Is Signaling one of the most overlooked or at least intentionally simplified parts of the layout?

[Nearholmer]

I have a pet hypothesis that scenery killed-off signalling on model railways.

 

In the beginning, it was seen as integral to the hobby, a model railway being track, signals, trains, stations, and barely anything else. This article appears in the very first edition of the very first model railway magazine, although the signals chosen to illustrate the opening paragraphs seem a bit out of kilter with the period under discussion.

 

Thereafter, there was much talk of signalling, including people writing in to seek advice about how to signal layouts consisting of tinplate track in the most unlikely formations - they cared about this stuff more than they cared about scale fidelity. There is a very good article in one early edition about how to achieve interlocking using a slide frame made from old piano keys, and string!

 

So it went on until the late 1930s, when foliage, rolling hills, and thatched cottages began to creep in as subjects, and by the 1950s everyone except a few old-school 0 gaugers who didn’t believe in ballasted track wanted to create a miniature landscape, and signals got relegated to scenic props, and then almost forgotten.

 

Its good to see that in the past c20 years it’s slowly begun to get taken seriously again.

 

(I may have simplified history a bit, but only a bit)

 

 

[Nick C]

4 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

And requiring some good co-ordination of the fingers on both hands when sending it on two blocks bells simultaneously

I can imagine! Not possible on my line as at both intermediate boxes the two are at opposite ends of the box (built into the token instruments)

[TheSignalEngineer]

On 02/03/2023 at 18:52, TheSignalEngineer said:

Not got access to my signalling album at the moment but I'm sure I have a picture of probably the last in use in the Birmingham area. It was at Kings Norton and survived into being worked from the Shunt Frame after commissioning of Saltley PSB. It may have survived until the box was finally closed. I will try to scan and post tomorrow.

Found the Midland one I was looking for. 

Taken from between the switch blades. Pulling the lever moved the rod away from me. There is a roller in the middle of the stretcher which follows the slot as the Z-plate moves driving the switches from right to left. The switches are locked when the roller is in the straight part of the slot. The points are detected locked by the movement of the small scale-beam crank attached to the Z-plate. The link moves the slot in the detector slide out of alignment when the mechanism starts to move and resumes its aligned position when the movement is completed. There isn't a date on the picture but I did jobs there in 1976 and 1979. I think the latter was when it was converted to power operation from Saltley.

Edited March 3, 2023 by TheSignalEngineer
Date comment added

[TheSignalEngineer]

8 hours ago, Clive Mortimore said:

Eric did suggest the 4 disc shunt signal be placed on the right hand side of the down line.

The reason being that if it were  standard six-foot anything above 3 arms will clash with carriage footboards.

[Michael Hodgson]

6 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

And requiring some good co-ordination of the fingers on both hands when sending it on two blocks bells simultaneously

Much more so when closing  where section is locked by the block in one direction but not in the other (5-5-7 and 7-5-5).

Done by sending 7- with one hand, -5-5 with both hands then -7 with the other hand.  The cacophony when they respond simultaneously but of course not quite in synchronisation has to be heard to be believed.

[5BarVT]

11 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

Thereafter, there was much talk of signalling, including people writing in to seek advice about how to signal layouts consisting of tinplate track in the most unlikely formations - they cared about this stuff more than they cared about scale fidelity. There is a very good article in one early edition about how to achieve interlocking using a slide frame made from old piano keys, and string!

 

So it went on until the late 1930s, when foliage, rolling hills, and thatched cottages began to creep in as subjects, and by the 1950s everyone except a few old-school 0 gaugers who didn’t believe in ballasted track wanted to create a miniature landscape, and signals got relegated to scenic props, and then almost forgotten.

 

Its good to see that in the past c20 years it’s slowly begun to get taken seriously again.

Thank you for that insight.  I feel much better about the likely lack of scenery on my layout. I’ll be happy putting signals in first.

Good job there’s room for all in this hobby with varied interests and goals.

Paul.

[Peter Kazmierczak]

At least one person understood my last joke..

Anyway, after trying to create the bits the rodding runs through (rodding stools? - they must have a name) Im in the midst of fitting them to the layout. Tried match sticks - they split. Tried card - just disintegrates into layers. So now using wire. Will start a new thread so as not to clutter this one.

 

So ding, ding, ding, ding.   Ding, ding, ding, ding. Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding for any LMR Midland Lines fans...

[The Stationmaster]

38 minutes ago, Peter Kazmierczak said:

At least one person understood my last joke..

Anyway, after trying to create the bits the rodding runs through (rodding stools? - they must have a name) Im in the midst of fitting them to the layout.

Let's try this although the smaller pics are blow ups from the firast one so not brilliant but the best I could find in  hurry!

 

The first picture shows a simple rodding run including a compensator (the crank thing) which reverses the direction in which the rod moves when the operating lever is pulled.  This is done to equalise expansion and contraction in the run and also, where needed, to reverse the direction in which the rod moves.  

