I will spend £150 - £250 on a loco but nothing on a controller

[MartinRS]

2 hours ago, MichaelE said:

I never worry about how the directional control is set up. If it doesn't move in the direction I want, I just push the directional button.

Have you considered a career in the Royal Navy?

[MartinRS]

3 hours ago, MichaelE said:

 

It works well for me. When I was shopping for a new DCC system, I was wary of touch screens. I don't care for them much on mobile phones and I sure didn't want a controller that was 100% touch screen.

 

The Cab Control has a very large speed control knob and four hardware buttons that can be programmed for whatever function you want.

 

The two left side buttons on mine are programmed for speed step up/down, and the right side upper is programmed for coasting to a halt, and the lower for emergency stop. Global emergency stop can be performed from the pressure button to the lower right of the speed control knob that cuts power to the layout.

 

Those were just my choices, but you can program anything to these buttons except the power button I mentioned.

 

Yes but can it order a pitza?

 

On a more serious note thanks for sharing your experience of using that controller. I'm at the rolling stock accumulation stage and won't consider building a layout until I have tested loco hauling ability, and the different manufacturers track. (In TT:120 that means waiting for products to be developed). I have only ever used DC in the past and was thinking about buying a couple of Morley Controllers, based on positive comments about it here on RmWeb. The old H&M Duette will be put into storage now given the problems I have read about using it with some modern motor types.

 

I find I am becoming drawn to DCC, especially now I have seen your controller with a nice physical speed control. What's it like at shunting speeds? I ensvision a tail chaser (with pointless passenger trains running round in circles, just to provide constant movement) but I want line-side industries (and coal mines) with lots of shunting movements.

[Jol Wilkinson]

6 hours ago, Oldddudders said:

But as said, on DC, if you move the Duette knob to the left, then the loco will go that way. Turn the loco round and it will still go the same way for that knob movement. With DCC, opening the throttle sends the loco in the forward or reverse direction whichever is set. Turn the loco round and it still goes forward or reverse, whichever is set, but is now opposite to before. You are driving the loco, not the track. 

 

Ian,

 

I use DC controllers and when I move the control knob the loco moves, not the track.

 

6 hours ago, Pete the Elaner said:

 

How has this waded into DCC? It was originally about buying a £200 loco & driving it with an old or cheap controller which gives a nasty, spiky output.

 

Your ideal DCC throttle is my nightmare. I like having to think about stopping a train instead of doing it instantly. Don't real trains coast for miles & take a few hundred yards to stop? Where is the fun in being able to stop it straight away? If I really need to stop instantly, most systems have a red panic button.

 

Not everybody wants a centre-off which only allows about 130 degrees between off & max either. I have used one & hated it. 0-max is about 300 degrees on a Gaugemaster, which allows a lot finer control simply because you need to turn the knob further for a small increase in speed.

 

There have been  and still are DC controllers with inertia, e.g. Pentroller and its modern equivalent, the Pictroller (and possibly others). However these are probably considered too expensive, somewhat reinforcing Andy's opening point.

 

I have several Pentrollers and have found them very good, and in inertia mode, give an interesting driving experience. You  really have to pay attention to what you are doing.

[Oldddudders]

6 hours ago, AY Mod said:

They didn't specifically include electric cattle fences.

Hey - the ultimate pulse power!

[MJI]

I jave an earlyish electronic controller, Commander, it is not good with coreless, basically iron core and ringfield only.

 

My lot older Safety Minor is good with all motors tried.

 

Not used much now as the newer Gaugemaster as used.

[JIJ]

Just for reference, what does count as a "good" controller? 

 

Obviously the Morley and pentroller models are regarded as good, and things like the old Triang controllers that spit out barely rectified full wave as "bad".

 

I've seen the old Hornby starter set controllers (as shown on page 1) described both as good and bad by different people (and apparently there are two generations of circuit in the same case, each with very different performance), with the later ones (the silver ones with the inset large black nob) apparently being even worse.

