I will spend £150 - £250 on a loco but nothing on a controller

[BMacdermott]

Hello RichardT

 

It's no good for Andy York...it only goes up to 8 and he demands 11. 😀

 

Brian

[RedgateModels]

3 hours ago, SteveyDee68 said:

One controller that has been advertised in all the magazines* purports to work for both DC and DCC models at the flick of a switch - does anybody have any experience of it?

 

Steve S

you’re probably thinking of this

 

https://dmgelectech.co.uk/product/dual-function-controller-dc-and-dcc-ld101-by-ane-model/

 

it does work, but, the casing is very lightweight and you really have to turn the knob to beyond 30 on the display to get a dc loco moving. Function control on DCC is fiddly too.

 

it’s pretty Good for the money, to read more see my article in November 2022 BRM

[woodenhead]

13 minutes ago, RichardT said:

Must have been a grey market/personal import? This is what their website says:

 

To quote the firm from here:https://forum.mrhmag.com/post/proto-throttle-overseas-use-any-chance-12217487

 

CE Certification

Just to add a little clarity...

The issue with Europe is really two-fold.  The first is CE certification.  The radio module we use is already pre-certified for EU operation as an intentional radiator, and we pass the EU unintentional radiated emissions standards without any issues.   The issue is that CE compliance also requires additional testing beyond radiated emissions, such as EM susceptibility and a few other consumer product standards, that aren't applicable to US/CA/AU/NZ.  Basically, it's going to add a bunch of cost to have a lab run those tests and file all the paperwork.  Probably would eat the profits from the number we'd sell in Europe.

The other half of it is support and warranty issues, and the cost of sending the things back and forth for any repairs (and the number of international mail shipments that just go missing).  The brake pot issue that's caused a significant number of warranty repairs is pretty the sort of thing we feared, and if we had dozens or hundreds of these things in Europe that needed the same work, the shipping alone would kill us.

The short version is you can operate them in Europe and the UK without fear that your compliance police will hunt you down for taking out the neighbor's television.  All the radios are in spec.  The problem lies in the cost of doing the necessary testing, paperwork, and support to expand to that market.  So you can use them, we just can't ship them to you.

 

They will work, just not been certified and they are concerned how they would offer a warranty.

 

So yes, a grey import.

Edited February 19, 2023 by woodenhead

[Jol Wilkinson]

I would like to strongly recommend two controllers that I have used for years, but regrettably can't as they are no longer available.

 

The first is the Pentroller, either the large version with Coast and Brake option or the smaller panel version without. These were manufactured years ago by Stuart Hine and give excellent control on coreless or "standard" motors such as Mashima. Alternatively and available until recently is the Modelex controller.

 

I have a number of each and used them on my 4mm exhibition layout (all kit built locos with standard can or coreless motors, where they gave excellent and reliable results.

 

A version of the Pentroller is available from Malcolm's Miniatures, called a Pictroller. A friend has one and says it is excellent,

 

All these need separate transformer supplies and at £90 for the Pictroller probably fit into Andy Y's category of being outside many peoples concept of a suitable controller to use with  expensive locos.

[teeinox]

My motive power fleet of 23 varies in age in design terms from 1952 to 2013.  Of those, 6 are DCC ready, with either 8-pin or 21-pin sockets.  7 could probably have a DCC socket hard-wired in.  But for 10 of them, it would be impossible.  The main problem cases are Tenshodo and BlackBeetle motor bogies, not just altering their pick-up arrangements, but finding where to put the DCC sockets on what are elderly hand-made models.

 

So far I have stuck with DC, using Gaugemaster series D and Combi controllers.  They are generally fine for everything.  But I also have a H&M Safety Minor, kept for the most elderly locomotives, and out of pure nostalgia!

 

As a collector of rolling stock rather than a layout man (I don’t have room for one), I could contemplate using both DC and DCC, depending on the locomotive.  So far I have not been tempted to invest in DCC.  But what does tempt me now is DCC operation controlled via Bluetooth.  Being able to run a locomotive from an app on my tablet would be a gamechanger!  I don’t really understand where that market has got to right now; I get the feeling that it is still early days.  I shall wait until a clear picture develops before taking the plunge.

