Pick-up/stopping freight trains: how was the remaining wagon load secured after part of it was delivered?

[The Stationmaster]

2 minutes ago, Chas Levin said:

Thank you again for posting this magmouse, I've just been reading through it and it's fascinating and very comprehensive.

 

I have one question which I'm sure someone here will be able to answer. There is frequent mention of Straw Pads - here's a small crop from the booklet (hope it's OK to post this here for study purposes only?) which shows them:

 

They look a little like pillows so I assume they were similar in size, but I wonder what the containing bags were made of: would they have been something like canvas, with a 'grain' or surface pattern we could model using tissue paper, or would it have been something smoother like cotton (to avoid imprinting any pattern into softer loads like the reels of paper in this diagram)?

Straw pads in my days (basically the latter half of the 1960s) were made of sacking - pretty good quality sacking which would stand up to (careful) re-use,   I seem to recall - although it's long while back - that they were included on the daily return in the same manner as wagn sheeys etc.

 

14 hours ago, Chas Levin said:

Thanks Richard, I'll take a look - though like you, I prefer printed reading wherever possible!

 

And yes, as both you and Richard say, great swathes of previously essential buildings have disappeared. It's always been the way though: think of all the early 20th century blacksmiths who didn't re-establish as motor mechanic businesses...

 

Thanks for much interesting material, Johnster, including more terminology new to me in TBCF and Secure TBCF...

Thanks Nick, I'll have a look at the BR rulebook. And I'll search for goods yard photos - I've been looking for 'goods wagons', 'wagon loads' and so forth. And yes, addictive indeed...

Good point - difficult to imagine a quarter of a million wagons, even allowing for a spread from Kings Cross to Thurso!

Pub Quiz time: iff we can agree on an average wagon length and 250,000 wagons were put end to end, how many times would they go round the Earth? 🤔

Thanks Mike, for this - and your previous - very informative post. I'm going to go and do some homework, read up a lot more and hold off adding loads to any wagons until I have a better idea of what would look right in them.

 

Thinking about the differences you mention between goods smalls and parcels, the different levels of compensation available through different consignment methods and the changes that occurred in those methods, it seems to me that as well as road haulage companies, the other big winner from the decline of the handling of goods smalls on the railways was the Post Office. Did people not tend to send parcels via the post in the earlier part of the twentieth century?

 

I think I might perhaps concentrate for the next few wagon projects on wagonload modelling as opposed to goods smalls, where it's obvious that the contents of the wagon are for one consignee. That avoids the risk of loads looking unrealistically mixed and requiring sorting or partial unloading (which I now know was unlikely to have been undertaken) and it also avoids the question of why such mixed goods smalls loads would not more properly have been carried in a closed van.

 

Thank you to everyone who has contributed such well-informed and thoughtful replies - it's very much appreciated! 😊

A couple of things -

 

You don;' need to look in the Rule Book s for loading methods and Instructions.  until 1960 they were contained in the General appendix (to the Rule book) which was as eparate publiction - the four in use until 1960 were those issued separately by each of teh Grouped companies in the late 1930s and copiously amended.  

 

From about the time of  (or perhaps a little while before) the reissue of the General Appendix in 1960 the loading Instructions mainly went into teh separate series of green covered pamphlets examples of which have been mentioned above in various posts.  I believe some of these might well be accessible on line.

 

The instructions - obviously evolving over the years for new traffics and methods plus stuff dropping out as no longer carried - were transferred to the Green pages of the 'Working Manual For Rail Staff'  (WMRS) where they still, I think, remain.

 

What you would find in older Rule Books are some entries regarding wagons to be formed in certain places in trains - most of that also went to the WMRS having been also I partially in the General Appendix.

 

One effect of BR losing goods smalls (by then called 'Sundries') to NCL was increased effort by BR to secure parcels traffic which probably increased although not by the ec xtent to which goods smalls had existed as railway traffic.   Parcels traffic and passenger rated traffic such as milk, newspaprer and so on are another large, and some times interesting area, parts of which are sometimes described by 'outsiders' as 'freight' -which they definitely were not!).

