Is Signaling one of the most overlooked or at least intentionally simplified parts of the layout?

[Reorte]

14 minutes ago, SZ said:

This thread is itself great example of why signalling is often overlooked. The tendency is to over-complicate any discussion to a real world degree when what the average modeller requires is actually a simplification of this, some principles not exception after exception. I remember how my first excursions into signalling soon descended into discussions of bell codes, entirely useless to the modeller.

 

That's an inevitable consequence of a discussion forum, where other questions get raised and so on and so forth. It can be a nuisance but without it I expect the place would've dried up and died years ago, and at least it gets the information down somewhere, with input from people who really know what they're talking about, which might not happen at all otherwise.

 

This is why a good book on the subject, properly organised so that the reader doesn't lose sight of the wood for the trees, is the ideal starting point, but on the other hand it's conversations like this that highlight the need for one.

[Phil Bullock]

55 minutes ago, Peter Kazmierczak said:

Thanks guys.

Phil, fig 4  & 8 most interesting.

 

So do these rodding runs look OK?

Is that a passing loop for passenger trains Peter? If so and both the main line and the loop are bidirectional then would both ends of the entry/exit crossovers need FPLs

[Peter Kazmierczak]

It's my "Shardlow" layout, Phil. as per diagram below. The only passenger line is the thicker black one.

[SZ]

44 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

I have been operating a large fully signalled O Gauge railway for over 50 years that requires signalling by bell codes because the operators only control trains within their own station area, and you need to establish whether the line is clear to send a train to next station, since you can't actually see the line outside your own immediate area.

 

You're not actually modelling bell codes though, you're using bell codes, something massively over-specified for your purposes.

[Reorte]

9 minutes ago, SZ said:

 

You're not actually modelling bell codes though, you're using bell codes, something massively over-specified for your purposes.

Sure, but it seems to make sense to use something already designed for the purpose rather than come up with something else from scratch. And if you're doing that then although it could be simplified down to just suit the needs of a layout, well, I'd go all in and treat it as part of the modelling at that point (just as I like the idea of modelling off-scene signals and interlocking, which are also arguably over-specified for the purposes of a layout).

[Michael Hodgson]

1 minute ago, SZ said:

 

You're not actually modelling bell codes though, you're using bell codes, something massively over-specified for your purposes.

Yes we do need the codes.  We work to a fast clock and a timeable, not as some modellers do to a rigid sequence - trains can and do run out of sequence if they're delayed.

 

We need to know what's approaching in order to operate it efficiently.  If it's local passenger I can put into a shorter platform than I need for an express.   If its destination is the branch, I need to set the points accordingly.  If it's the milk train I need not to send it forward but shunt it to the dairy.   We need to prioritise movements when we have more than one train to deal with at junctions.

[The Stationmaster]

2 minutes ago, SZ said:

 

You're not actually modelling bell codes though, you're using bell codes, something massively over-specified for your purposes.

As we don't know how is layout s arranged or how big it is we don't know whether ot r not bell codes are either appropriate or in fact a critical part of the only way the layout can be operated.  I nvisited an 00 layout many years ago which could in fact only be operated by using some sort of communication) between operators because not only could many of them not see the other operators and in a couple of cases they were in what amounted to a separate room from the operator they were working to with a wall in between.

 

In that sort of situation you have to communicate in some sensible way to enable trains to move between areas controlled by different operators.  and the simplest way of doing that is to copy the real world and use bells (ideally with some sort of block indicator.   I realise that listening to them at an exhibition can - if they are too loaud - be a nuisance to many people.  But so are diesel sound effects - especially when they are wrong.

 

Incidentally a point for Michael Hodgson -from October 1960  the Call attention bell signal was required to be sent before sending the "train Out of Section' bell signal on all T Regions except the WR.  The WR Regulations were brought into line with the other Regions in August 1965.  How modellers do it need not, of course, comply with BR Regulations and you certainly won't have the scale equivalent of a 440 yard Clearing Point!

[Nick C]

8 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

Incidentally a point for Michael Hodgson -from October 1960  the Call attention bell signal was required to be sent before sending the "train Out of Section' bell signal on all T Regions except the WR.  The WR Regulations were brought into line with the other Regions in August 1965.  

Except on the Southern - top of page 9:

 

Quote

NOTE. - On the Southern Region the Call Attention signal will not be used preceding the Train out of section or Obstruction Removed signals.

 

[SZ]

And there we have it, nothing much of use to the average modeller.

[The Stationmaster]

46 minutes ago, Nick C said:

Except on the Southern - top of page 9:

 

 

Yes - I didn't mention it because I haven't got all the amendments to that book so couldn't date when it ceased to apply.  Definitely gone by 1972 and most likely i would think altered at the same time as the WR, perhaps?

[The Stationmaster]

55 minutes ago, SZ said:

And there we have it, nothing much of use to the average modeller.

Which is a view you are entitled to.  But how do you know if you aren't fully aware of the various details of the subject?  

[t-b-g]

I see lots of model railways, either home layouts or at shows, where there is more than one operating position/station, where the conversation between operators will go something like: "Are you ready to take the express?". "Yes I am ready for it now". "It is on its way now". "It has arrived".