[woodenhead]

The use of Blue Tooth whilst good is clearly aimed at taking a controller out of the equation for Hornby. 
 

No problem with that, it is on the evolutionary scale for locomotive control.  
 

But it doesn’t remove the need for well wired and clean track, nor isolation on points and return loop tech.

 

The biggest game changer will be removing the track as the primary power source.  What we need is reliable, small wireless recharge onboard power.

[The Johnster]

2 hours ago, woodenhead said:

The use of Blue Tooth whilst good is clearly aimed at taking a controller out of the equation for Hornby. 
 

No problem with that, it is on the evolutionary scale for locomotive control.  
 

But it doesn’t remove the need for well wired and clean track, nor isolation on points and return loop tech.

 

The biggest game changer will be removing the track as the primary power source.  What we need is reliable, small wireless recharge onboard power.

 

See, he gets it!

[Ravenser]

Given the references to vintage H & M Clippers and Duettes , can I raise one worrying issue?

 

I understand that old controllers from the 50s and 60s commonly had rubber insulation to the mains wiring , and this is likely to perish over time. At which point it may not insulate .....

 

I remember some years ago reading a second or third hand horror story, where apparently someone was using vintage Hornby Dublo transfiormers from the 1950s . The insulation was rubber and had failed , specifically at the rubber grommit where the mains wires entered the metal case . As a result the case had become live at 240V AC , and when the modeller touched it, he was electrocuted and killed. Or so it was said...

 

I have an H&M Clipper in the cupboard. It was acquired second-hand from a school friend, and I suspect it goes back to the 1960s. It has a cotton net cover on the insulated  mains cable, and I daren't even plug it in and switch it on in case the insulation has broken down.

 

How many of these vintage Clippers and Duettes being talked about are actually still safe to use??

 

(I replaced the Clipper with a Gaugemaster 100M nearly 30 years ago , and this unit is still in regular use when I need a DC controller for the Boxfile. It seems to do a pretty decent job. There's a 20 year old Gaugemaster Comi tucked away in the cupboard, and I'm dismayed to realise even my NCE PowerCab must be 15 years old)

[SteveyDee68]

1 hour ago, Ravenser said:

How many of these vintage Clippers and Duettes being talked about are actually still safe to use??

And how many eBay sellers have had their old transformers/controllers checked/PAT Tested to ensure they are safe before offering them for sale? I’m sure it is the case that if someone sells an item that is faulty and it causes injury to the person they sold it to, that the seller is at fault and can be held responsible (either monetary damages or worse case scenario manslaughter). “Caveat emptor” does not apply, and pleading ignorance (“it was fine last time I used it”) does not exempt the seller from guilt, whether a business or a private individual.

 

Personally, I’d rather let the local council recycle my old transformers/controllers rather than risk selling them!

 

Steve S

[kevinlms]

4 hours ago, The Johnster said:

 

See, he gets it!

We do get it, there just is no hoard of manufacturers making such stuff. The question is why not? Because it isn't as easy as you would like to think, otherwise you'd be able to buy them.

[MarkC]

8 hours ago, Ravenser said:

 

 

I remember some years ago reading a second or third hand horror story, where apparently someone was using vintage Hornby Dublo transfiormers from the 1950s . The insulation was rubber and had failed , specifically at the rubber grommit where the mains wires entered the metal case . As a result the case had become live at 240V AC , and when the modeller touched it, he was electrocuted and killed. Or so it was said...

 

It's not uncommon with them to suffer internal insulation failures - and I've had a belt from one myself when I was a youngster - about 11 years old, as I recall. My dad heard my shout, realised what had happened & binned the HD transformers/controllers immediately. (We had a rather wonderful HD 3-rail set, bought, supposedly for me 'for when he's older', by my dad & godfather when I was but a few weeks old. My mum always said that they'd bought it for themselves...)

 

As I understand it, it was the internal wiring that was more prone to failing, but in any case, the potentially (sorry) lethal point was that the speed/direction control on these units is metal, and electrically connected to the chassis.

 

1950s wiring, with cotton sheathing & natural rubber insulation, should have been consigned to the dustbin of history by now.

