Hornby 2023 - Bluetooth decoders and control system

[Ron Ron Ron]

2 hours ago, Legend said:

I think you’ll find that that the DC “Tri mode” ( for avoidance of doubt, whack the analogue controller up to max and use App to control blue tooth) will be quietly dropped . 

 

The DC mode is analogue operation.

Using an analogue (DC) controller up to full whack, was being touted (and overplayed in my estimation) as one method of powering the track under the BLE DCC mode.

 

 

2 hours ago, Legend said:

.......Might  investigate Blunami instead as I’d only want it for one or two locos . 

 

You might be out of luck there.

Blunami has exactly the same issues with trying to use an analogue (DC) controller to provide a power source for Bluetooth DCC operation.

There's a similar fuss occurring on some US forums, about unsuitable DC controllers causing problems with the Blunami decoders.

 

 

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[Pmorgancym]

17 minutes ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

 

Sorry, but I think you are 100% entirely wrong, although from the cack-handed launch videos and subsequent output, it's understandable that you may have misinterpreted the meaning of Tri-mode.

I will totally agree that the messaging from Hornby has at best, been wooly and often ambiguous.

However, there is no revisionism to the original offer.

 

1. Bluetooth operation (BLE) -  

i.e. DCC operation using the HM DCC app and Bluetooth communication with the decoders (rather than via the track).

Electrical power to enable the decoders to function and provide a motive source, via the track, using either a DCC or suitable DC supply.

There are criteria for using a DC power supply in this mode of operation.

Fixed voltage, smooth power supplies are preferable.

It is true that they've completely overplayed the use of suitable DC controllers as a power supply.

 

2. DCC operation (regular DCC) - 

Self explanatory.

 

3. Analogue (DC) operation -

Normal (variable voltage) DC operation, using a DC controller as with any other non-DCC loco, or enabled DCC fitted loco.

Hornby have made a mess of the marketing and messaging here, because from day one, their instruction manual advised against DC operation unless for "running in" purposes.

 

 

I will add, I am not defending Hornby in any way here.

In fact I dislike certain aspects of that company and do not hold their most prominent employee, in anywhere near the esteem that many seem to.

Most of their HM7000 videos have examples of muddled terminology, muddled explanations and in some cases, an apparent misunderstanding of their own product.

This was evidenced by certain individuals getting BLE (using a DC power source) mixed ups with analogue.

The wording on the packaging, its again muddled.

 

 

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But I will point to people who post here say that your interpiration ofDC operation is what was meant, who stated at the time on the Hornby forum that my interpretation is exactly what tri mode means.  So it seems to me that this 'running on DC' option has become a rear guard action to defend the tri mode marketting.  

[Pmorgancym]

10 minutes ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

 

The DC mode is analogue operation.

Using an analogue (DC) controller up to full whack, was being touted (and overplayed in my estimation) as one method of powering the track under the BLE DCC mode.

 

 

 

You might be out of luck there.

Blunami has exactly the same issues with trying to use an analogue (DC) controller to provide a power source for Bluetooth DCC operation.

There's a similar fuss occurring on some US forums, about unsuitable DC controllers causing problems with the Blunami decoders.

 

 

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Do Blunami and HM7000 share the same architecture, are they the same thing marketed by different companies, seems odd they're having similar issues...

[Grovenor]

8 minutes ago, Pmorgancym said:

Do Blunami and HM7000 share the same architecture, are they the same thing marketed by different companies, seems odd they're having similar issues...

They are the same architecture at a fundamental level although may well differ in detail. But these issues are basic to DCC and affect pretty much all decoders trying to run on DC to some extent. The so-called analogue mode has always been rather problematic and has been gradually downplayed since the early days when DC compatibility was important for marketing. But it is a known issue that any decoder manufacturer has to take into account. There is no excuse for providing a decoder with the feature and having it cause damage. The worst that should happen is that running on DC may be erratic.