 

Really, that is all that bell codes do. It is a communication that needs to be carried out to ensure everybody is ready for the next train to run, so why not do it like the real railways did/do? I have operated a few layouts that use bell codes, usually in a much simplified way with only a handful of codes to remember rather than the great lists that were used on the real railways.

 

I can understand why some people don't like using them on a model but I find that it really adds a little extra something to the operation and I really enjoy them.  

[Nick C]

7 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

Yes - I didn't mention it because I haven't got all the amendments to that book so couldn't date when it ceased to apply.  Definitely gone by 1972 and most likely i would think altered at the same time as the WR, perhaps?

Pass! The latest amendment my copy has is August '65, and it's still in place there.

[Titanius Anglesmith]

1 hour ago, SZ said:

And there we have it, nothing much of use to the average modeller.

What’s an average modeller?  I found this discussion quite interesting, I must be above average. 
 

Slightly more seriously, I was contacted a few months back by a modeller who wanted my advice on how to programme an Arduino to receive and issue bell codes. So this must be relevant to someone. 
 

edit: multiple replies beat me to it

Edited March 2, 2023 by Titanius Anglesmith

[johnofwessex]

1 hour ago, Titanius Anglesmith said:

What’s an average modeller?  I found this discussion quite interesting, I must be above average. 
 

Slightly more seriously, I was contacted a few months back by a modeller who wanted my advice on how to programme an Arduino to receive and issue bell codes. So this must be relevant to someone. 
 

edit: multiple replies beat me to it

 

What about Peter Denny's 'Automatic Crispin'?

[SZ]

1 hour ago, The Stationmaster said:

Which is a view you are entitled to.  But how do you know if you aren't fully aware of the various details of the subject?  

 

I am aware enough of the details to know that it's of no use to the average modeller.

[t-b-g]

I am not sure if there is really any use for a term like "average modeller" in this context. I have known some brilliant model makers who have no interest whatsoever in trying to operate their railways in anything like a realistic fashion and I have known some layouts based on all RTR, set track and Metcalfe kits for buildings that are run in an authentic way, with correct signalling, block bells etc.

 

I find that people within the hobby can be divided very easily into those who are interested in trying to recreate real operation or people who are happy just running trains. That leaves out the pure builder who only test runs their creations to make sure that they work.

 

My view is that to make the operation sustain the interest over a long period of time, then a layout with a sequence/timetable, working signals and preferably block bells, makes each individual movement more in depth and interesting.

 

The late Frank Dyer wrote an excellent seres of article in MRJ many years ago and I always remember his description of the difference between "running trains" and "operating a layout".

 

I can, very quickly, tell the "operators" from the "train runners" when I see a layout being run.

 

Not that there is anything wrong or right about either approach. If it is what the modeller wants to do and what they enjoy, nobody could (or should) tell them that they should not be doing it like that. 

[St. Simon]

50 minutes ago, SZ said:

 

I am aware enough of the details to know that it's of no use to the average modeller.

That’s quite bold of you to assume that all ‘average modellers’ will find what is being discussed of no use at all……

 

Simon

[Dagworth]

8 minutes ago, St. Simon said:

That’s quite bold of you to assume that all ‘average modellers’ will find what is being discussed of no use at all……

 

Simon

I wonder if, for many modellers, it's one of these that they dare not open?

 

 

[Peter Kazmierczak]

Don't average modellers read the "Railway Modeller"?  🙄

[Peter Kazmierczak]

42 minutes ago, Dagworth said:

I wonder if, for many modellers, it's one of these that they dare not open?

 

 

 

That's me tea sorted...

[The Stationmaster]

1 hour ago, Peter Kazmierczak said:

Don't average modellers read the "Railway Modeller"?  🙄

You're showing your age there Peter.  Nowadays it's   'At the heart of the hobby'.    I think it was Steve Flint who changed it?

[Peter Kazmierczak]

What; is C J Freezer now longer the editor? Can't remember the last time I bought a model railway mag, Mike...

[The Stationmaster]

37 minutes ago, Peter Kazmierczak said:

What; is C J Freezer now longer the editor? Can't remember the last time I bought a model railway mag, Mike...

I even buy 'the Modeller' occasionally.  In some respects much improved from the old days but they have repeed some of the Ian Beattie drawings but without impoving them - so they're no better than they used to be.

[TheSignalEngineer]

On 02/03/2023 at 08:08, 5BarVT said:

The only economical FPL I have seen was at the Midland Railway site in Butterley about 35 years ago. Didn’t have digital photos then.  As far as I can remember and I see no technical reason for any other solution: one lever, one set of rodding, and one box of tricks that does both functions at the points.

Paul.

Not got access to my signalling album at the moment but I'm sure I have a picture of probably the last in use in the Birmingham area. It was at Kings Norton and survived into being worked from the Shunt Frame after commissioning of Saltley PSB. It may have survived until the box was finally closed. I will try to scan and post tomorrow.

Edited March 3, 2023 by TheSignalEngineer