Hornby 2023 - Coaching stock

[ThaneofFife]

those 125 executive liveried mk3s look so attractive - shame none in mk3a form just with Inter-City on them.  would look great behind an 87 or 90.

 

and do those ones shown have the silver window frames?    they look like they do......very cool. 

[frobisher]

1 hour ago, ThaneofFife said:

those 125 executive liveried mk3s look so attractive - shame none in mk3a form just with Inter-City on them.  would look great behind an 87 or 90.

 

It all depends what's announced for Oxford (Toy Fair..?) I suppose (Hornby only lists Intercity Swallow at the moment).

 

['CHARD]

2 hours ago, JDW said:

I've just commented over on the other Hornby thread too, but was the DB/EWS 67+Mk3s+DVT ever even called the "business train"? Management or corporate train maybe. I'm not sure I've ever heard that term used before, though if it had I doubt it would have been to describe the Mk2s in the Hornby announcement, which surely represent charter stock as mentioned above. 

 

Most usual parlance was 'The Company Train,' although it's also referred to as the Management or Executive train outside of EWS/ DBS.

 

[surfsup]

3 hours ago, black and decker boy said:

Bit confused by the EWS Business Ciach pack in EWS lined maroon.

 

the EWS / DB Business train is mk3 based. The mark 2s were used on chargers and on the Fife circle Scotrail loco hauled services. I think none are now in EWS service.

 

Presume it’s just wrong description by Hornby and not Mk2s masquerading as MK3s?

 

I too am rather puzzled by these. I mean, while they look rather nice, they have a somewhat limited appeal. I believe EWS repainted these sometime around the mid to late 2000s in an attempt to try and gain a foot in the lucrative charter market. A short time later, they joined into an alliance with Riviera Trains who had a much much bigger fleet of Mk2s. So, apart from a few rail tours in 2007/2008, and a short period of hire to Grand Central in 2008 working with TnT 47s, I cant find any other uses for these Mk2s until the Fife Circle contract came up - and even then they were a mix of the EWS ones and Cargo D's Blue Grey vehicles. So they've roughly spent more time in storage at Toton (& being heavily vandalised at Thornton Yard where DB Dumped them after they lost the Fife Circle to DRS / Riveria) than actually turning a wheel in service. 

 

I'd have thought examples from the more widespread Riviera Trains & Cargo D staple would have been a better bet - Ex Virgin, Ex Anglia, Ex FGW & BR Blue Grey than some fairly lightly used Mk2s. Actually, having seen Hornby's attempt at FGW Fag Packet on the Mk3s, I think i'd other wait for Bachmann to produce those! 

 

 

[Simon Bendall]

1 hour ago, surfsup said:

 

A short time later, they joined into an alliance with Riviera Trains who had a much much bigger fleet of Mk2s. So, apart from a few rail tours in 2007/2008, and a short period of hire to Grand Central in 2008 working with TnT 47s, I cant find any other uses for these Mk2s until the Fife Circle contract came up - and even then they were a mix of the EWS ones and Cargo D's Blue Grey vehicles.

 

One of the BSOs also featured in the FGW Taunton/Weymouth/Paignton workings but, yes, the Fife Circle was their main employment after the charter use dried up. Some still survive in store at Fawley and Burton.

[WCML100]

Although the EWS Maroon Mk2's are a nice to have - I think as mentioned above other liveries would have been better due to the limitations of these in real life operations... maybe should have been individual releases rather than in packs as they also did find their way into random mixed rakes as well so maybe have been more appeal in to buy individual examples to buyers as well as those who want a full matching rake etc.

 

To be honest I think Hornby have missed a trick in not doing a re-tooled mk3 sleeper. all the various BR liveries as well the different incarnations of the Caledonian Sleeper operations and FGW Night riviera - missing a trick here - especially when these all seem to go for a pretty penny these days for a very old tooled model not up to todays standards...

 

[scottrains29]

Hopefully the EWS coach pack uses the same tooling as the EWS Train pack. Annoyingly, their fairly recent Northern Belle Train train pack used Airfix mk2s whereas the coach pack used the newer design clever mk2s.

 

I'll probably try and get a set to recreate the Fife circle Train but I'd have preferred if Hornby had gone for coaches that are actually needed to complete previous Hornby release.