 

PS for your wagon calculation you could use the Standard Length Unit (SLU) which is 21 feet in real money (older wagons were a bit shorter).  More recent wagon fleet numbers -

1967 - 491,623. including an estimated number of privately owned wagons;

1979 -156,265 wagons including privately owned

[Chas Levin]

2 minutes ago, Fat Controller said:

Pretty certain that the ones I saw in the 1970s were hessian sacking, filled with straw. They were referred to as 'dunnage', IIRC. As well as packing between things like reels of paper, they were sometimes  put between securing ropes and loads, most notably on car windscreens.

Thanks Brian - "hessian" is exactly the word I couldn't think if - it's what I was picturing in my mind when I wrote 'canvas' and I knew it was wrong!

 

I reckon hessian in 4mm could be done using a cheaper tissue or loo roll - i.e. not the fancy, smooth, balmed type, just the budget version, so you'd just see the crosshatching if you looked closely? It'd need to be very carefully spray-painted too, to avoid clogging the pattern...

[Nearholmer]

Point of pedantry (or possibly confusion):

 

Hard-wearing sacks are made from burlap, rather than hessian, which is a very open-weave and not very robust. I think hessian was more of a single-use material, whereas burlap was for multiple re-use. 

But, some sources say they are the same thing with different names, so maybe there were simply different grades for different duties??

 

 

Edited January 31, 2023 by Nearholmer

[Chas Levin]

4 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

Straw pads in my days (basically the latter half of the 1960s) were made of sacking - pretty good quality sacking which would stand up to (careful) re-use,   I seem to recall - although it's long while back - that they were included on the daily return in the same manner as wagn sheeys etc.

 

A couple of things -

 

You don;' need to look in the Rule Book s for loading methods and Instructions.  until 1960 they were contained in the General appendix (to the Rule book) which was as eparate publiction - the four in use until 1960 were those issued separately by each of teh Grouped companies in the late 1930s and copiously amended.  

 

From about the time of  (or perhaps a little while before) the reissue of the General Appendix in 1960 the loading Instructions mainly went into teh separate series of green covered pamphlets examples of which have been mentioned above in various posts.  I believe some of these might well be accessible on line.

 

The instructions - obviously evolving over the years for new traffics and methods plus stuff dropping out as no longer carried - were transferred to the Green pages of the 'Working Manual For Rail Staff'  (WMRS) where they still, I think, remain.

 

What you would find in older Rule Books are some entries regarding wagons to be formed in certain places in trains - most of that also went to the WMRS having been also I partially in the General Appendix.

 

One effect of BR losing goods smalls (by then called 'Sundries') to NCL was increased effort by BR to secure parcels traffic which probably increased although not by the ec xtent to which goods smalls had existed as railway traffic.   Parcels traffic and passenger rated traffic such as milk, newspaprer and so on are another large, and some times interesting area, parts of which are sometimes described by 'outsiders' as 'freight' -which they definitely were not!).

 

PS for your wagon calculation you could use the Standard Length Unit (SLU) which is 21 feet in real money (older wagons were a bit shorter).  More recent wagon fleet numbers -

1967 - 491,623. including an estimated number of privately owned wagons;

1979 -156,265 wagons including privately owned

Thanks Mike, much food for thought there too. I've just been reading the BR20425 BR guidelines posted by magmouse, while also bearing in mind his and others' commetns that although that dates from 1957, it's widely believed that the rules were heavily derived from earlier eras, so I would hope they'd be reasonaly applicable to my GNR and LNER projects too, though I'll try and search out some earlier books as they'd be of cosnsiderable interest anyway, not least for earlier types of goods that were not being carried later.

Thank you also for the clarification on straw pads - I'm pretty sure I've never seen them in real life but these days, I guess you wouldn't...

[Chas Levin]

4 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

Point of pedantry (or possibly confusion):

 

Hard-wearing sacks are made from burlap, rather than hessian, which is a very open-weave and not very robust. I think hessian was more of a single-use material, whereas burlap was for multiple re-use. 

But, some sources say they are the same thing with different names, so maybe there were simply different grades for different duties??