[Pmorgancym]

6 minutes ago, Grovenor said:

They are the same architecture at a fundamental level although may well differ in detail. But these issues are basic to DCC and affect pretty much all decoders trying to run on DC to some extent. The so-called analogue mode has always been rather problematic and has been gradually downplayed since the early days when DC compatibility was important for marketing. But it is a known issue that any decoder manufacturer has to take into account. There is no excuse for providing a decoder with the feature and having it cause damage. The worst that should happen is that running on DC may be erratic.

This is slightly different from running on DC this is running on DCC but using DC purely as the source of power for the chip.  The actualy control signals are sent via bluetooth/other means.  I changing direction or power on the DC controller is not how the loco is controlled.

[Ron Ron Ron]

47 minutes ago, Pmorgancym said:

This is slightly different from running on DC this is running on DCC but using DC purely as the source of power for the chip.  The actualy control signals are sent via bluetooth/other means.  I changing direction or power on the DC controller is not how the loco is controlled.

 

(my bold)

 

It seems you have misunderstood entirely and are muddling up the different modes.

It's likely the terminology is the confusing bit?

 

Running on DC is just that.

Analogue DC control, using the control knob on your DC controller, to vary the voltage going to the track.

 

What you are describing is BLE (Bluetooth operation) DCC, with the DC controller being used as a fixed voltage power source, rather than a more reliable, regulated, fixed voltage power supply.

This is the same mode as using a DCC power source for the BLE mode of operation.

 

 

 

 

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[Pmorgancym]

23 minutes ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

 

(my bold)

 

It seems you have misunderstood entirely and are muddling up the different modes.

It's likely the terminology is the confusing bit?

 

Running on DC is just that.

Analogue DC control, using the control knob on your DC controller, to vary the voltage going to the track.

 

What you are describing is BLE (Bluetooth operation) DCC, with the DC controller being used as a fixed voltage power source, rather than a more reliable, regulated, fixed voltage power supply.

This is the same mode as using a DCC power source for the BLE mode of operation.

 

 

 

 

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No I ment the same thing

 

Running on dc is a loco with a chip attempting to run on dc like a  standard dc loco.

The hm7000s use DC as a power source and the loco is controlled by a seperate signal Bluetooth etc. 

[JSpencer]

10 hours ago, Pmorgancym said:

Could it have been faulty out of the box?  Sounds like it never worked from the start 

 

Probably! It did not like my 1st Gen Dapol 73!   I brought another pair of TXS chips after. One for a 2nd Gen Dapol 73 and another for a T9. They are fine, but I only ever used the eLink for power.

[spamcan61]

11 hours ago, RedgateModels said:

I’ve always understood this to be the original meaning of tri-mode in the same way that traditional DCC decoders are dual mode unless dc running is disabled.

 

the topic under discussion, that I think was mentioned as an afterthought by Hornby marketing folks that got jumped on by people with traditional DC systems but wanted to dabble with DCC sound.

 

 

That's not what the Hornby's publicity material, as contained in the first message of this thread, shows though: one of the diagrams clearly illustrates what I've called scenario 2. Indeed it illustrates the two types of Hornby controller I've measured in this thread, neither of which look particularly suitable for use as a DC power source.

Edited April 22, 2023 by spamcan61

[Legend]

12 hours ago, RedgateModels said:

that’s your spin. I appreciate that you are disappointed that your flavour of modelling is not necessarily catered for by the stance that is now being taken by Hornby, but it does not change MY opinion of what the product was originally designed for. Shout as loud as you like from the rooftops it won’t change things.

Its not just Pmorgancyms spin

 

When it says Tri-mode DC Control  I think it’s fair to conclude it means operating from an existing DC system , not that you have to buy a PSU to run it on DC , meaning you can’t control other non chipped locos . 
 

I hope your review for BRM will specifically point out this is not the case . 
 

