Hornby 2023 - Bluetooth decoders and control system

[melmerby]

3 hours ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

Could we please take the battery power discussion elsewhere.  

 

Unfortunately it keeps popping up as a 'possible' way to use Hornby's Blue Tooth system with battery power.☹️

I personally don't see how it can with present technology.

 

[melmerby]

2 hours ago, NIK said:

Could be they are deriving an interrupt or similar from a circuit locked to the period of the DCC transitions in order to simplify the sound generation.

TBH I can't see why that would be necessary as I would assume the BT DCC is working in a similar way to normal DCC and has it's own inbuilt timing signal.

If not IMHO it's doomed to failure.

 

The problem is that Hornby, as usual, are being recalcitrant with proper technical aspects of their products.

All this should have been sorted before the product launch but we have half specs and confusing statements.

 

[NIK]

1 hour ago, melmerby said:

TBH I can't see why that would be necessary as I would assume the BT DCC is working in a similar way to normal DCC and has it's own inbuilt timing signal.

If not IMHO it's doomed to failure.

 

The problem is that Hornby, as usual, are being recalcitrant with proper technical aspects of their products.

All this should have been sorted before the product launch but we have half specs and confusing statements.

 

Hi,

 

Now that Simon Kohler has said the sound HM7000 decoders will work on 15V DC providing the power supply has enough current capacity to power the loco with sound on then my speculation on why the sound might not work on a DC supply is no longer needed.

 

I agree this sort of thing should have been sorted before the launch. On that point the HM188 video said the Bluetooth range was 12 to 15 metres with locos with diecast bodies. But I believe all the locos with diecast bodies made recently have plastic tenders where a decoder might be fitted. So will the Deltic DP1 have the same range?.

 

Regards

 

Nik

[frobisher]

5 minutes ago, NIK said:

So will the Deltic DP1 have the same range?

 

It'll depend where the decoder is and what's around it.  All big unknowns for now.  I'd hope that the underframe detail was mostly moulded plastic, and the decoder lives in one of the fuel/boiler tanks there.  But the big chunk of metal sitting above it isn't going to be terribly helpful.  But as was also said, the more BT decoder fitted locos you have, the better the local mesh and coverage is.

 

But certain scenery construction practices might impact reception (use of chicken wire and tinfoil for instance).

[Nile]

17 minutes ago, NIK said:

So will the Deltic DP1 have the same range?.

 

I doubt it matters, how many of those will ever run on a layout?

There are plenty of Bachmann ones around if it is a problem.

[RAF96]

The reason using a cheap train-set controller at max chat is not recommended is because the PWM output from the DC controller can affect the decoder sound quality, hence either use a direct PSU to track supply or use the app in conjunction with your DCC controller. The anomaly was first noticed in the HM6K app which allows adjustment of PWM frequency and it was noted decoder fitted locos could run badly at some frequency settings.

The HM7K app sends commands over the air (OTA) to the decoders, so all that techno waffle about Railcom interrupts and other stuff can be ignored. The decoders do not support Railcom anyhow as they read and write CVs in quick time OTA.

[Pmorgancym]

4 hours ago, melmerby said:

Unfortunately it keeps popping up as a 'possible' way to use Hornby's Blue Tooth system with battery power.☹️

I personally don't see how it can with present technology.

 

Have you seen how much room there is in a railroad diesel loco, unlike a modern loco they're 80% fresh air.

[Pmorgancym]

25 minutes ago, RAF96 said:

The reason using a cheap train-set controller at max chat is not recommended is because the PWM output from the DC controller can affect the decoder sound quality, hence either use a direct PSU to track supply or use the app in conjunction with your DCC controller. The anomaly was first noticed in the HM6K app which allows adjustment of PWM frequency and it was noted decoder fitted locos could run badly at some frequency settings.

The HM7K app sends commands over the air (OTA) to the decoders, so all that techno waffle about Railcom interrupts and other stuff can be ignored. The decoders do not support Railcom anyhow as they read and write CVs in quick time OTA.

Is a actual an admission that the basic Hornby trainset controller is a god awful piece of kak

[NIK]

29 minutes ago, RAF96 said:

The reason using a cheap train-set controller at max chat is not recommended is because the PWM output from the DC controller can affect the decoder sound quality, hence either use a direct PSU to track supply or use the app in conjunction with your DCC controller. The anomaly was first noticed in the HM6K app which allows adjustment of PWM frequency and it was noted decoder fitted locos could run badly at some frequency settings.

The HM7K app sends commands over the air (OTA) to the decoders, so all that techno waffle about Railcom interrupts and other stuff can be ignored. The decoders do not support Railcom anyhow as they read and write CVs in quick time OTA.

Hi,

 

Interesting info about DC PWM controllers interacting with DCC decoder sound quality and running qualities.

 

Railcom also allows the detection of whether a particular loco is in a particular local detection section. Does the HM7000 offer this feature?.

 

My question about Railcom cutouts was related to running on a DCC supply (loco either DCC controlled or Bluetooth controlled). Is the Railcom cutout too short to affect the decoders?.