 

 

Thank you for the clarification (I'm always happy with what others might call pedantry - I think of it as accuracy😄) and if burlap is very open-weave then it too should hopefully be representable with course tissues - I'll have a look at what others have done.

I've also got some sisal and jute fibre on order now, to represent straw, as used loose on wagon floors to cushion various types of load.

[The Stationmaster]

1 minute ago, Chas Levin said:

Thanks Mike, much food for thought there too. I've just been reading the BR20425 BR guidelines posted by magmouse, while also bearing in mind his and others' commetns that although that dates from 1957, it's widely believed that the rules were heavily derived from earlier eras, so I would hope they'd be reasonaly applicable to my GNR and LNER projects too, though I'll try and search out some earlier books as they'd be of cosnsiderable interest anyway, not least for earlier types of goods that were not being carried later.

Thank you also for the clarification on straw pads - I'm pretty sure I've never seen them in real life but these days, I guess you wouldn't...

No problem for backdating - I've got the GWR 1936 and 1920 General Appendixes and there's not much difference between the two in respect of thos sort of stuff and some of the photos used in both were taken well before the Great War.  Similarly some of it, albeit using different photos, is no different from m the stuff in my 1911 Midland Railway GA.

 

One thing which is relevant is that all this sort of stuff, sometmnes witha few minor differences at apatrticular company, was almost certainly agreed through one of the RCH committees whic set railway wide requirements and standards.  somewhere I've got an early LNER supplement to the GNR GA although I can't off hand recal any of thos sort of stuff being in it.

[Nearholmer]

I was suggesting the other way round: burlap being the tighter weave, more robust version.

 

However, I’m on the point of withdrawing the comment altogether, because I can’t get clarity on whether hessian and burlap are different things or not. I’m coming to the conclusion that both are the same thing, but that it comes (came?) in multiple grades.

[Chas Levin]

6 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

I was suggesting the other way round: burlap being the tighter weave, more robust version.

 

However, I’m on the point of withdrawing the comment altogether, because I can’t get clarity on whether hessian and burlap are different things or not. I’m coming to the conclusion that both are the same thing, but that it comes (came?) in multiple grades.

Ah, my error, apologies!

 

However, as to the difference, apparently it's just a US/UK thing:

 

Burlap is the same natural fabric as hessian, but the term is more commonly used across the atlantic in America and Canada. The origin of the word 'burlap' is still unknown, but it does date back to the 17th century were it was derived from the Middle English word 'borel' meaning coarse cloth.

[Chas Levin]

7 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

No problem for backdating - I've got the GWR 1936 and 1920 General Appendixes and there's not much difference between the two in respect of thos sort of stuff and some of the photos used in both were taken well before the Great War.  Similarly some of it, albeit using different photos, is no different from m the stuff in my 1911 Midland Railway GA.

 

One thing which is relevant is that all this sort of stuff, sometmnes witha few minor differences at apatrticular company, was almost certainly agreed through one of the RCH committees whic set railway wide requirements and standards.  somewhere I've got an early LNER supplement to the GNR GA although I can't off hand recal any of thos sort of stuff being in it.

Thanks Mike, especailly for the note regarding the LNER/GNR relevance. I'd have assumed things were fairly consistent between different companies too, because I'd imagine they'd all want to know that loads travelling within their areas and possibly arriving at their facilities were being packed and transported according to similar standards of safety and economy.

[The Stationmaster]

11 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

I was suggesting the other way round: burlap being the tighter weave, more robust version.

 

However, I’m on the point of withdrawing the comment altogether, because I can’t get clarity on whether hessian and burlap are different things or not. I’m coming to the conclusion that both are the same thing, but that it comes (came?) in multiple grades.

I still think it's a comment worth keeping in.  As mentioned previousluy I just thought of it as 'sacking' but it was recorded so it was clearly regarded (and it was) as being for reuse.  I think the last time I saw it being used when loading a wagon was as protection under the ropes used to secure a Morris Minor being sent from Reading to somewhere in Scotland.  That was a car adapated for a disabled driver so it went under the Ministry of Health flat rate for such movements as they had a contract with BR to do all the long distance moves of such vehicles.