Anyway ,moving on , this system is no use to existing DC users . It’s a disappointment in that respect and doesn’t do what many would imply from the box . I’ll bet they are already changing the artwork for the next batch 

Edited April 22, 2023 by Legend

[Pmorgancym]

9 hours ago, Legend said:

Its not just Pmorgancyms spin

 

When it says Tri-mode DC Control  I think it’s fair to conclude it means operating from an existing DC system , not that you have to buy a PSU to run it on DC , meaning you can’t control other non chipped locos . 
 

I hope your review for BRM will specifically point out this is not the case . 
 

Anyway ,moving on , this system is no use to existing DC users . It’s a disappointment in that respect and doesn’t do what many would imply from the box . I’ll bet they are already changing the artwork for the next 

I suspect the review will follow the poster's existing line.

Hornby have remained offically silent, whilst using sympathic social.media actors to insist thay consumers were stupid to believe the marketting, and spread this spin that 'functions on DC'/tri mode refers to a function that is so ill advised that 'most dcc manufacturers turn it of' but is still some how displayed on the box as a purchasing feature!   While they attempt to purge all mention of the feature from the website.

They just.ignore that fact that all they have to do is say 'sorry the.produxt is flawed it doesn't work.how we intended it too'

 

 

 

[Pteremy]

In my experience when something seems to be 'too good to be true' it usually is. But I am sure that Hornby can pivot to a more positive position. Indeed, I think that they need to. Having woken the market up to the benefits of control through Bluetooth if they don't work this through now, with the benefit of their head start, I am sure there are others who could step in with similar products.

[Ron Ron Ron]

37 minutes ago, Pteremy said:

……….if they don't work this through now, with the benefit of their head start, I am sure there are others who could step in with similar products.

Just to repeat.

Hornby are not the first to introduce this technology.

BlueRail Trains in the USA introduced an earlier version, some 7 years ago, with Bachmann Trains adopting their decoders and releasing a small range of Bluetooth fitted locos and train sets (E-Z App).

BlueRail Train’s second generation decoders are now made by SoundTraxx, a leading US decoder manufacturer and sold as the Blunami range.

Dead Rail, battery powered trains can be fitted with “BlueRailDCC by Tam Valley” decoder boards.

 

Although not the first, Hornby have move the game on by releasing 7 HM7000 decoders, in the first iteration of this range (3 sound and 4 non-sound) and making the downloading of sound and loco profiles, much easier….and repeatable.

No consisting at launch is a significant failing though and not being talked about much on here.

 

It remains to be seen if competitors step into this space.

The established DCC manufacturers might not be so keen, as it puts their business of selling hardware products into jeopardy.

 

 

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Edited April 23, 2023 by Ron Ron Ron

[Pteremy]

Just now, Ron Ron Ron said:

Just to repeat.

Hornby are not the first to introduce this technology.

 

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Yes I know - but it is Hornby who have now generated a strong interest in the technology in the UK market. That is an opportunity for someone to exploit. Should be Hornby - but could be someone else.

[WIMorrison]

Quote

...now generated a strong interest in the technology ...

 

Really? The only place it seems to be getting debated is by a few people here, not even mentioned in the circles I move in.

[PeterStiles]

41 minutes ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

No consisting at launch is a significant failing

Although not normally an issue if your layout is a GWT BLT.

[RedgateModels]

2 hours ago, Pmorgancym said:

I suspect the review will follow the poster's existing line.

my review will follow the brief given to me by the Brand Content Manager firstly.

 

within that scope, when I get it, I will attempt to outline all aspects of the system using all information to hand at the time of writing. I will certainly not pull any punches within the framework I am given.

[RAF96]

Looking at other social media posts about running decoder equipped locos on a DC controlled track I note that it has always been held since time immemorial that some controllers are fine to use and others are certain death to decoders. It would seem the current drum bangers have forgotten that.

[RAF96]

13 hours ago, spamcan61 said:

That's not what the Hornby's publicity material, as contained in the first message of this thread, shows though: one of the diagrams clearly illustrates what I've called scenario 2. Indeed it illustrates the two types of Hornby controller I've measured in this thread, neither of which look particularly suitable for use as a DC power source.