 

FWIW I've had portable equipment on board ship become 'live' due to insulation breakdown too. Shocking...

 

Mark

 

Edited February 20, 2023 by MarkC

[CloggyDog]

On 17/02/2023 at 23:12, The Johnster said:

I'm not sure that DCC has improved very much over the last thirty years or so, either, but DCC has some advantages over DC in the matter of controlled slow running and smooth starts and stops, which is the very thing that I would like to see improved in DC controllers.  The big thing here is that DCC provides the full 12vdc to the track at all times and works by controlling the current to the motor with a chip aboard the loco, or switching it off entirely.  The result is that. when you want to run your loco slowly but under full control, easing up for example or propelling into a goods shed, situations where things were taken very carefully in real life, the wheels pick up 12vdc from the track and the pickups pick up 12vdc from the wheels, which is a different proposition to whatever voltage is the minimum that will turn the motor, and far more robust in the sense of overcoming minor resistances such as track or pickup dirt, or less than perfectly level track laying.  The trains will run better.

 

The solution then is to remove that troublesome rail>wheel>pick-up>motor path, and go dead-rail with onboard li-po batteries and an RC receiver - the excellent demo at Scaleforum last year showed how possible it is, even down to a 009 Simplex 'Tin Turtle' with batteries and receiver on board and running very, very smoothly. Sadly, I missed out on one of the semi-assembled starter kits being sold there, else I'd have used deadrail/RC on Dounreay. Hopefully they'll have them again this year.

 

The kits use components from Micron http://www.micronradiocontrol.co.uk/rc_model_rail.html and there's quite a bit of useful discussion on the public side of the Scalefour Society's forum: https://www.scalefour.org/forum/viewforum.php?f=137 

I may yet bite the bullet and get a Tx22 kit and a couple of Rx45 receivers, batteries and low-voltage motors for Dounreay's small loco fleet.

 

On 17/02/2023 at 23:12, The Johnster said:

Well, if that's how you feel, convert to DCC Johnster and stop moaning about it.  Ah, but I can't realistically afford to convert my entire fleet of locos to DCC, especially as they'e all have to be done at once, excuse the tragic violins but I'm a poor pensioner on a limited fixed income with a very finite amount of disposable. 

 

I've often heard the 'all or nothing' excuse for not going DCC... Do you really use every single loco during an operating session on your layout? I converted my EM locos over time as funds allowed - starting with the better/most used locos (and even now, some 15 years on, there are a couple of the historically least-used locos which remain DC - I must either chip them or flog them!). As further funds permitted, sound was fitted to a couple of locos, releasing non-sound chips to DCC other locos. 

 

Seriously, the 'tweakability' of a decent DCC decoder to fine-tune the running of a loco does make that difference you're looking for with a DC upgrade.

 

Hmmm... is it possible to drive a layout via a DCC decoder? So just one decoder required, irrespective of fleet size? Still have the rail>wheel>pick-up interface issues though... 🤔 And wouldn't solve a multitude of motor types.

 

 

All that said, aside from my EM locos, all my other layout projects currently us analogue DC, usually* via Gaugemaster HH units, which I find work well with the range of motors I use (old Minitrix to very recent releases). There is a Duette (and a Clipper) knocking about somewhere, used mainly to power my minidrill or provide 16v ac or 12v dc supplies - even then suitable wall-warts would be equally useable!

 

I had/have somewhere a really neat hand-held DC controller which, like the fabled H&M Walkabout, had a vertical slider, but with a microswitch at the bottom of the slider to change direction, really easy to use one-handed for shunting. Was advertised in the mags probably 30 years ago, disappeared after a year or two. Must try and find the crate it's in and see if it still works.

 

* I have also built a couple of hand-held battery controllers using PWM modules, a DPDT switch and a 6 x AA battery pack, all popped into a 0.2l Really Useful Box - these give very smooth control and a set of rechargable 2400mA/h will last all day at an exhibition. Cost was under £5, less batteries.

 

Edited February 20, 2023 by CloggyDog

[Oldddudders]

My 1950s metal Hornby controller was in a separate casing from the transformer, so only had 12v inside. The Hornby transformer was plastic-cased. On top were the 12v output terminals, under each of which was a cartridge fuse, as in a 3-pin plug.  