For example more Northern Belle coaches (mk1BG, mk2s, mk3 sleepers) all of which would sell well and wouldn't require any new tooling.

Or Caledonian swoosh and First group mk2s to complete Hornby's previous mk3 sleepers.

 

After waiting for Hornby to tool up the mk2 rfb I've finally done what others have and bought the Bachmann one to finally complete my Hornby Virgin rake. Talking of missing Hornby Virgin coaches It's now over 23 years since they released the scale length Virgin HST mk3 (with silver window frames) yet they have still never produced a matching TGS (with silver window frames) needed to complete the rake despite having the tooling.

 

 

[surfsup]

11 hours ago, WCML100 said:

Although the EWS Maroon Mk2's are a nice to have - I think as mentioned above other liveries would have been better due to the limitations of these in real life operations... maybe should have been individual releases rather than in packs as they also did find their way into random mixed rakes as well so maybe have been more appeal in to buy individual examples to buyers as well as those who want a full matching rake etc.

 

To be honest I think Hornby have missed a trick in not doing a re-tooled mk3 sleeper. all the various BR liveries as well the different incarnations of the Caledonian Sleeper operations and FGW Night riviera - missing a trick here - especially when these all seem to go for a pretty penny these days for a very old tooled model not up to todays standards...

 

 

Even Riviera Train's Great Briton rake would have been more preferable seeing how much more widespread that has been. Oh well, only the wonders of Margate will know why they were chosen and how well these Mk2s sell. Perhaps Hornby would be better off taking the Bachmann approach and doing regional specialities - I.e these as a Fife Circle set for Scotland?

 

Speaking of Mk3s - I still cant get my head around what Hornby are / aren't doing with the Oxford Loco Hauled Mk3. If only they'd re-tool the chassis, bring it into the main range and produce many more liveries on it. At the moment it seems rather odd, almost stuck out on a limb, in the Oxford range. I'm sure Oxford had planned a sleeper version too? 

[surfsup]

9 hours ago, scottrains29 said:

 

After waiting for Hornby to tool up the mk2 rfb I've finally done what others have and bought the Bachmann one to finally complete my Hornby Virgin rake. Talking of missing Hornby Virgin coaches It's now over 23 years since they released the scale length Virgin HST mk3 (with silver window frames) yet they have still never produced a matching TGS (with silver window frames) needed to complete the rake despite having the tooling.

 

 

 

That's another surprise actually - still no new Virgin HST. Back in the day (the mid 2000s at least) you'd be almost guaranteed a Virgin Trains Mk3 or HST nearly every year, now it seems to have disappeared. Hopefully, should Hornby chose to do one next year, they'll not only tool up the TGS but produce the right 4 windowed TRSB Buffet at last - They certainly have the tooling as they seem to be producing the 408XX in LSL guises!  

[andyman7]

The blue-grey HST set is missing a vehicle. Apart from the very brief 1976/77 inception period where there were 2 catering vehicles in Western Region formations, the original WR formation was TF-TF-Buffet-TS-TS-TS-TS. When the the TGS vehicles were built they were added to the sets as a fifth second class coach, so there were still 4 x TS in the formation; but Hornby is only proposing three. The 'executive' livery version gets all four plus the TGS so I'm not sure why the omission.

 

 

[Bob83a]

Has anyone else noticed that the Blue/Grey Mk3 have different R numbers where as the Executive one have the Base number plus different suffixes.

 

R40391/2/3 as apposed to R40238 -/A/B/C

 

Normally different R numbers would have indicated something significantly different, livery etc and a different suffix would indicate different running numbers etc

[jonathan452]

14 hours ago, andyman7 said:

The blue-grey HST set is missing a vehicle. Apart from the very brief 1976/77 inception period where there were 2 catering vehicles in Western Region formations, the original WR formation was TF-TF-Buffet-TS-TS-TS-TS. When the the TGS vehicles were built they were added to the sets as a fifth second class coach, so there were still 4 x TS in the formation; but Hornby is only proposing three. The 'executive' livery version gets all four plus the TGS so I'm not sure why the omission.