 

The rod in this case is what is known as channel rodding - it is an inverted U shape - it moves on rollers which within the roller assembly - known variously as rodding rollers, point rodding rollers, rodding run rollers and whatever else some people have called them over the years.  These particular rollers are to the British standard pattern used, in some detail form or another, by everyone except the GWR and BR WR (until the latter ran out of Western style parts).

 

The rollers are held in position by stools.  In this case they are a modern concrete style although similar to some of the earlier concrete styles but the GWR - if no one else - used an earlier style of concrete stool until changing sometime in the late 1930s.  But - like everyone else - prior to the use of concrete the GWR used wooden stools although in some cases it, like various other companies, also probably used cast metal stools with 'legs' which extended into the ground to keep the stool in position.

 

Using wood is quick and cheap but it will eventually rot;  concrete costs more but has a much longer life.  The whole idea of the stool is to keep rollers firmly in position and make the rodding work smoothly.  If stools badly deteriorate the rodding can lift when the lever is operated making the Signalman's job much harder and potentially putting things out of adjustment

 

 

Rodding Roller

 

 

Stool

 

 

Modelu do various rodding run components including very nice looking concrete stools - which they strangely describe as 'concrete blocks'

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[melmoth]

14 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

I have a pet hypothesis that scenery killed-off signalling on model railways.

 

In the beginning, it was seen as integral to the hobby, a model railway being track, signals, trains, stations, and barely anything else. This article appears in the very first edition of the very first model railway magazine, although the signals chosen to illustrate the opening paragraphs seem a bit out of kilter with the period under discussion.

 

Thereafter, there was much talk of signalling, including people writing in to seek advice about how to signal layouts consisting of tinplate track in the most unlikely formations - they cared about this stuff more than they cared about scale fidelity. There is a very good article in one early edition about how to achieve interlocking using a slide frame made from old piano keys, and string!

 

So it went on until the late 1930s, when foliage, rolling hills, and thatched cottages began to creep in as subjects, and by the 1950s everyone except a few old-school 0 gaugers who didn’t believe in ballasted track wanted to create a miniature landscape, and signals got relegated to scenic props, and then almost forgotten.

 

Its good to see that in the past c20 years it’s slowly begun to get taken seriously again.

 

(I may have simplified history a bit, but only a bit)

 

 

 

What I think you've described is basically the paradigm shift in modelling railways, from a state where the aim was prototypically accurate operation of a railway (or as close as possible), often using trains that were no more than vaguely representative of the real thing, to the situation where ever increasing fidelity to the prototype (particularly regarding locomotives) accompanies a more impressionistic approach to operation (e.g running a sequence, rather than to a timetable).

[Michael Hodgson]

17 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

I have a pet hypothesis that scenery killed-off signalling on model railways.

 

In the beginning, it was seen as integral to the hobby, a model railway being track, signals, trains, stations, and barely anything else. This article appears in the very first edition of the very first model railway magazine, although the signals chosen to illustrate the opening paragraphs seem a bit out of kilter with the period under discussion.

 

 

 

(I may have simplified history a bit, but only a bit)

 

 

There's simplification, over-simplification and just plain wrong.

Not you, but Cecil Allen - his references to Figs 2 & 3 above should have been transposed !!

[Nearholmer]

I’ll look to see if that was corrected in the next edition.

[RobinofLoxley]

4 hours ago, melmoth said:

 

What I think you've described is basically the paradigm shift in modelling railways, from a state where the aim was prototypically accurate operation of a railway (or as close as possible), often using trains that were no more than vaguely representative of the real thing, to the situation where ever increasing fidelity to the prototype (particularly regarding locomotives) accompanies a more impressionistic approach to operation (e.g running a sequence, rather than to a timetable).

When I started reading here I didn't think that posters might mention paradigm shifts in relation to railway modelling. It's a learning process 😂

[LNERGE]

20 hours ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

Found the Midland one I was looking for. 

Taken from between the switch blades. Pulling the lever moved the rod away from me. There is a roller in the middle of the stretcher which follows the slot as the Z-plate moves driving the switches from right to left. The switches are locked when the roller is in the straight part of the slot. The points are detected locked by the movement of the small scale-beam crank attached to the Z-plate. The link moves the slot in the detector slide out of alignment when the mechanism starts to move and resumes its aligned position when the movement is completed. There isn't a date on the picture but I did jobs there in 1976 and 1979. I think the latter was when it was converted to power operation from Saltley.

 

[Phil Bullock]

22 hours ago, Peter Kazmierczak said:

At least one person understood my last joke..

Anyway, after trying to create the bits the rodding runs through (rodding stools? - they must have a name) Im in the midst of fitting them to the layout. Tried match sticks - they split. Tried card - just disintegrates into layers. So now using wire. Will start a new thread so as not to clutter this one.

 

So ding, ding, ding, ding.   Ding, ding, ding, ding. Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding for any LMR Midland Lines fans...

I used Wizard Models white metal stools set in/on copper clad Paxolin… worked well for we. 
 

Drilled them 0.5mm across and inserted NS wire where the rollers would be to hold the rods in place … worked a treat.