 

Some people seem to have had good luck with the high frequency pwm motor controllers (available on eBay for less than £10), but my own experience with them has shown that while they can work with some motors, others seem to shoot off at high speed with the controller set to the minimum.

 

Is the Gaugemaster Combi a "good controller? What exactly can one look for in the specs of a controller to see if one is good? And can anyone suggest a good single track controller for an "advanced beginner"?

[MartinRS]

2 hours ago, JIJ said:

Just for reference, what does count as a "good" controller? 

The best controller I've ever had was one I built in the 1970s based on a diagram published in Electronic Circuits for Model Railways from Bernards & Babani Press. It used a Darlington pair emitter follower (I had to find a substitute for one of the transistors) with a rheostat with two switches in the off (zero ohms) position for the power. (I could only buy a rheostat with one switch which I used to activate a relay). It had both a throttle controller and a brake. I can't remember how the brake was wired into the system. You could simulate inertia by switching a capacitor into the circuit which discharged when you braked and charged when you accelerated giving much more realistic performance. The great feature of the controller was that one of the rheostat switches momentarily discharged full power into the base of the Darlington pair via another capacitor wired via a guard diode. The momentary spike of full power meant even the stickiest loco motor would overcome its initial starting torque. That feature made it a good controller from my point of view. I'm going back to the time when resistance mat controllers were the norm although commercial electronic controllers were available.

 

I dug the book out sometime in the 1990s only to find the pages had turned dark brown, making it unreadable. I'm not sure about the level of electronics in modern (non-DCC) locos and how they would cope with an initial starting spike. I was once asked by my boss (when I worked for a large telecoms company) to solve a problem caused when a local hospital simulated a power cut to test their emergency generator. It killed the telephone system, blowing the PSU module. Mains filters didn't work, both the plug-in type and a more reliable (and costly) type which was the size, shape and weight of a house-brick. I put a pen-recorder on the output of the generator and found it was kicking out a 600v spike when it started. (That was very unusual: many transients and spikes could only be detected by another electronic box of tricks we used. The pen-recorder was much to slow to detect fast transients). I ordered a mains powered variable timer (monostable) from RS and wired it in series with the mains supply to the telephone system which cured the problem. The lesson was modern electronic systems don't like spikes so I'm reluctant to build another such controller.

 

I found another copy of the same book on the inter-web but it too has brown pages. I think I'll pass on buying it! I might try and get a copy of the more up-to-date book, Practical Electronic Model Railway Projects, from the same publisher which gets mentioned earlier in this thread. In the meantime I'm tempted to buy a Morley Controller. DCC does look tempting though. The downside of DCC from my standpoint is the complexity (and kit) required to create an automatic system, coping with multiple trains on the same track.

[PMP]

11 hours ago, JIJ said:

 

Is the Gaugemaster Combi a "good controller? What exactly can one look for in the specs of a controller to see if one is good? And can anyone suggest a good single track controller for an "advanced beginner"?

NB I’ve used all of the following with a wide range of OO/N and some O/TT120. The problem with your question, is in my experience it can awake the ‘experts’ whom have no direct knowledge/experience of products and will happily fill pages with unsubstantiated froth….
 

The Combi is ok, I’ve had one that failed which I returned for repair, and has subsequently failed again. Unfortunately they won’t swap it for a model W and I have no interest in retaining it as a Combi. I didn’t find it as good as their W (see below).
 

I currently use Gaugemaster Model W for N and OO across a whole range of older (80’’s) and contemporary models with no problems at all, and would happily recommend them. I’ve used them for the past 14 years on home and exhibition layouts with no failures at all. I run them from standard 16v input transformers. These have worked with all types of motors open frame, can and coreless.

https://www.gaugemasterretail.com/gaugemaster-gmc-w.html

Hornby trainset controllers R965 are only fit for recycling in my experience, they give very poor control with some contemporary models, to the extent they may damage them. Some models have been uncontrollable with them. The Bachmann trainset controller is ok but not outstanding with anything (so far).

 

If starting DCC I’d suggest a NCE powercab for ease of use in startup DCC. 