 

 

The Western Region HST's were seven coaches throughout the Blue/Grey era, even after the arrival of the TGS vehicles. Only those sets transferred to the Eastern Region/Midland Main Line would have gained the eighth coach (facilitated by the disbanding of two North-East South-West sets and the building of nineteen additional TS vehicles).

 

Around ten (TRUB West of England) sets were lengthened to eight coaches around 1986 with spare vehicles (including converted TGS's). By then these were in Inter-City executive colours.

 

The remaining Western Region sets only became eight coaches in the early nineties following the post East Coast electrification re-allocations.

 

This video from 1985 helps to clarify the matter.

Edited January 12, 2023 by jonathan452

[andyman7]

1 hour ago, jonathan452 said:

The Western Region HST's were seven coaches throughout the Blue/Grey era, even after the arrival of the TGS vehicles. Only those sets transferred to the Eastern Region/Midland Main Line would have gained the eighth coach (facilitated by the disbanding of two North-East South-West sets and the building of nineteen additional TS vehicles).

 

Around ten (TRUB West of England) sets were lengthened to eight coaches around 1986 with spare vehicles (including converted TGS's). By then these were in Inter-City executive colours.

 

The remaining Western Region sets only became eight coaches in the early nineties following the post East Coast electrification re-allocations.

 

This video from 1985 helps to clarify the matter.

Thanks - that's useful ( and corrects my faulty memory). 7 coaches is already quite long enough for an HST!

[montyburns56]

I'm guessing that it's just a TSO with the windows painted over, but I'm surprised that no one seems to be commenting on the MK2 RLO Sleeper coach, as it's useful if you want to represent the Scottish sleeper trains (even if it's slightly inaccurate) .

[scouse889]

2 hours ago, montyburns56 said:

I'm guessing that it's just a TSO with the windows painted over, but I'm surprised that no one seems to be commenting on the MK2 RLO Sleeper coach, as it's useful if you want to represent the Scottish sleeper trains (even if it's slightly inaccurate) .

 

That was part of the 2022 range, so not announced this week, which is probably why? And although they did sleepers in Scotrail Whoosh and FGW livery, they never did representations of the matching Mark II coaches to enable a prototypical train to be formed.

Provided they are appropriately priced, I'm ok with them painting over the windows/using artistic license to produce representations of unique or unusual vehicles which would otherwise probably be unfeasable to tool up - for example the vehicles in the NMT flying Banana HST and Kernow's Night Riviera Day Coach pack in GWR green, all of which allow reasonable representation of these trains to be run, albeit not completely accurate to the prototype.

In contrast I'm not ok when, for example, they use the wrong roof tooling on the Mark IV IC Swallow FO vehicles (and even then use it the wrong way round!) as these are just sloppy and careless mistakes rather than up-front compromises made to enable production of a model.

[surfsup]

4 hours ago, montyburns56 said:

I'm guessing that it's just a TSO with the windows painted over, but I'm surprised that no one seems to be commenting on the MK2 RLO Sleeper coach, as it's useful if you want to represent the Scottish sleeper trains (even if it's slightly inaccurate) .

 

As @scouse889 mentions, the RLO was in the 2022 range. Fortunately, there's nothing wrong with that RLO as long as the numbers are correct - 6700/01 were built with blanking plates fitted, whereas the later builds had the windows removed and plated over altogether. Not my photo, but here is 6700 at Carlisle back in First ScotRail Caledonian Sleeper livery: 

 

So fully accurate - I hope, as I spoke to Simon about this one (along with switching the TSO masquerading as a BUO into BSO 9497). 

 

 

 

[scottrains29]

1 hour ago, surfsup said:

So fully accurate - I hope, as I spoke to Simon about this one (along with switching the TSO masquerading as a BUO into BSO 9497).

That was a good move when Hornby changed to the BSO after much criticism. Their original BUO looked nothing like a BUO. They even called it a GWR Caledonian sleeper?! I don't think Simon is a details man, certainly not when it comes to modern image!

Maybe one day Hornby (or someone else) might properly tool up the BUO.

 

I think RLO 6702/3 also had the blanking plates so the forthcoming R40228A should be relatively accurate.

 

Hopefully they'll also do some (accurate) mk2s in the older Caledonian Sleeper liveries.

