Pick-up/stopping freight trains: how was the remaining wagon load secured after part of it was delivered?

[The Stationmaster]

4 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

That's a grey area to me, at least. The Study Centre catalogue has a number of individual documents "Appendix No. n to the WTT, 18xx". Something for my next trip to Derby!

The old ba name was exactly that 'Appendix tp Section whatever of the Service or Working TT.  that changed to a Divisional coverage in LMS days based to a large extent, n but not entirely, on Pre-Group boundaries.  table A in the LMS Sectional Appendixes seems to owe some of its appoach to MR page layout and it was standardised and applied across the whole of BR with various detail changes over the years and it continues to this day in the equivalent NR documents.  It is a very readable format although for practical purposes the SNCF Livre Ligne page layoutt for that sort of information is far better and designed to be a constant reference in front of a Driver at all times.

 

The GWR and SR didn't use that sort layout and indeed the GWR S Appendixes cntinued up ttom and for some years beyonf d nationalisation as 'appendixx ro Section whatever etc.  the SR based it spublications on Divisional lines but didn't use the LMs format and I don't know how the LNEr approached the job..

 

4 hours ago, Bernard Lamb said:

I always though that hessian and burlap were local names for the same product. Although the quality could have a wide variation. A typical one use example would be potato sacks. Mail bags however were of a much better grade of material and lasted for many years.

Bernard 

Yes, mail bags - of both kinds  -were made from a sort of canvas material, nothing at all like any grade of sacking.

[The Stationmaster]

5 hours ago, MartinRS said:

This 1959 video might help. Ok, it's not a pickup freight, though it does give some pointers as to how freight was handled.  BFI Fully Fitted Freight 1957

Apart from a very young looking Dick Wilcox in his days atTtemple Meads goods theere was an interesting feature in the film which I didn't mention earlier.  

 

That was what was known 'p'rambulation' (often called 'pramming' in some depots but officially titled  'perambulation') where trailers were used to move goods smalls, and sometimes full loads of smaller items, to a wagon for loading (or from a wagon after unloading) outside a goods shed or to a different part of a goods yard.  It normally happened  in my experience when there was a lot of traffic about which couldn't be dealt with in the usual way at and at some places it was also common practice if trailers were pre-loaded waiting deliver but had to be moved out of teh way  such as getting them clear of the good shed loading deck to make space for empty trailers.

 

In BR days (and presumably earlier?) old tractor units were used for this work.  They were usually no longer road legal and definitely didn't carry Indemnity discs and they very often painted overall grey to remind people they were allowed out on public roads.

[Ken.W]

16 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

The bus thing is another nearly forgotten business. There were two big bus conglomerates outside of LT and the municipal operators, by the 1930s, Tillings, which was I think wholly owned by the railways, and BET, where the railways owned significant shareholdings in many of the companies under the umbrella.

 

Tillings became nationally owned as a result of railway nationalisation, although you would never have known it because the companies continued to look independent, and there were civil servants on the boards of multiple BET companies ……. BET eventually sold out to the government entirely, voluntarily, which is how NBC came into being.

 

The Southern had a main board director whose role was to represent them on the boards of all these bus companies, airline boards, and all the other pies that they had fingers in (Pickford, Thomas Cook etc.). So, the railways were definitely, and largely unrecognised, multi-modal transport and logistics holding companies.

 

Added to which they had symbiotic relationships with industrial firms like English Electric ….. I think the Southern may have held shares there too, and they certainly shared directors.

 

 

 

And all that's before we come to railway docks and ships

[Chas Levin]

13 hours ago, MartinRS said:

This 1959 video might help. Ok, it's not a pickup freight, though it does give some pointers as to how freight was handled.  BFI Fully Fitted Freight 1957

Thanks Martin - I'd forgotten about that film. I have it on DVD but haven't looked at it in ages, I'll have to give it another watch.

