60022]

These are the two I was mumbling about. Now taken.

Phil

[Wickham Green too]

8 hours ago, keefer said:

Don't know enough about the coaches to know if this helps but Robert Carroll has a couple of pics on Flickr: ...

 

S7893S_15-8-57 by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

Certainly looked better in blood & custard brick and plaster than in a plain colour ..... but what plain colour is this ?  It seems to have waist lining which was never (?) applied to green stock but why would it be in plain red - of some hue or other ?

[keefer]

@Wickham Green too didn't notice that!

There are other pics in the same album of other Bulleid coaches. I thought they were perhaps maroon with a simplified single yellow/black lining, possibly due to a higher window line.

BUT notice that the 'lining' is missing from the doors - so all i can think of is that some coaches had a raised strip/band at waist height and it's the light/shadow on that strip that gives the impression of lining (and the coaches are plain green)

Compare this view of Sc1500S in proper BR fully-lined maroon:

Sc1500S_LeedsCity_9-67 by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

 

There definitely seems to be a raised waist-strip (but not on the doors)

 

Edited March 9, 2023 by keefer

[John Isherwood]

34 minutes ago, keefer said:

BUT notice that the 'lining' is missing from the doors - so all i can think of is that some coaches had a raised strip/band at waist height and it's the light/shadow on that strip that gives the impression of lining (and the coaches are plain green)

 

Definitely.

 

CJI.

[Wickham Green too]

The panel joins appeared on many Bulleid coaches when they were re-sheeted in later years. The Tavern Kitchen Cars received green livery from 1957, when they were only about eight years old, and were rebuilt two or three years later - when I would have expected panel lines to appear !!?!

[Graham_Muz]

The advent of the rib to protect the panel joint to prevent water ingress rather than strengthening (did not apply to doors) is a bit of a nightmare on the tavern sets in particular as it varied from coach to coach as to when it was applied; and when applied it was only where the horizontal join was present so the later Diagram 2668 Rebuilt Kitchen Buffet Car had a different panel arrangement at the buffet end so only half the side got the rib.

 

The other area to note is that solebar skirt also bore signs of either repair and or a rib added.

Edited March 9, 2023 by Graham_Muz

[Graham_Muz]

16 hours ago, Wickham Green too said:

Certainly looked better in blood & custard brick and plaster than in a plain colour ..... but what plain colour is this ?  It seems to have waist lining which was never (?) applied to green stock but why would it be in plain red - of some hue or other ?

 

The are in BR(S) Green. 

[Ian Hargrave]

On 07/03/2023 at 20:18, bécasse said:

Hang on! I remember seeing a tavern car in the "brickwork" livery complete with inn sign. I lived at Hither Green so rarely got to see SWD trains as a nipper but I remember that my father was working helping to build a new railway building at Andover Junction and he took me with him one day and that is the most likely occasion that I saw one (or quite possibly several). I remember seeing the Britannia "Alfred the Great" on the same occasion (funny how these things stick in one's memory) and I think that that was only on the SR briefly so should provide a date.

1951 “Alf” did service on the Belle too. 
 

Which brings us neatly to ask a pertinent question. Is it possible to use Bachmann’s new Bulleid tooling to produce a “special” ? 

Edited March 9, 2023 by Ian Hargrave
Adding text

[Mallard60022]

This Tavern and the Diner have gone to live in Australia. Glad they have found a good home.

Phil

[SRman]

1 hour ago, Mallard60022 said:

This Tavern and the Diner have gone to live in Australia. Glad they have found a good home.

Phil

 And here they are, posed with some of the earlier Bachmann Bulleid coaches which are slowly receiving flush glazing.

Thanks Phil. 👍👍

 

Edited April 13, 2023 by SRman

[Andy Kirkham]

I've sometimes thought it would be a good project for a heritage railway to create a tavern car, if there was a suitable donor Bulleid vehicle. Although they were derided in their time, it's something that might appeal to the non-enthusiast visitor.

[JohnR]

29 minutes ago, Andy Kirkham said:

I've sometimes thought it would be a good project for a heritage railway to create a tavern car, if there was a suitable donor Bulleid vehicle. Although they were derided in their time, it's something that might appeal to the non-enthusiast visitor.

 

Probably easier to do with a Mark 1, given its only going to be superficially a Tavern Car.

[Wickham Green too]

Once the novelty wore off - about five minutes - it would be about as popular as the originals were !

[Mallard60022]

6 minutes ago, Wickham Green too said:

Once the novelty wore off - about five minutes - it would be about as popular as the originals were !

Without Windows I suppose it might be OK for Booze sessions at night! Maybe even as just a static Bar!

P