 

 

Edited January 25 by PMP
Addition R965

[Pete the Elaner]

16 hours ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

 

There have been  and still are DC controllers with inertia, e.g. Pentroller and its modern equivalent, the Pictroller (and possibly others). However these are probably considered too expensive, somewhat reinforcing Andy's opening point.

 

 

I have got a couple of Gaugemaster ones with the simulator, but have also tried others.

The driving experience provided by these is nowhere near as good as active/dynamic braking on a Loksound or Zimo. Loksound v5's dynamic brake is a huge upgrade from a v4 too.

 

But I agree that a DC controller with brake/inertia is a more sophisticated unit than the intended subject of this thread.

[MJI]

Good

Variable Transformer - eg Powermaster

Modern electronic - eg Gaugemaster

 

Bad

Resistance mat - eg Duette cheap & transet jobbies

low frequency pulse electronic - depends but coreless hate H&M electronics.

[Michael Hodgson]

19 hours ago, MartinRS said:

Have you considered a career in the Royal Navy?

Left hand down a bit.

 

 

Sorry pardon.

[Michael Hodgson]

54 minutes ago, MJI said:

Good

Variable Transformer - eg Powermaster

Modern electronic - eg Gaugemaster

 

Bad

Resistance mat - eg Duette cheap & transet jobbies

low frequency pulse electronic - depends but coreless hate H&M electronics.

 

Worse...

• I still have in my electrical junk box a couple of ex-train set power supplies (make unknown) that have a centre-off switch that can be moved to select speed I, II or III in either direction.
• I once had a Triang train set controller that took the form of a large battery box (I think it took the same large batteries as a contemporary bike headlamp) with a 3-position switch on top - forwards/off/reverse; no overload cut-out, just run the battery down if there's a dead short.

[Pete the Elaner]

13 hours ago, MartinRS said:

The downside of DCC from my standpoint is the complexity (and kit) required to create an automatic system, coping with multiple trains on the same track.

 

But that is way beyond what any DC system can do, so how can it be a downside?

DCC is a gateway to achieve so much more than DC could ever possibly offer.

[MichaelE]

21 hours ago, MartinRS said:

I find I am becoming drawn to DCC, especially now I have seen your controller with a nice physical speed control. What's it like at shunting speeds? I ensvision a tail chaser (with pointless passenger trains running round in circles, just to provide constant movement) but I want line-side industries (and coal mines) with lots of shunting movements.

 

It performs well at low speed, but that is mostly a function of the decoder, the programming, and the locomotive. I have yet to buy a European locomotive that did not have a shunting function built-in to the programming. It essentially halves the speed step so precise speed control is possible.

[BMacdermott]

17 hours ago, JIJ said:

Just for reference, what does count as a "good" controller? 

And can anyone suggest a good single track controller for an "advanced beginner"?

 

Hello Jol

 

Below is what I posted to this thread on Page 1. Hope it helps.

 

Brian

____________________

 

I experimented some years ago with controllers and settled on the handheld ones sold by All Components (which are based on what used to be made by Kent Panel Controls). I run DC with Common Return.

 

I have had the feedback switched to minimum by a chap they use for repairs. Probably not much difference on performance of most locos but - as I have noted on another thread recently - my DJM 14xx was 'jumpy' when one came back with feedback inadvertently 'full on'. Changed back to a minimum - problem gone!

 

I recently bought a Trax handheld controller. Good control, but - for me - doesn't 'sit' as nicely in my hand as the All Components.

 

Brian

[Pete the Elaner]

4 minutes ago, MichaelE said:

 

It performs well at low speed, but that is mostly a function of the decoder, the programming, and the locomotive. I have yet to buy a European locomotive that did not have a shunting function built-in to the programming. It essentially halves the speed step so precise speed control is possible.

 

Another vital thing you have missed:

At low speed with DC, there is a low voltage between wheel & rail, which is the weakest part of the circuit & susceptible to dirt.

DCC has a constant higher voltage, which pushes the current across this boundary. This is a huge help with slow speed running.