[2750Papyrus]

6 hours ago, Ken.W said:

 

And all that's before we come to railway docks and ships

and shipping, hotels, warehousing and Railway Air Services.

[The Stationmaster]

Somebody mentioned railway air services (RAS). Don't forget that they needed stamps.  In fact two lots of stamps - one from the GPO and one from the railway company.

 

But railway stamps weren't available in the early days of RAS so existing stamps for their purpose were used as on this example in my railway ephemera collection-

 

 

Subsequently the railways produced their own air mail stamps.  These show GWR examples in my railway ephemera collection -

 

The GWR obviously produced over 9,000 such stamps judging by the numbers on these examples in my collection -

 

 

[Nearholmer]

we’re well OT, at the other end of the scale from small goods, but this is such a good article, best read in the voice of a chirpy Pathe news commentator, with an imagined backing track of bouncy music.
 

https://www.railwaywondersoftheworld.com/air_services.html

Edited February 1, 2023 by Nearholmer

[Chas Levin]

5 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

Somebody mentioned railway air services (RAS). Don't forget that they needed stamps.  In fact two lots of stamps - one from the GPO and one from the railway company.

 

But railway stamps weren't available in the early days of RAS so existing stamps for their purpose were used as on this example in my railway ephemera collection-

 

 

Subsequently the railways produced their own air mail stamps.  These show GWR examples in my railway ephemera collection -

 

The GWR obviously produced over 9,000 such stamps judging by the numbers on these examples in my collection -

 

 

Aren't those wonderful looking stamps Mike, so evocative, such a classy looking drawing of such a classy looking aircraft!

[Chas Levin]

5 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

we’re well OT, at the other end of the scale from small goods, but this is such a good article, best read in the voice of a chirpy Pathe news commentator, with an imagined backing track of bouncy music.
 

https://www.railwaywondersoftheworld.com/air_services.html

Nothing wrong with being OT, IMHO, providing things are interesting and have some slight connection at any rate, both of which conditions are satisfied by this article, which is indeed splendid stuff and as you say, best read in a '30s announcer's voice, so much more attractive than the phoned in, faux-ironic drawled voiceovers that have taken over the airwaves these days.

 

[kevinlms]

Yesterday, Mrs kevinlms asked what I was reading on my phone. So I read out the following subject line.

 

Pick-up/stopping freight trains: how was the remaining wagon load secured after part of it was delivered?

 

For some strange reason, I received the weirdest of looks! That ought to put her off asking for a while.  😱

[Chas Levin]

5 hours ago, kevinlms said:

Yesterday, Mrs kevinlms asked what I was reading on my phone. So I read out the following subject line.

 

Pick-up/stopping freight trains: how was the remaining wagon load secured after part of it was delivered?

 

For some strange reason, I received the weirdest of looks! That ought to put her off asking for a while.  😱

Well of course: that's because she probbaly knew perfectly well - and far better than I did when I started this thread - that stopping freight trains would almost never part-load open wagons and that such traffic would almost always have been carried by van!

 

Women always know stuff; that's why they're always right... 🙄

Edited February 2, 2023 by Chas Levin

[The Stationmaster]

11 hours ago, Chas Levin said:

Aren't those wonderful looking stamps Mike, so evocative, such a classy looking drawing of such a classy looking aircraft!

Still firmly OT.  Yes when they came up in auction lots I freely admit to finding them irresistible although I couldn't afford to buy all of the lots but went for the three in best condition/of greatest interest.  There were a couple of other RAS 'first day covers' but I duly got the best one and it also pre-dated RAS stamps so was even more interesting (to me).

 

I'll have to have a look at my copy of the  1930s GWR Station Accountancy book of instruction to see if it covers RAS although I suspect that it won't. (and they had long gone by the time I took the (Passenger) Station Accountancy course in 1966 although a lot of that hadn't changed since the 1930s

[C126]

My Most Beloved declined the offer of her own copy of Traction (272), upon being told it was a two-parter about "London milk traffic", and a bonus about Fratton Goods Yard.  Alas, my excitement was incomprehensible.

