Hornby 2023 - Bluetooth decoders and control system

[Porfuera]

10 minutes ago, WIMorrison said:

 

That would be quad-mode not tri-mode ;)

 

1) BLE control using a DCC supply & app

2) BLE control using a DC supply & app

3) Normal DCC control without app

4) Analogue DC control

 

😄

 

 

 

"BLE control", "DCC control", "Analogue control" - that's three where I come from.

 

They key word is "control", not "supply" - you've only listed two type of supply (DCC and DC) so that'd make it bi-mode in your world 😄

Edited April 23, 2023 by Porfuera

[WIMorrison]

In this case they are not the same because you are utilising different power sources, and in the case of a decoder the power source is important because it enables different functionality on a decoder.

 

 

[Porfuera]

7 minutes ago, WIMorrison said:

In this case they are not the same because you are utilising different power sources, and in the case of a decoder the power source is important because it enables different functionality on a decoder.

 

Clearly that is wrong - the idea was that these chips could be run under BLE control with either DCC or DC power and the result would be the same.

 

Unfortunately that has proven not to be the case. Whether this will change in the future is something we will have to wait to see.

 

EDIT: DC might still work but there may have to be some sort of list of approved DC controllers that can be used.

 

Edited April 23, 2023 by Porfuera

[Pmorgancym]

56 minutes ago, Porfuera said:

 

 

Sorry I'm still confused and I don't understand your answer to @spamcan61's question. To me tri-mode included both of those things from the start (I'm sure others have listed these before so apologies for this):

 

1) BLE control using either a DCC supply or a DC supply turned up to maximum (which is (2) above).

2) 'Normal' DCC control

3) Analogue DC control (as in "turn the knob and the loco goes faster" which is (1) above).

 

If tri-mode included both of these things from the start then I don't understand your "smoke and mirrors" reference and what you mean when you say that they are now claiming that tri-mode only referred to analogue DC control (which in itself is generally not considered to be a good thing and is something that Hornby actually advise against using).

 

Hornby clearly said from the start that you could use BLE control with a DC supply turned up to max (although there were caveats to that as in it wouldn't necessarily work very well or at all or there would be no sound) and it is unfortunate that this has turned out to have been a Very Bad Idea, but there is not much that can be done about that now and accusing them of "smoke and mirrors" isn't going to help, no matter how frustrated you feel because it now won't work in your particular situation.

It's not necessarily Hornby I'm accusing of smoke and mirrors they've remain stoic throughout.  It's more those who advocate for them.  If 'DC' operation  of a chip fitting loco via a standard DC controller is so bad that 'manufactures disable the option as a default' you'd hardly advertise it as a feature.

 

 

[Porfuera]

2 minutes ago, Pmorgancym said:

If 'DC' operation  of a chip fitting loco via a standard DC controller is so bad that 'manufactures disable the option as a default' you'd hardly advertise it as a feature.

 

It is worse than that in a way - they didn't even disable it (I don't think they could because I think I read that CV12 is needed for BLE) so Hornby offered it as an option and then advised people not to use it (except for running in - but wouldn't that ring alarm bells?).

 

It is almost like they thought that "Tri-Mode" sounded so impressive that they wanted to use the phrase for marketing and put it on the box but in reality one of the modes shouldn't really be used but you only find out when you read the small print in the instructions. Or if you don't read the instructions then you find out when the chip fails.

 

It was all somewhat unfortunate to say the least.

[Pmorgancym]

4 minutes ago, Porfuera said:

 

It is worse than that in a way - they didn't even disable it (I don't think they could because I think I read that CV12 is needed for BLE) so Hornby offered it as an option and then advised people not to use it (except for running in - but wouldn't that ring alarm bells?).

 

It is almost like they thought that "Tri-Mode" sounded so impressive that they wanted to use the phrase for marketing and put it on the box but in reality one of the modes shouldn't really be used but you only find out when you read the small print in the instructions. Or if you don't read the instructions then you find out when the chip fails.

 

It was all somewhat unfortunate to say the least.

The odd thi g is this, look through your car hand book.or any device you have in the house and I will wages you will not find a paragraph 

'In theory it may be feasible to....' 'this is not recommened' followed by instructions on how to do it.