[RichardT]

14 hours ago, Ravenser said:

remember some years ago reading a second or third hand horror story, where apparently someone was using vintage Hornby Dublo transfiormers from the 1950s . The insulation was rubber and had failed , specifically at the rubber grommit where the mains wires entered the metal case . As a result the case had become live at 240V AC , and when the modeller touched it, he was electrocuted and killed. Or so it was said...

I remember that too. It was an editorial by Cyril Freezer in his “Model Railways” days, quoting from (I think) a local newspaper report he’d read about a modeller who electrocuted himself using “an antiquated resistance controller “.  CJF used this as a hook to (in his own words) “get on a hobby horse of mine” about electrical safety.  His main concern IIRC was that mains controller/transformers should all be in a double-insulated enclosures inside a sealed non-conductive case that was impossible for the end user to open in any way, and provided by the manufacturer with a decent length mains lead to remove the temptation for bodged home extensions.
 

But the thrust of his comments was the same as @AY Mod in starting this thread: why on earth do modellers who will spend hundreds of pounds on sophisticated new locos in multiple quantities persist in sticking with old crude and sometimes dangerous electrical control equipment that costs far less than one loco?  It’s a false economy that “in the final analysis, killed him.”

 

RT

[The Johnster]

3 hours ago, CloggyDog said:

I've often heard the 'all or nothing' excuse for not going DCC... Do you really use every single loco during an operating session on your layout? I converted my EM locos over time as funds allowed - starting with the better/most used locos (and even now, some 15 years on, there are a couple of the historically least-used locos which remain DC - I must either chip them or flog them!). As further funds permitted, sound was fitted to a couple of locos, releasing non-sound chips to DCC other locos. 

Well, yes, almost.

 

The locomotive policy of the Dimbath Valley Railway is governed by the same 'poor pensioner' fiduciary parsimony that dictates the avoidance of DCC, so there is no great abundance of locomotives and all are used.  The layout is operated most days, probably five out of seven in an average week, and runs to a working timetable that requires 11 locomotive diagrams, not including the colliery locos (I do have a surplus of these, and some are only used occasionally, but I am discussing BR locos here).  There are fourteen BR locos in service at the moment, so all are frequently used.  It takes about half a dozen operating sessions to complete a working timetable day in Cwmdimbath Time (which is a battery clock with a switch, so it can be turned off for 'down time' while I am away from the layout or am doing something else, such as modelling during a session, and has no clear plastic cover so that the hands can be advanced if I want to cope with periods of Cwmdimbath Time when nothing is happening). 

 

Realistically, I could chip my locos one at a time, by retaining the DC layout wiring and having DCC locos running on it so long as any DC were isolated, but this seems like a disaster waiting to happen if I get confused, and I do in my dotage, sometimes...  I am, perhaps, untypical in that I do not have a surplus of locomotives other than that required by the 'boiler washout rule' (details next paragraph), but have managed to discipline myself to only buying those that I have work for, with a small surplus to cover a realistic level of changes.  The locos are sometimes out of service for cleaning and checking, and this is coped with by invoking the aforementioned 'boiler washout' rule. 

 

Real steam engines in normal daily service need to be taken out of service regularly to have their boilers washed out and the tubes cleaned, about every seven or eight working days for the tank engines used at Cwmdimbath, and this means that the loco has to be allowed to cool completely down, the boiler flushed through then drained of water, the work done (along with any other maintenance that can be fitted in at the same time), the boiler and firebox inspected by the shed's boilersmith, tubes cleaned, boiler refilled with water and hydraulically tested, and then the loco steamed from cold, a process that takes several hours in itself becuase it has to be done slowly and carefully so as not to strain pipe joints and seals with expansion as she warms up, so the loco is out of service for about 48hours.  There was no Sunday working at Tondu, which helped no doubt but locos were still not available all the time. 