 

Edited February 2, 2023 by C126
Typo.

[kevinlms]

7 hours ago, Chas Levin said:

Well of course: that's because she probbaly knew perfectly well - and far better than I did when I started this thread - that stopping freight trains would almost never part-load open wagons and that such traffic would almost always have been carried by van!

 

Women always know stuff; that's why they're always right... 🙄

I doubt it. When the Flying Scotsman was in Australia, I took her for a ride behind it. We had a parallel run with a Victorian Railways R Class. Which was roughly in this condition then.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victorian_Railways_R_class#/media/File:R761-mx1.jpg

 

She asked me how I knew the difference between them. I told her that the easiest way to identify, was that one was black and the other green! The green one being the FS!

[Chas Levin]

1 hour ago, kevinlms said:

I doubt it. When the Flying Scotsman was in Australia, I took her for a ride behind it. We had a parallel run with a Victorian Railways R Class. Which was roughly in this condition then.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victorian_Railways_R_class#/media/File:R761-mx1.jpg

 

She asked me how I knew the difference between them. I told her that the easiest way to identify, was that one was black and the other green! The green one being the FS!

Mind you - and I promise this will be my last OT post on this thread - we don't always know which pair of shoes or hat is the newer or more expensive, even when prompted: everyone has their specialist interests...

[kevinlms]

18 minutes ago, Chas Levin said:

Mind you - and I promise this will be my last OT post on this thread - we don't always know which pair of shoes or hat is the newer or more expensive, even when prompted: everyone has their specialist interests...

No problem here in that department. As for a desire to buy musical instruments, now that is another matter. 

AND there has been a mention of a miniature horse, which certainly ain't going to happen!

 

Told Mrs kevinlms that I'm not a farmer. Luckily she's never going to read this. 

[magmouse]

1 hour ago, kevinlms said:

AND there has been a mention of a miniature horse, which certainly ain't going to happen!

 

Are you kidding? A working miniature horse is the Holy Grail of pre-grouping modelling! Does it come in 7mm scale, or just OO?

 

Nick.

[Compound2632]

1 minute ago, magmouse said:

or just OO?

 

It would be forever knocking its knees together. P4 Pferde preferred, if you will pardon my recourse to German for the sake of alliteration.

[kevinlms]

8 hours ago, magmouse said:

 

Are you kidding? A working miniature horse is the Holy Grail of pre-grouping modelling! Does it come in 7mm scale, or just OO?

 

Nick.

A OO horse? I thought trains were to a track gauge of OO (16.5mm if you like), but apparently horses also have a track gauge that matches! Must be related to the ruts in Roman roads.

 

Other non train items are to 4mm scale, not OO.

 

😁

Edited February 3, 2023 by kevinlms
More info

[Compound2632]

7 hours ago, kevinlms said:

A OO horse? I thought trains were to a track gauge of OO (16.5mm if you like), but apparently horses also have a track gauge that matches! Must be related to the ruts in Roman roads.

 

Other non train items are to 4mm scale, not OO.

 

Don't. That gets us into the whole "00/H0 Scale" branding beloved of manufacturers since at least the time of Airfix.

[Nearholmer]

Both fully grown; TT and 0?

 

[Compound2632]

28 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

Both fully grown; TT and 0?

 

But is that TT3 or TT120?

[Nearholmer]

Do horses scale in hands to the foot?

[Michael Hodgson]

1 hour ago, Nearholmer said:

Both fully grown; TT and 0?

 

 

That's about the right scale for horse shunting on the Welsh narrow gauge lines.

[Nearholmer]

Welsh horses/ponies had a ride down, then pulled the empties back up, on several NG lines. I think on the Penrhyn they might have had to pull in both directions, but I’m not sure.