[Ron Ron Ron]

6 hours ago, spamcan61 said:

……pitched as a benefit of HM7000, and is printed on the packaging……

The wording on the packaging ….

”TRI-MODE   Functions with HM / DCC app control, DCC and DC controllers”

…is vague twaddle.

It doesn’t say anything specific..

Very poor on Hornby’s part.

It’s no wonder people are reading whatever they want from that poor description.

 

.

[WIMorrison]

I think it is excellent marketing - sufficiently woolly and ambiguous to ensure that all the complaints here will come to nowt.

 

It does all of the items mentioned, it works with their app, it works with DCC and it works with DC - perhaps not in the way that some people here want it to, but the fact is that it meets all of these packaging statements without question 😉

[spamcan61]

13 minutes ago, WIMorrison said:

I think it is excellent marketing - sufficiently woolly and ambiguous to ensure that all the complaints here will come to nowt.

 

It does all of the items mentioned, it works with their app, it works with DCC and it works with DC - perhaps not in the way that some people here want it to, but the fact is that it meets all of these packaging statements without question 😉

It's a bit more than wilful misinterpretation though, isn't it. As I pointed out earlier, Hornby's own publicity material clearly shows 'dc controller at full throttle' as a means of powering HM7000. If that was never the intention why are 'compatible' dc controllers still being investigated?

 

If the intention was actually to allow dc controllers to control HM7000 chipped locos in the normal manner ( back to my scenario 1) , is that working and robust? 

 

Agree that the marketing waffle on the box  is sufficiently vague to allow anything.

[Legend]

1 hour ago, spamcan61 said:

It's a bit more than wilful misinterpretation though, isn't it. As I pointed out earlier, Hornby's own publicity material clearly shows 'dc controller at full throttle' as a means of powering HM7000. If that was never the intention why are 'compatible' dc controllers still being investigated?

 

But are compatible DC controllers being investigated, Spamcan61? Great if they are and we get a resolution on this . I suspect the whole idea with DC Controllers will be quietly dropped .

[rmnik]

16 minutes ago, Legend said:

 I suspect the whole idea with DC Controllers will be quietly dropped .

I hope that the idea of DC PSUs won't be dropped as I thought that this would be an excellent and cost effective way for a DCC Sound O gauge shunting plank. Everything on hold at the moment as my chosen mobile is Android.

[Ron Ron Ron]

Just now, rmnik said:

I hope that the idea of DC PSUs won't be dropped as I thought that this would be an excellent and cost effective way for a DCC Sound O gauge shunting plank. Everything on hold at the moment as my chosen mobile is Android.

 

That won't be dropped, as it's fundamental to one of the primary purposes of this technology.

Stable, regulated fixed voltage PSU's, with overload protection, should meet minimum criteria though, just as a DCC system requires a power supply meeting similar defined criteria.

Hornby have cautioned against using unsuitable PSU's and naturally recommend their own, but suitable alternatives are available.

 

 

.

[Pmorgancym]

11 hours ago, WIMorrison said:

I think it is excellent marketing - sufficiently woolly and ambiguous to ensure that all the complaints here will come to nowt.

 

It does all of the items mentioned, it works with their app, it works with DCC and it works with DC - perhaps not in the way that some people here want it to, but the fact is that it meets all of these packaging statements without question 😉

Disingenuous is the word not excellent.  OK its great if you're in the 'make a quick buck then shut up shop' fraternity.  I dunno maybe that's where Hornby are right now... Making the books look good with quick sales of HM7000 and TT120 prior to selling up?

[Pmorgancym]

9 hours ago, Legend said:

But are compatible DC controllers being investigated, Spamcan61? Great if they are and we get a resolution on this . I suspect the whole idea with DC Controllers will be quietly dropped .

I suspect no such investigation  is underway (I honestly dont believe they never tried the chips with something other than a Hornby controller, it just seems mad).  There's been no public statement, no comments that 'using these devices on DC controllers will invalidate warrenty' etc.  I initally put this down to this all coming to the fore over easter.