 

There was another sort of straw based protection but it was disposable made up alomst like a rectab ngular section rope - it was used to create some space between teh large damter pipes that were used in the creation of the national gas pipeline system.  Cast iron water pupes to renew , or lay new, water mains came with standard straw pads. to protect them from rubbing excessvely in transit.  

 

In fact I've an idea the pads used with the Morris Minor might have come out of a load of pipes because we were receiving far more pads than we ever used at that time because lots of pipes were arriving and going to new housing developments.  They kept the full load gang going all day on some occasions and we pron bably had some ectra trailers in to deal with them.

 

(Cartage is another area - with considerable differences between teh sorts of vehicles used for town and countryside work plus a range of different sorts of trailers needed for use with the various artic tractors)

Edited January 31, 2023 by The Stationmaster

[Fat Controller]

11 minutes ago, Chas Levin said:

Ah, my error, apologies!

 

However, as to the difference, apparently it's just a US/UK thing:

 

Burlap is the same natural fabric as hessian, but the term is more commonly used across the atlantic in America and Canada. The origin of the word 'burlap' is still unknown, but it does date back to the 17th century were it was derived from the Middle English word 'borel' meaning coarse cloth.

'Hessian' derives directly from the German state of Hesse, where a lot of it was produced. It's still used for sacks for rice, grains and beans; when I used to deal in these, I used to have a waiting list for the empty sacks.

To further muddy the waters, 'jute' appears to be the same material.

Edited January 31, 2023 by Fat Controller

[Nearholmer]

It’s not just an US/UK/Aus thing. Wikipedia doesn’t know everything, and burlap was definitely used as a term in this country too.

 

My grandfather had “a burlap” on the front of his bike, not a “a hessian”, he being a professional gardener who always had a sack with him for carrying whatever it is gardeners carry.

Are those straw pads called “squabs”?

 

 

 

 

Edited January 31, 2023 by Nearholmer

[Chas Levin]

14 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

I still think it's a comment worth keeping in.  As mentioned previousluy I just thought of it as 'sacking' but it was recorded so it was clearly regarded (and it was) as being for reuse.  I think the last time I saw it being used when loading a wagon was as protection under the ropes used to secure a Morris Minor being sent from Reading to somewhere in Scotland.  That was a car adapated for a disabled driver so it went under the Ministry of Health flat rate for such movements as they had a contract with BR to do all the long distance moves of such vehicles.

 

There was another sort of straw based protection but it was disposable made up alomst like a rectab ngular section rope - it was used to create some space between teh large damter pipes that were used in the creation of the national gas pipeline system.  Cast iron water pupes to renew , or lay new, water mains came with standard straw pads. to protect them from rubbing excessvely in transit.  

 

In fact I've an idea the pads used with the Morris Minor might have come out of a load of pipes because we were receiving far more pads than we ever used at that time because lots of pipes were arriving and going to new housing developments.  They kept the full load gang going all day on some occasions and we pron bably had some ectra trailers in to deal with them.

 

(Cartage is another area - with considerable differences between teh sorts of vehicles used for town and countryside work plus a range of different sorts of trailers needed for use with the various artic tractors)

That rectangular section straw-based rope sounds interesting too - might see if I can find any photos of that.

 

I'm assuming from the diagrams in the BR rule Book and the straw pads were standard sack sized, sort of 75x50cm or so: does that sound about how you - or anyone else reading this who used them too - remember them, Mike?

[Chas Levin]

1 hour ago, Fat Controller said:

'Hessian' derives directly from the German state of Hesse, where a lot of it was produced. It's still used for sacks for rice, grains and beans; when I used to deal in these, I used to have a waiting list for the empty sacks.

To further muddy the waters, 'jute' appears to be the same material.

Thanks Brian - I've probably learned more about UK rail goods practices and associated topics from this thread in the last couple of days than I had in the previous couple of years!

 

Why was there a waiting list: were the sacks difficult to source in the UK at the time, or were they especially expensive?