 

That original publicity page only shows two Hornby controllers and has long since been withdrawn. No mention of using alien DC controllers.

[Legend]

1 hour ago, RAF96 said:

Looking at other social media posts about running decoder equipped locos on a DC controlled track I note that it has always been held since time immemorial that some controllers are fine to use and others are certain death to decoders. It would seem the current drum bangers have forgotten that.

Well come off the fence and list them .  That would be useful information 

[spamcan61]

1 hour ago, RAF96 said:

 

That original publicity page only shows two Hornby controllers and has long since been withdrawn. No mention of using alien DC controllers.

Personally I've always regarded 'alien' controllers as a bridge too far anyway, but anyone seeing that image, as many did, would surely assume that those two types of Hornby controller, at least, would be OK, but I've not seen Hornby even commit to that. 

[spamcan61]

1 hour ago, RAF96 said:

Looking at other social media posts about running decoder equipped locos on a DC controlled track I note that it has always been held since time immemorial that some controllers are fine to use and others are certain death to decoders. It would seem the current drum bangers have forgotten that.

Not forgotten at all, my 'scenario 1' as I mentioned a page or two back. The issue that's been under discussion is my 'scenario 2' which Hornby pitched as a benefit of HM7000, and is printed on the packaging, but still no firm statement of what Hornby controllers it actually applies to.

Edited April 23, 2023 by spamcan61

[Kris]

The second decoder that I have seems to have a problem. The sound works with normal DCC but not via bluetooth. I can still talk to the chip via bluetooth and read all the settings. I have reinstalled all the sounds and settings repeatedly but no change. Time to contact the support teams at Hornby tomorrow to see what they say.

[Porfuera]

On 21/04/2023 at 19:36, spamcan61 said:

I'm losing track,which of the following scenarios  is the subject under discussion now please?

 

1) Controlling HM7000 chips via DC control i.e. turn the knob and the loco goes faster? In other words a DCC feature that's been available for years but has always been a bit of a crapshoot, hence is often disabled by OEMs by default 

 

2) Hornby's specific HM7000 control method where the dc controller is permanently set to full throttle and the loco is controlled via BLE + iPad or whatever?

 

On 22/04/2023 at 08:44, Pmorgancym said:

The 2nd, but there's been some sort of smoke and mirrors going on claiming that 'tri mode' on the box refers to the first.

 

Sorry I'm still confused and I don't understand your answer to @spamcan61's question. To me tri-mode included both of those things from the start (I'm sure others have listed these before so apologies for this):

 

1) BLE control using either a DCC supply or a DC supply turned up to maximum (which is (2) above).

2) 'Normal' DCC control

3) Analogue DC control (as in "turn the knob and the loco goes faster" which is (1) above).

 

If tri-mode included both of these things from the start then I don't understand your "smoke and mirrors" reference and what you mean when you say that they are now claiming that tri-mode only referred to analogue DC control (which in itself is generally not considered to be a good thing and is something that Hornby actually advise against using).

 

Hornby clearly said from the start that you could use BLE control with a DC supply turned up to max (although there were caveats to that as in it wouldn't necessarily work very well or at all or there would be no sound) and it is unfortunate that this has turned out to have been a Very Bad Idea, but there is not much that can be done about that now and accusing them of "smoke and mirrors" isn't going to help, no matter how frustrated you feel because it now won't work in your particular situation.

Edited April 23, 2023 by Porfuera

[WIMorrison]

Quote

 

1) BLE control using either a DCC supply or a DC supply turned up to maximum (which is (2) above).

2) 'Normal' DCC control

3) Analogue DC control (as in "turn the knob and the loco goes faster" which is (1) above).

 

 

That would be quad-mode not tri-mode ;)

 

1) BLE control using a DCC supply & app

2) BLE control using a DC supply & app

3) Normal DCC control without app

4) Analogue DC control

 

😄

 

 

Edited April 23, 2023 by WIMorrison