[Legend]

33 minutes ago, Pmorgancym said:

I suspect no such investigation  is underway (I honestly dont believe they never tried the chips with something other than a Hornby controller, it just seems mad).  There's been no public statement, no comments that 'using these devices on DC controllers will invalidate warrenty' etc.  I initally put this down to this all coming to the fore over easter.

 

Looks like the traditional Hornby Ostrich approach then 

[Porfuera]

39 minutes ago, Pmorgancym said:

OK its great if you're in the 'make a quick buck then shut up shop' fraternity.  I dunno maybe that's where Hornby are right now... Making the books look good with quick sales of HM7000 and TT120 prior to selling up?

 

Really?!? I know you're a bit upset at not being able to run chipped locos on DC but that is a hell of a stretch.

 

I'd say they're losing money if they're having to replace decoders due to people trying to run them on DC controllers (although we don't know the actual numbers or how much this is being hyped by social media).

[Porfuera]

2 minutes ago, Legend said:

Looks like the traditional Hornby Ostrich approach then 

 

And you're drawing that conclusion from what besides his 'I suspect...' statement...?

[Pmorgancym]

4 minutes ago, Porfuera said:

 

Really?!? I know you're a bit upset at not being able to run chipped locos on DC but that is a hell of a stretch.

 

I'd say they're losing money if they're having to replace decoders due to people trying to run them on DC controllers (although we don't know the actual numbers or how much this is being hyped by social media).

It doesn't smack.of a lasting commitment to the product.

 

I think one of the big problems is Samtrains being one of the afflicted, it corrupts sensible debate, you have his follows who will say he's a credible source and his detractors saying he isn't.  For someone who likes a sensationalist video he's never followed it up or clarified it.

[Legend]

1 minute ago, Porfuera said:

 

And you're drawing that conclusion from what besides his 'I suspect...' statement...?

 

Just the complete lack of response to the issue . Head in the sand till the furore dies down approach 

[Porfuera]

2 minutes ago, Pmorgancym said:

I think one of the big problems is Samtrains being one of the afflicted, it corrupts sensible debate, you have his follows who will say he's a credible source and his detractors saying he isn't.  For someone who likes a sensationalist video he's never followed it up or clarified it.

 

I think you've just made my point for me...

[HExpressD]

2 minutes ago, Pmorgancym said:

I think one of the big problems is Samtrains being one of the afflicted, it corrupts sensible debate, you have his follows who will say he's a credible source and his detractors saying he isn't.  For someone who likes a sensationalist video he's never followed it up or clarified it.

Well, I think therein is a decent indication of the 'issue'. If there is a stick to beat Hornby up with Sam never fails to turn up with a log (as well as ludicrous hyperbole). Considering he hasn't mentioned it again perhaps it is not as big of an issue as some are making it out to be (and seemingly wanting it to be?)

[Porfuera]

2 minutes ago, Legend said:

Just the complete lack of response to the issue . Head in the sand till the furore dies down approach 

 

Others would say that they may well be looking into it and they will make a response when they have all the facts. Just imagine what would happen if they rush out a statement and that is also wrong.

[Pmorgancym]

4 minutes ago, HExpressD said:

Well, I think therein is a decent indication of the 'issue'. If there is a stick to beat Hornby up with Sam never fails to turn up with a log (as well as ludicrous hyperbole). Considering he hasn't mentioned it again perhaps it is not as big of an issue as some are making it out to be (and seemingly wanting it to be?)

What is lacking is any dialogue direct from Hornby.  Is it major problem?  We've seen large numbers of chips returned.  Is it an non issue that failure on DC are in the same ball park as failures on DCC?.  All we see is 2nd 3rd hand info from a member of the test team and reverse engineering of the website and instructions  the speculation and annoyance woukd stop with some direct clarification...

 

[Pmorgancym]

4 minutes ago, Porfuera said:

 

Others would say that they may well be looking into it and they will make a response when they have all the facts. Just imagine what would happen if they rush out a statement and that is also wrong.

Even '...we are investigating reports of potential issues...'  that's not hard

[Porfuera]

2 minutes ago, Pmorgancym said:

We've seen large numbers of chips returned.

 

Have we? I haven't. All I've seen is a lot of froth on here and a bit on social media.

 

Can you give me some numbers to support that statement?