[MartinRS]

2 hours ago, Pete the Elaner said:

 

But that is way beyond what any DC system can do, so how can it be a downside?

DCC is a gateway to achieve so much more than DC could ever possibly offer.

With DC you can create a simple automatic (uni-direction) control system. All you have to do is detect a train after it has just passed a signal. (It doesn't matter how this is done so long as the detector doesn't latch, although there are circumstances which exclude using loco-based magnets and reeds such as when you want to identify trains which are going to take alternate routes at junctions). The detector is used to operate a couple of relays, the occupancy relay and the release relay.

 

The key feature of the occupancy relay is it latches using one of its own contacts. The occupancy relay can itself power slave relays, depending on how many change over contacts are required. The occupancy relay can be used to change the aspect of the signal. It can be used to isolate a section of track at the approach to the signal. Now imagine a further series of track sections just in advance of the isolated section with their power switched from the normal feed (determined by the controller setting) to a feed via a series of resistors, increasing in value the closer they are to the isolated section. It's been a long time since I built an automatic system though a value of 47 ohms was a typical value of resistance to slow the train IIRC. Values of resistors have to be chosen to reflect circumstances, with lower values used on rising gradients, least the loco stalls.

 

Any following train would first encounter a section fed via a 10 ohm (say) resistor, then a section fed by a 27 ohm resistor and finally a 47 ohm resistor, slowing as the resistance increased, before it stopped at the isolated section of track at the signal. (The isolated section must be long enough to accommodate the largest loco on the layout or two locos if you are double heading, or even two carriages in length if you are running two car DMUs with a powered car at one (indeterminate) end. The slave relays can lock (disconnect the power to) points in the now occupied section. If there is a junction in the occupied section then slave relays can seize (activate) occupancy relays for the section of track at the approaching junctions to prevent conflicting movements.

The other switched relay, the release relay, activated as the train passes a signal, is used to momentarily break the the latch circuit for the occupancy relay of the section behind the now free section, clearing the signal etc.

 

Another feature could be a station stop controlled by a monostable. If certain trains can identify themselves as being a shuttle service (such as a DMU running from a bay platform to another station's bay platform) it is easy to create such a system. Shuttle services have a magnet which activates a reed in the track, operating a relay which switches the (interlocked) point for the bay platform. Other traffic which takes a different route at a junction can be identified by using two magnets operating two reeds simultaneously (spaced apart the same distance as the magnets beneath the loco, acting as an AND gate), activating a relay which 'knows' to set the points at a junction.

 

If you want to manually run a pick-up goods (or similar service) you just override the automatic system by throwing a switch which holds any occupancy relays at the approach to the section you are shunting and switches power to another controller. Its cab control with two operators; one human, the other a box of relays.

 

Ok it involves lots of additional wiring but to me it is quite straightforward. I'm not sure if I could achieve the degree of control and flexibility (especially the 'operator or relay system' cab control) using DCC without a PC or getting to grips with micro-controllers. That's why I'm reluctant to adopt DCC. I do like some of its feature though, so who knows, I might be tempted to give it a try?

[Pete the Elaner]

13 minutes ago, MartinRS said:

With DC you can create a simple automatic (uni-direction) control system. All you have to do is detect a train after it has just passed a signal. (It doesn't matter how this is done so long as the detector doesn't latch, although there are circumstances which exclude using loco-based magnets and reeds such as when you want to identify trains which are going to take alternate routes at junctions). The detector is used to operate a couple of relays, the occupancy relay and the release relay.

 

The key feature of the occupancy relay is it latches using one of its own contacts. The occupancy relay can itself power slave relays, depending on how many change over contacts are required. The occupancy relay can be used to change the aspect of the signal. It can be used to isolate a section of track at the approach to the signal. Now imagine a further series of track sections just in advance of the isolated section with their power switched from the normal feed (determined by the controller setting) to a feed via a series of resistors, increasing in value the closer they are to the isolated section. It's been a long time since I built an automatic system though a value of 47 ohms was a typical value of resistance to slow the train IIRC. Values of resistors have to be chosen to reflect circumstances, with lower values used on rising gradients, least the loco stalls.