Edited March 5, 2023 by Phil Bullock

[Dagworth]

1 hour ago, LNERGE said:

 

That reminds me of the operating mechanism of old Hornby System 6 points

 

Andi

[Jeremy Cumberland]

21 hours ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

Found the Midland one I was looking for. 

Taken from between the switch blades. Pulling the lever moved the rod away from me. There is a roller in the middle of the stretcher which follows the slot as the Z-plate moves driving the switches from right to left. The switches are locked when the roller is in the straight part of the slot. The points are detected locked by the movement of the small scale-beam crank attached to the Z-plate. The link moves the slot in the detector slide out of alignment when the mechanism starts to move and resumes its aligned position when the movement is completed. There isn't a date on the picture but I did jobs there in 1976 and 1979. I think the latter was when it was converted to power operation from Saltley.

 

Can I just check my understanding. There isn't a sepatate bar that passes through a slot in the stretcher? Instead the lock is provided by the roller in the slot.

[LNERGE]

14 minutes ago, Dagworth said:

That reminds me of the operating mechanism of old Hornby System 6 points

 

Andi

Ah yes and the clear plastic cover/red and white parts?

[RobinofLoxley]

This is interesting.

 

I am building a large double track system layout In my loft which due to physical restrictions has a facing turnout providing sidings access and later another facing turnout at the other end that creates a reversing loop through those sidings. 

 

Mr priorities are complete the track, add station platforms (2 terminus stations one through, 8 platforms) , ballast, and after that I will add block detection. Signalling comes next. When I designed the layout I didn't have the knowledge to plan the signalling and install it but that has been coming - the first 10 times I read the guide to UK signals I didn't understand any of it. It's not very accessible. It will be a very hard thing to implement - I will be doing it through automation not through manual control and instruments. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[LNERGE]

19 minutes ago, Jeremy C said:

 

Can I just check my understanding. There isn't a sepatate bar that passes through a slot in the stretcher? Instead the lock is provided by the roller in the slot.

A more conventional facing point lock I prepared earlier..

 

 

[Grovenor]

21 minutes ago, Jeremy C said:

 

Can I just check my understanding. There isn't a seperate bar that passes through a slot in the stretcher? Instead the lock is provided by the roller in the slot.

Look at the video where you can see it better than the still photo. There isn't a seperate bar but there are two bolts, one for each position, built into the sliding Z plate, these bolts create a lock independent of the roller.

[Jeremy Cumberland]

47 minutes ago, Grovenor said:

Look at the video where you can see it better than the still photo. There isn't a seperate bar but there are two bolts, one for each position, built into the sliding Z plate, these bolts create a lock independent of the roller.

Ah yes. I didn't spot that till you pointed it out. Thank you.

[Jeepy]

10 hours ago, Dagworth said:

That reminds me of the operating mechanism of old Hornby System 6 points

 

Andi

The ones with the transparent top! 

 

Best wishes, 

 

Jim. 

[Jeepy]

10 hours ago, LNERGE said:

Ah yes and the clear plastic cover/red and white parts?

My apologies, I didn't see your post until after I posted! 🤭

 

Best wishes, 

 

Jim. 

[The Stationmaster]

13 hours ago, RobinofLoxley said:

This is interesting.

 

I am building a large double track system layout In my loft which due to physical restrictions has a facing turnout providing sidings access and later another facing turnout at the other end that creates a reversing loop through those sidings. 

 

Mr priorities are complete the track, add station platforms (2 terminus stations one through, 8 platforms) , ballast, and after that I will add block detection. Signalling comes next. When I designed the layout I didn't have the knowledge to plan the signalling and install it but that has been coming - the first 10 times I read the guide to UK signals I didn't understand any of it. It's not very accessible. It will be a very hard thing to implement - I will be doing it through automation not through manual control and instruments. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

An interesting point arises here although it might be a matter of semantics.  What in this context is 'block detection' because the position of the 'blocks' would presumably, at least in part, be decided by the position of points and the signals.   While the sketches below don't show signal sections (between successive stop signals at a signal box) within Station Limits they do show the relationship between the two basic areas on a. running line - the Block Section and Station Limits (which is an operational term and has nothing to do with stations).

 

During normal operation you are only permitted to have one train at a time, moving in the right direction in a block section (there are certain exceptions to deal with shunting movements which need to enter the section at either end).   Within Station Limits you can do all sorts of things not permitted in a block section and if there are several sfgnal sections you might have more than one train present at a time.

 

PS these sketches are my copyright and cannot be reproduced without my permission except for individual private use

 

 

 

The second  sketch shows short sections with lower arm distant signals and also adds the Clearing Point which has to be clear before a Signalman can accept a train into his block section - which lies in rear of his signal box.

 

 Thus, referring to both sketches  the block section between A & B is controlled by B, and the block section between B & C is controlled by C.  For the opposite line with trains travelling in the opposite direction the block section between C & B is controlled by B and the block section between B & A is controlled by A

 

 

 

Edited March 5, 2023 by The Stationmaster

[SHMD]

...sorry Mike, but I couldn't find the "VERY Informative/Useful" Emote!

 

(This thread, amongst a others, is fantastic for those of us trying to learn/improve our model railway efforts.)

 

 

Kev.