 

Check out the BTC film 'wash and brush up', showing this process on a Standard 5MT at Patricroft.  At Cwmdimbath, where locos are supplied from Tondu shed, there are only two auto-fitted 4575s for two auto diagrams, which means that when one of them is undergoing boiler washout it's duty must be undertaken by a non-auto engine, running around the auto trailers.  This was not an uncommon occurrence at the the real Tondu if photos of the Abergwynfi Branch are an indication!  Adds to the operating fun as well.

 

I appreciate that operating like this would not suit everone, and perhaps not anyone except me, but I like it; it adds an element of the practical day-to-day issues that real shed forement had to cope with, and increases my perception that Cwmdimbath is not a model at a but a real railway in a real place (albeit one that never had a railway, colliery, or mining village, the model representing it as if it did in an alternative reality), operating as far as possible to real rules and realistic conditions, only small and 70-odd years ago. 

 

DCC is certainly the way to go within the constraints of what is available at present. and I am considering converting the colliery fleet, which is where more effective slow control would most benefit from a 12v track supply (though it's not bad as it is).  The Hornby Pecketts are DCC-ready, and some of my other colliery kitbashes have room inside.  If this were done, the BR fleet could follow on a loco-by-loco basis, but the initial wallet hit is still a big one for me, and I am concious that I am old and not long for this world, on the home straight so to speak.  I might have another twenty years, and I might not (I'm 71 next week, BMI is higher than I'd like, and I'm diabetic, not unusual for someone my age with my lifestyle), so there may well be limited benefit in major spending this late in the game*...  Most likely I'll leave things as they are, this being the path of least resistance.  Some call it lazy, I prefer the term 'energy conservation', my energy that is...  DCC-chipped locos can be operated 'conventionally' in a DC mode, can they not?  If so I could start chipping them before buying the DCC controller.  Sorry if that's a daft question, my lack of knowledge on this subject is encyclopeadic!

 

I'm impressed with your £5 battery controller, though, CloggyDog!  My dad built me a garage layout when I was an anklebiter, and with no mains power in the garage powered it from an old 12vdc car battery which which lived on a small trolley and was trundled up to the back door of the house for recharging from a socket in the kitchen, bit Heath Robinson and typical of Captain Cowboy, but he reckoned that rectified dc as supplied by the (Triang) transformer did not provide current as smooth as the battery.  The layout worked well enough, I could get my Jintychassied Saddle Tank and Brush Type 2 to run around steadily at scale sub-walking pace, just on the edge of cogging, which they never quit managed with current supplied from a mains transformer/rectifier, so maybe Buffalo Bill Model Electrical Enterprises PLC was on to something., which would have been a first, and only...  I suspect 9v would be sufficient for my needs in DC operation, which would make the casing even smaller.  Might have a go at something like that; £5 is 'writeoffable' if it doesn't work and it would be a fun project!

 

 

*The future holds the prospect of increasing decrepitude, senility, and the final, merciful release of Death (put that scythe down, you'll hurt somebody with it).  It's being so positive as keeps me going, you know...

Edited February 20, 2023 by The Johnster

[Ravenser]

Yes, DCC chipped locos can run on DC , provided the relevant CV for this is enabled.

 

However you may need access to a DCC system to program this , as it  might not be enabled by default

 

I think the Pecketts require a small decoder with a 6 pin interface - ie an N gauge one. A quick look on Google suggests a Gaugemaster DCC93 would suit , but those cost around £25 each

 

 

[DenysW]

25 minutes ago, Ravenser said:

Yes, DCC chipped locos can run on DC , provided the relevant CV for this is enabled.

I am morally certain that this is how I burnt out the motor/chip on a Trix DCC locomotive using a Gaugemaster controller. 

 

The small print for the loco said NOT ABOVE 16V DC, and, with no load, the controller was putting out 20V.

[spamcan61]

15 minutes ago, DenysW said:

I am morally certain that this is how I burnt out the motor/chip on a Trix DCC locomotive using a Gaugemaster controller. 

 

The small print for the loco said NOT ABOVE 16V DC, and, with no load, the controller was putting out 20V.

Same with my Duette, which is now relegated to station lighting supply.

[Barclay]

For anyone who fancies experimenting, these 12vDC motor controllers are quite effective. This one cost about £6 off ebay, though I had to buy a box, wire it up and fit a DPDT reversing switch. It uses Pulse Width Modulation, but you can adjust the frequency of this to get the best result. Very smooth, just needs a 12vDC input - back to H&M  again !