 

Any following train would first encounter a section fed via a 10 ohm (say) resistor, then a section fed by a 27 ohm resistor and finally a 47 ohm resistor, slowing as the resistance increased, before it stopped at the isolated section of track at the signal. (The isolated section must be long enough to accommodate the largest loco on the layout or two locos if you are double heading, or even two carriages in length if you are running two car DMUs with a powered car at one (indeterminate) end. The slave relays can lock (disconnect the power to) points in the now occupied section. If there is a junction in the occupied section then slave relays can seize (activate) occupancy relays for the section of track at the approaching junctions to prevent conflicting movements.

The other switched relay, the release relay, activated as the train passes a signal, is used to momentarily break the the latch circuit for the occupancy relay of the section behind the now free section, clearing the signal etc.

 

Another feature could be a station stop controlled by a monostable. If certain trains can identify themselves as being a shuttle service (such as a DMU running from a bay platform to another station's bay platform) it is easy to create such a system. Shuttle services have a magnet which activates a reed in the track, operating a relay which switches the (interlocked) point for the bay platform. Other traffic which takes a different route at a junction can be identified by using two magnets operating two reeds simultaneously (spaced apart the same distance as the magnets beneath the loco, acting as an AND gate), activating a relay which 'knows' to set the points at a junction.

 

If you want to manually run a pick-up goods (or similar service) you just override the automatic system by throwing a switch which holds any occupancy relays at the approach to the section you are shunting and switches power to another controller. Its cab control with two operators; one human, the other a box of relays.

 

Ok it involves lots of additional wiring but to me it is quite straightforward. I'm not sure if I could achieve the degree of control and flexibility (especially the 'operator or relay system' cab control) using DCC without a PC or getting to grips with micro-controllers. That's why I'm reluctant to adopt DCC. I do like some of its feature though, so who knows, I might be tempted to give it a try?

 

ABC braking with DCC will do a lot of that & is supported by many decoders (I think even the Zimo MX600 series).

It is really a subject for & covered elsewhere instead of drifting away from the conversation's original suggestion of a cheap old controller being unsuitable for a modern motor.

[Coldgunner]

Where does the Hornby HM2000 sit on the quality scale? Bought mine donkeys ago for about £40 and seems rather solid but not sure on the tech it uses, and if its still good for modern motors? So far hasn't been an issue with anything right back to my early Tri-Ang Jinty.

[Pierre Le Brun]

On 24/01/2024 at 18:15, MartinRS said:

Yes but can it order a pitza?

 

On a more serious note thanks for sharing your experience of using that controller. I'm at the rolling stock accumulation stage and won't consider building a layout until I have tested loco hauling ability, and the different manufacturers track. (In TT:120 that means waiting for products to be developed). I have only ever used DC in the past and was thinking about buying a couple of Morley Controllers, based on positive comments about it here on RmWeb. The old H&M Duette will be put into storage now given the problems I have read about using it with some modern motor types.

 

I find I am becoming drawn to DCC, especially now I have seen your controller with a nice physical speed control. What's it like at shunting speeds? I ensvision a tail chaser (with pointless passenger trains running round in circles, just to provide constant movement) but I want line-side industries (and coal mines) with lots of shunting movements.

 

On 24/01/2024 at 18:15, MartinRS said:

Yes but can it order a pitza?

 

On a more serious note thanks for sharing your experience of using that controller. I'm at the rolling stock accumulation stage and won't consider building a layout until I have tested loco hauling ability, and the different manufacturers track. (In TT:120 that means waiting for products to be developed). I have only ever used DC in the past and was thinking about buying a couple of Morley Controllers, based on positive comments about it here on RmWeb. The old H&M Duette will be put into storage now given the problems I have read about using it with some modern motor types.