Edited January 31, 2023 by Chas Levin

[Fat Controller]

31 minutes ago, Chas Levin said:

Thanks Brian - I've probably learned more about UK rail goods practices and associated topics from this thread in the last couple of days than I had in the previous couple of years!

 

Why was there a waiting list: were the sacks difficult to source in the UK at the time, or were they especailly expensive?

The traditional grocers and green-grocers were already in the course of disappearing (this was mid-1980s to mid 1990s) , so they were more difficult for 'Joe Public' to access. most went to allotment holders and gardeners, but amateur dramatic societies and primary schools took quite a few.

[Chas Levin]

7 minutes ago, Fat Controller said:

The traditional grocers and green-grocers were already in the course of disappearing (this was mid-1980s to mid 1990s) , so they were more difficult for 'Joe Public' to access. most went to allotment holders and gardeners, but amateur dramatic societies and primary schools took quite a few.

Ohhhh - I thought you meant that there was a waiting list for those already using them to re-use them: now I understand what you meant! Thank you...

[The Johnster]

3 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

PS for your wagon calculation you could use the Standard Length Unit (SLU) which is 21 feet in real money (older wagons were a bit shorter).

It’s an important figure, as it determines the capacity of loops and refuge sidings, and of safety overlaps for signalling purposes.  Most main lines in the UK were laid out gor a maximum length of 60 SLU plus brake van and two locomotives; where longer trains were authorised special signalling arrangements were used, including double blocking.  Some loops were 120 SLU long.  
 

As written on the driver’s slip presented to him (always him in those days) by the guard, the number was expressed as, say, ‘38 wagons, equal to 46 SLU’, because of course some wagons were longer than the standard 21’.  If the guard was left with a fractional SLU figure when he’d done his sums, he rounded up.  SLU were known as BWU, Basic Wagon Units, before Stationmaster and The Johnster worked on the railway, and the old hands still used this term in the 70s, but they were exactly the same thing.  I do not know when the change in terminology was made, but it might have been with the 1955 Rule Book. 
 

If shunting was carried out en route, as it would be with a pickup or trip hob, the guard amended the driver’s slip accordingly and initialled the amendments.   New slips were not used, so that it was at all times clear to the driver what his load, brake force, maximum vehicle speed, and length was; replacement slips might have been referred to in a hurry and confusion caused.  At least that’s what we did, believing it to be common sense good practice, never saw or heard it as an actual rule or instruction. 

Edited January 31, 2023 by The Johnster

[Compound2632]

5 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

my 1911 Midland Railway GA.

 

Does that document describe itself as "Appendix to the WTT" (in which case the MRSC has a copy) or to the Rules & Regulations?

[The Stationmaster]

4 hours ago, Chas Levin said:

That rectangular section straw-based rope sounds interesting too - might see if I can find any photos of that.

 

I'm assuming from the diagrams in the BR rule Book and the straw pads were standard sack sized, sort of 75x50cm or so: does that sound about how you - or anyone else reading this who used them too - remember them, Mike?

There are sacks, and then there are sacks - so sizes varied.  Long time since I last sawa straw oad but nearer to thew size of oue coal merchant's delivery sack rather than the sacks my uncle loaded with the grain while I was driving the combine harvester (at 13 I obviously couldn't handle the sacks, of around 1cwt each,  but I could drive the combine so he handled the sacks while I drove).

 

1 hour ago, The Johnster said:

It’s an important figure, as it determines the capacity of loops and refuge sidings, and of safety overlaps for signalling purposes.  Most main lines in the UK were laid out gor a maximum length of 60 SLU plus brake van and two locomotives; where longer trains were authorised special signalling arrangements were used, including double blocking.  Some loops were 120 SLU long.  
 

As written on the driver’s slip presented to him (always him in those days) by the guard, the number was expressed as, say, ‘38 wagons, equal to 46 SLU’, because of course some wagons were longer than the standard 21’.  If the guard was left with a fractional SLU figure when he’d done his sums, he rounded up.  SLU were known as BWU, Basic Wagon Units, before Stationmaster and The Johnster worked on the railway, and the old hands still used this term in the 70s, but they were exactly the same thing.  I do not know when the change in terminology was made, but it might have been with the 1955 Rule Book. 
 