 

[MJI]

I still use an old H&M controller as well as Gaugemaster.

 

I works well on many motors, better than some electronic controllers.

 

But it is not a resistsance mat horror.

[teeinox]

2 hours ago, MJI said:

I still use an old H&M controller as well as Gaugemaster.

 

I works well on many motors, better than some electronic controllers.

 

But it is not a resistsance mat horror.

I did an (unscientific) comparison between a Gaugemaster Combi and my 50-year old H&M Safety Minor – a variable transformer controller.

 

The subject was a Bachmann class 42 made in about 1998.  It has a Buhler (I think) centre motor, and a fine motor it is.

 

The test was to examine how slow and smooth a crawl speed I could get.  The result was that the Gaugemaster could start the locomotive at a slightly lower speed than the Safety Minor.  Using the Safety Minor meant the locomotive started from rest at a slightly higher speed, but could be throttled back to a very similar slow crawl speed to that yielded by the Gaugemaster.  In both cases, the crawl was splendidly slow with no halts.

 

Under Gaugemaster control, the locomotive was marginally noisier than under the Safety Minor, where it was almost silent.

So, slightly better control with the Gaugemaster, but a quieter progress with the Safety Minor.  But the differences were small.

 

[GlenPudzeoch]

Very true. My first Duette lasted from 1973 until I passed it on to the club where I was a member in 2006. Served me well, including on one of Her Majesty's war canoes when kit building a few locos in the dog watches! 

Gauge master then more recently Lenz DCC, after being gifted a couple of Lee Marsh's locos. 

[Titanius Anglesmith]

On 21/02/2023 at 10:35, Barclay said:

For anyone who fancies experimenting, these 12vDC motor controllers are quite effective. This one cost about £6 off ebay, though I had to buy a box, wire it up and fit a DPDT reversing switch. It uses Pulse Width Modulation, but you can adjust the frequency of this to get the best result. Very smooth, just needs a 12vDC input - back to H&M  again !

 

Just last weekend I wired up the same PWM controller to a new motor on SWMBO’s Unimat lathe. It never occurred to me to use one for model railway control. I’d be very interested to know how it performs compared to a traditional variable voltage controller. I’ve never been 100% satisfied with my Gaugemaster Combi as some of my locos don’t seem to agree with it. 

[Barclay]

It makes an interesting comparison - I also have a Pentroller, Gaugemaster feedback, ECM feedback, H&M Powermaster, and an AMR non-feedback. I would say that things run a little smoother and quieter than with most of the feedback controllers, though the Pentroller probably has the edge. However on a loco that really doesn't like feedback even the Pentroller causes it to surge and hunt slightly, and this one works fine. The soft start is fun to use too - it's non-linear so you're using the knob to set the desired speed and then the loco builds up to that speed. 

[TheQ]

On 20/02/2023 at 02:20, SteveyDee68 said:

And how many eBay sellers have had their old transformers/controllers checked/PAT Tested to ensure they are safe before offering them for sale? I’m sure it is the case that if someone sells an item that is faulty and it causes injury to the person they sold it to, that the seller is at fault and can be held responsible (either monetary damages or worse case scenario manslaughter). “Caveat emptor” does not apply, and pleading ignorance (“it was fine last time I used it”) does not exempt the seller from guilt, whether a business or a private individual.

 

Personally, I’d rather let the local council recycle my old transformers/controllers rather than risk selling them!

 

Steve S

I pat test all controllers used at the club and club shows.  Also I test all donated to the club for selling. So far only had one fail  and it wouldn't have killed anyone at that time...

 

Find a club donate the controllers to them, they'll PAT for when they next have a show.

 

Making a DCC controller do DC is electronically quite easy, instead of sending codes to a controller chip, you just send a varying set of pulses imitating the pulsed mark space ratio of a digital controller.

 

Oh I've often though of doing a star trek controller, glass panel, slide your fingers over the projected numbers to change speeds. Electronically not too difficult, just the shortage of time to do it.

 

Edited February 22, 2023 by TheQ