I still don't know why they haven't done the much requested RFB mk2 as this was also occasionally seen in sleeper rakes, as well as required to complete other rakes that Hornby have produced (Intercity, Virgin xc, Northern Belle and so on).

[surfsup]

26 minutes ago, scottrains29 said:

That was a good move when Hornby changed to the BSO after much criticism. Their original BUO looked nothing like a BUO. They even called it a GWR Caledonian sleeper?! I don't think Simon is a details man, certainly not when it comes to modern image!

Maybe one day Hornby (or someone else) might properly tool up the BUO.

 

I think RLO 6702/3 also had the blanking plates so the forthcoming R40228A should be relatively accurate.

 

Hopefully they'll also do some (accurate) mk2s in the older Caledonian Sleeper liveries.

I still don't know why they haven't done the much requested RFB mk2 as this was also occasionally seen in sleeper rakes, as well as required to complete other rakes that Hornby have produced (Intercity, Virgin xc, Northern Belle and so on).

Indeed it was - being a big fan of the Caledonian Sleeper Midnight Teal livery, I couldn’t let the produce that hash of a Mk2 (for anyone wondering, it would have been a TSO with the BUO printed on the side - eg, doors windows and all, not a fully tooled up BUO), so had to drop him an email as soon as that came out. Luckily Hornby already had the BSO in their range so changing it made sense - even if, it is a little incorrect for the full train. In reality, The BSO rarely ventured south of Edinburgh, having spent most of there time on the Fort William seated portion, along with an RLO which was added / taken off at Edinburgh. But what’s better - an accurate CS vehicle which, along with a RLO & Sleepers allows you to model the Fort William portion correctly, or a rather awful Mk2 TSO masquerading badly as something it wasn’t. 
 

Now we just need that 73/9 now! But that’s for a different thread! 
 

Back to the 2023 topic, I was browsing through the catalog earlier and noticed a slightly bizarre array of images for the VTEC / LNER / EMR Mk3s - Did they announce some last year using the new tooling? The catalog photos seem to be a mix of new tooling Mk3 and old Limby efforts. 

[WCML100]

7 hours ago, surfsup said:

Indeed it was - being a big fan of the Caledonian Sleeper Midnight Teal livery, I couldn’t let the produce that hash of a Mk2 (for anyone wondering, it would have been a TSO with the BUO printed on the side - eg, doors windows and all, not a fully tooled up BUO), so had to drop him an email as soon as that came out. Luckily Hornby already had the BSO in their range so changing it made sense - even if, it is a little incorrect for the full train. In reality, The BSO rarely ventured south of Edinburgh, having spent most of there time on the Fort William seated portion, along with an RLO which was added / taken off at Edinburgh. But what’s better - an accurate CS vehicle which, along with a RLO & Sleepers allows you to model the Fort William portion correctly, or a rather awful Mk2 TSO masquerading badly as something it wasn’t. 
 

Now we just need that 73/9 now! But that’s for a different thread! 
 

Back to the 2023 topic, I was browsing through the catalog earlier and noticed a slightly bizarre array of images for the VTEC / LNER / EMR Mk3s - Did they announce some last year using the new tooling? The catalog photos seem to be a mix of new tooling Mk3 and old Limby efforts. 

 

Surely all would be new tooling?? Hornby never seem to surprise with their inaccuracies or lack of proof reading their content...

 

[scouse889]

9 hours ago, surfsup said:

Indeed it was - being a big fan of the Caledonian Sleeper Midnight Teal livery, I couldn’t let the produce that hash of a Mk2 (for anyone wondering, it would have been a TSO with the BUO printed on the side - eg, doors windows and all, not a fully tooled up BUO), so had to drop him an email as soon as that came out. Luckily Hornby already had the BSO in their range so changing it made sense - even if, it is a little incorrect for the full train. In reality, The BSO rarely ventured south of Edinburgh, having spent most of there time on the Fort William seated portion, along with an RLO which was added / taken off at Edinburgh. But what’s better - an accurate CS vehicle which, along with a RLO & Sleepers allows you to model the Fort William portion correctly, or a rather awful Mk2 TSO masquerading badly as something it wasn’t. 
 

Now we just need that 73/9 now! But that’s for a different thread! 
 