If shunting was carried out en route, as it would be with a pickup or trip hob, the guard amended the driver’s slip accordingly and initialled the amendments.   New slips were not used, so that it was at all times clear to the driver what his load, brake force, maximum vehicle speed, and length was; replacement slips might have been referred to in a hurry and confusion caused.  At least that’s what we did, believing it to be common sense good practice, never saw or heard it as an actual rule or instruction. 

Very few mainlines in Britain were laid out with a specific general length of refuge siding in mind (loops were very uncommon pre the 1939-45 war when refuge sidings in many places were converted to loops although some had been altered in the 1930s).  And in facta whole of variety of loop and refuge siding lengths existed well into the diesel age.

 

It was the responsibility of Drivers and Guards to be aware of the available standage inany such location - these were show - at various times - either in the Working Timetable or the Sectional Appendix.  In theory the length of the shortest refuge siding or loop determined the maximum permitted length ofa freight train over any section of route however in ractical terms the short ones were always gnored for train planning purposes.  In addition trains could be planned to run exceeding the length Limit but if that hadn't been shown in the Loads Book or in a Notice Control would issue suitable telegraphic/telephonic advice to signal boxes.

 

As an extreme example of this in the days when i was in charge of freight train planning on the Western Region in the late 1980s/early '90s we had an overall length limit of .70 SLUs east of Reading but we regularly planned trains of 100 SLUS plus one or two on mist days of 120 SLUs (the longest freight trains on BR as it happened) - carefully timetabled to avoid any need for them to dive into a loop (some of which could hold no more than 60 SLUs).  But in the end it was still officially down to a Driver to query the route if a signal was off for somewhere his train wouldn't. 

 

As I 've had to point out before  to correct Johnster a BWU (Basic Wagin Unit) was a measure of weight *used in some train load calculations at one time) - it was never  a measure of length.  In fact BWUs and SLUs  existed alongside each other in some Freight Train Loads Books in the early part of the 1960s as the different pre-nationalisation systems of freight train load calculations werere rationalised.   While I can't remember it being mentioned to us on the 1 day training course for the new sysem the BWU vanished from use with the arrival of a new Freight Train Loads calculation system introduced in 1968  That change also introduced the Driver's Slip which was prepared by the Guard, or  a Train Preparer, to give a Driver clear, written, information of what his train load was in terms of weight and length.

[The Stationmaster]

25 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Does that document describe itself as "Appendix to the WTT" (in which case the MRSC has a copy) or to the Rules & Regulations?

'... to the Working Timetable'.  

 

But interestingly it includes items specifically, and generally, relevant to the Rule Book.  But it also includes the sort og f items of alocal nature that would be found in a Sectuional Appendix.  Did the Midllad have a subsidiary system of Sectional Appendixes?

[MartinRS]

This 1959 video might help. Ok, it's not a pickup freight, though it does give some pointers as to how freight was handled.  BFI Fully Fitted Freight 1957

Edited January 31, 2023 by MartinRS
typo

[Compound2632]

40 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

Did the Midllad have a subsidiary system of Sectional Appendixes?

 

That's a grey area to me, at least. The Study Centre catalogue has a number of individual documents "Appendix No. n to the WTT, 18xx". Something for my next trip to Derby!

[Ian Smeeton]

I reckon that 250,000 wagons would equal 994 miles, so probably all the way to Thurso from Kings Cross and most of the way back to Edinburgh.

 

Regards

 

Ian

[Bernard Lamb]

7 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

Point of pedantry (or possibly confusion):

 

Hard-wearing sacks are made from burlap, rather than hessian, which is a very open-weave and not very robust. I think hessian was more of a single-use material, whereas burlap was for multiple re-use. 

But, some sources say they are the same thing with different names, so maybe there were simply different grades for different duties??

 

 

I always though that hessian and burlap were local names for the same product. Although the quality could have a wide variation. A typical one use example would be potato sacks. Mail bags however were of a much better grade of material and lasted for many years.

Bernard 

[Nearholmer]

You could well be right, I’ve come to think.