 

I find I am becoming drawn to DCC, especially now I have seen your controller with a nice physical speed control. What's it like at shunting speeds? I ensvision a tail chaser (with pointless passenger trains running round in circles, just to provide constant movement) but I want line-side industries (and coal mines) with lots of shunting movements.

I ordered a Morley controller 5 days ago as it has more spec than a Gauge master. The only thing is how long do they take to post out? I gather they are not fast. 

[BMacdermott]

Hello Pierre

 

The 'difficulty' I found with the Morley controller was that locos were either 'stopped' or 'going'. There wasn't much finesse with the starting to roll. I'd be interested to hear your experience.

 

Brian

[MR Chuffer]

24 minutes ago, BMacdermott said:

locos were either 'stopped' or 'going'

I've had the Vector Zero Three Crawler http://morleycontrollers.com/shopexd.asp?id=46 for over a year now, no start/stopping issues whatsoever with up to date Bachmann and v.old Hornby and Tri-ang locos - unlike with my previous Gaugemaster Combi which I binned. Very smooth and controllable at all speeds.

 

@Pierre Le Brun The business owner retired last year but they are still shipping. I remember talking to him about shipping times and recall him saying they batch orders up and send them all out at once, mine took 7 days to get to me. V helpful if you phone or email.

 

 

Edited January 27 by MR Chuffer

[Pierre Le Brun]

32 minutes ago, MR Chuffer said:

I've had the Vector Zero Three Crawler http://morleycontrollers.com/shopexd.asp?id=46 for over a year now, no start/stopping issues whatsoever with up to date Bachmann and v.old Hornby and Tri-ang locos - unlike with my previous Gaugemaster Combi which I binned. Very smooth and controllable at all speeds.

 

@Pierre Le Brun The business owner retired last year but they are still shipping. I remember talking to him about shipping times and recall him saying they batch orders up and send them all out at once, mine took 7 days to get to me. V helpful if you phone or email.

 

 

I've ordered the same controller. I'm not in a hurry to receive it, I think these day's we expect almost next day shipping. Understandably It makes sense for a small manufacturing  business to send out in batches or set days. Unfortunately their website isn't the best and they could mention delivery times. 

[BMacdermott]

59 minutes ago, MR Chuffer said:

I've had the Vector Zero Three Crawler http://morleycontrollers.com/shopexd.asp?id=46 for over a year now, no start/stopping issues whatsoever with up to date Bachmann and v.old Hornby and Tri-ang locos - unlike with my previous Gaugemaster Combi which I binned. Very smooth and controllable at all speeds.

 

Many thanks Mr Chuffer - clearly an improvement on what they had (and pretty much confirmed by a YouTube video I have just seen).

 

I had forgotten to say that I had another 'difficulty' with the controller. I very much prefer a direction switch so that I know I have a 'definite no power' position. The Morley units are back and forward. I also found that the handheld units didn't 'sit' so nicely in my hand.

 

I did once have the Gaugemaster handhelds but found the slider switch gave me a form of RSI (very mildly and no intended criticism of Gaugemaster).  The All Components controllers have a rocker switch to which I fit a plastic sleeve for even greater 'comfort'.

 

All a matter of personal opinion.🙂

 

Brian

[Pierre Le Brun]

On 27/01/2024 at 12:54, BMacdermott said:

Hello Pierre

 

The 'difficulty' I found with the Morley controller was that locos were either 'stopped' or 'going'. There wasn't much finesse with the starting to roll. I'd be interested to hear your experience.

 

Brian

 

On 27/01/2024 at 12:54, BMacdermott said:

Hello Pierre

 

The 'difficulty' I found with the Morley controller was that locos were either 'stopped' or 'going'. There wasn't much finesse with the starting to roll. I'd be interested to hear your experience.

 

Brian

Hi I've just taken delivery of my Morley controller and connected it up to my small N gauge Layout. I found the start up, slowing down and stopping to be very good. I bought the Crawler version. So far I'd give it a thumbs up. I also like the auxiliary power for lights etc which is DC. My Gaugemaster Combi's auxiliary was AC and caused me problems with Led's.