Back to the 2023 topic, I was browsing through the catalog earlier and noticed a slightly bizarre array of images for the VTEC / LNER / EMR Mk3s - Did they announce some last year using the new tooling? The catalog photos seem to be a mix of new tooling Mk3 and old Limby efforts. 

 

They have done that many VTEC/LNER Mark 3 runs and only the most recent one was with the new tooling. So here you have a mixture of artwork for models from the fourth batch (R429C/R4930B/R4931H/R4931J/R4931K/R4932B/R4933B - late 1990s Hornby tooling plus ex-Lima mouldings) and the fifth batch (R40248/R40249/R40249A/R40249B/R40249C/R40250/R40251/R40252/R40269 - all the new 2022 Hornby toolings).

The fourth batch are either still in production or there's simply loads left - they are all still in stock at Hornby and just about everywhere else, and evidently Hornby consider them to be current "in catalogue" items.

All a bit confusing really.....!

[phil-b259]

17 hours ago, scouse889 said:

 

The fourth batch are either still in production or there's simply loads left 

 

NOTHING is in continuous production. these days!

 

When Hornby order xxxx number of models they all get delivered as one huge batch not as dribs and drabs throughout the year.

 

That is in part because all manufacturing is outsourced these days - and no factory owner is going to want to waste time doing small batches that tie up machinery or which needs frequent swapping of toolings throughout the year.

 

Hence why, if a model is perceived to be desirable, pre-ordering is recommended - because once the manufacturer has sold that entire batch there WON'T be any more made for a good few years.

 

However if models are slow sellers its entirely possible that one batch might well  sit on shelves for a couple of years or so - and in such case then as long as the manufacturer has stocks then they might well include it in their catalogue / on their website / in their online shop as a way of trying to shift them.

 

But in this case such a strategy has given rise to a confusing catalogue - normally when a manufacturer wants to release an upgraded product they wait till the previous incarnation is no longer in stock with themselves (if retailers still have stocks then technically that doesn't matter to the manufacturers been counters). However with Hornby announcing their much improved Mk3s in 2022 and them still having stocks of the previous product available then  its inevitable both variants will be included in the 2023 catalogue.

 

 

 

[KymN]

I would like to adda few more vehicles to my L&MR fleet; however, Hornby's insistence on train packs makes that difficult. I would like a mail coach, perhaps a second class coach and certainly the Queen Adelaide coach.  I do not want any more Rocket locomotives, nor First and Third class coaches.  Furthermore, the rubbish plastic couplers have to go.  How about some magnetic chain couplers and NEM pockets Hornby?

[JeremyKarl]

On 10/01/2023 at 07:28, DougN said:

Interesting to see the teaks back I was thinking its time for them to be back in. Well done Hornby!... ok their profile is a bit off. But as i have been running my set recently i was thinking another set would be nice. I hope their finish matches or is very close to the original releases. 

Agree. I note that as with the previous batch, Hornby no longer make the Sleeping Car that was part of the original batch of Gresley coaches (R4174/A/B/C). It makes me wonder if they lost the tooling for this coach or if they just didn't sell well enough to justify further productions of them? It would be nice to see some other variations of these Gresley coaches to match these ones in future.  

JK

[Standards_in_OO]

On 16/02/2023 at 18:33, JeremyKarl said:

Agree. I note that as with the previous batch, Hornby no longer make the Sleeping Car that was part of the original batch of Gresley coaches (R4174/A/B/C). It makes me wonder if they lost the tooling for this coach or if they just didn't sell well enough to justify further productions of them? It would be nice to see some other variations of these Gresley coaches to match these ones in future.  

JK

I’m not an expert on this but wouldn’t the Sleeping Cars effectively be on its own train? If so, then several running numbers would be needed to make it even look a bit realistic and I can imagine they don’t sell enough to warrant doing that. 

[Rhydgaled]

Not sure if this is a recent update or has been there for a while but Hornby now seem to have photos of actual models (rather than just side-on Photoshop graphics) on their website for both the EWS 'business train' train pack (with 67) and coach pack. Can those who are familiar with these things please let me know whether the coaches are the ones with fictional solebars (mark 2e?) or the more-accurate models (mark 2d/2f?)?