 

Regards

 

Nick

Edited January 11, 2023 by NIK

[Coryton]

4 minutes ago, Pmorgancym said:

Is a actual an admission that the basic Hornby trainset controller is a god awful piece of kak

 

I had a play with one a few years ago and I wasn't impressed. I believe that the pre-China train set controllers were actually pretty good, but these, and the previous generation, don't seem that great.

 

But it's a good point that controllers rarely put out a pure DC signal (and for good reasons).

 

Presumably though putting a pure(ish) 12 V DC (pr perhaps a little more) on some sections on a DC railway while controlling other ones is less likely to cause trouble than attempts to mix DCC and DC on different sections.

[melmerby]

36 minutes ago, Pmorgancym said:

Have you seen how much room there is in a railroad diesel loco, unlike a modern loco they're 80% fresh air.

At no time have I mentioned a modern image vehicle, try and fit it in a Peckett, pug, or any small loco.

Any system needs to be suitable for all the range

[Ron Ron Ron]

8 hours ago, Coryton said:

 

........(Also I don't understand the comment above about amplifying a digital signal to increase voltage and power - doesn't a DCC chip just take the "AC" DCC track voltage and use pulse width modulation to control motor speed?)

 

 

Sorry for the late reply.

Poor wording on my part, in my haste to post before dashing off out.

I've now edited the post to clarify.

The amplification of the digital signal takes place in the DCC system's booster (or boosters, where additional ones are employed), before output to the track.

This means that the track output is much higher than would be necessary just to transmit control signals alone.

The increased track output power, allows the DCC signal to also be used to power receiving devices (i.e. the decoders) and to provide them with the necessary Oomph to to be able to power and control their outputs (motor control, accessory outputs, sound, etc).

 

Note also there is no "AC" DCC track voltage" involved, even though the current switches polarity ± at a rapid rate.

The chip does indeed rectify the electrical signal and use PWM to regulate motor speed.

 

 

.

[NIK]

Hi,

 

Just looked at a video that included demonstrating the CV download from a HM7000 decoder via Bluetooth and there appeared to be about 260 CVs. I'm guessing that was from a sound decoder.

 

Regards

 

Nik

[Pmorgancym]

7 hours ago, melmerby said:

At no time have I mentioned a modern image vehicle, try and fit it in a Peckett, pug, or any small loco.

Any system needs to be suitable for all the range

Not that long ago you wouldn't have expected to get DCC in a loco that size let alone stay alive and sound

[Vecchio]

Quite a lot of guesswork in this thread. I suppose we have to wait until the system is available to make proper comments or even decisions. What I hope for is that Hornby's initiative will bring market prices down... 

 

Happy modelling!

[JSpencer]

My fleet is split between DCC fitted and conventional DC.

 

DCC fitted use a PC controlled system and this along with the small DCC layout (plank) is what I take most to exhibitions. Everything on it (points, lighting, power, signals etc ) is controlled by DCC. I can leave the PC to run the show at certain periods and go off and visit parts of the show. The plank has switches to the side to allow me to fire point motors, insulate sections etc just in case I need to do DC, but it is hardly a centralized cab control.

 

The big layout in the basement is much older, uses classical wiring, cab like control. Hundreds of solder joints, hundreds of meters of cabling. All motors are fired from the central switch board. That switch board can allocate any one of up to six (I normally use just 4) controllers to any section of track. I can allocate a section of track to DCC if I wish to run a DCC loco but automation is not possible.

 

What - I think - this allows me to do is fit and run a loco from a blue tooth controlled loco. I can run it straight under the DC layout without having to plug in the DCC controller along with the PC.

Then by flicking over CV12, I *believe* I can run it like a classic DCC loco via the PC on a DCC layout taking commands from DCC signals on the track.

What it cannot do is replace my classic DCC controller as it has no links to any of the DCC controlled items  such as points, lighting etc, nor can it run the layout in an automated way.

But equally Hornby *might have* further developments in the pipe to eventually allow that. (equally a 6 pin DCC sound chip must surely be in the pipe?). Or someone else might....

So worth a try in my case.

Edited January 12, 2023 by JSpencer

[NIK]

Hi JSpenser,

 

As someone has pointed out this Hornby announcement is for phase 1.

Edited January 12, 2023 by NIK

[jonnyuk]

for those of us dipping into TT:120 this is perfect, DCC control with sound via an app without having to spend more money on a full DCC system, when in reality i bet most of us already have one

[JSpencer]

2 hours ago, NIK said:

Hi JSpenser,

 

As someone has pointed out this Hornby announcement is for phase 1.

 

Excellent - as you can imagine, I did not fancy getting everyone's hopes up on what's next. But the potential is huge.

I mean:

Accessory controllers for point motors, signals etc 

A blue tooth box that plugs in between PC/tablet/phone and layout to run both Hornby   HM7000 and classic DCC items with PC app.

etc...

 

Their Railmaster software had the possibility of a phone app, but it needed to use an internet link back to the PC in order to send signals to the loco. This hardly worked probably as it was dreadfully slow.

Edited January 12, 2023 by JSpencer

[newbryford]

7 minutes ago, JSpencer said:

 

Excellent - as you can imagine, I did not fancy getting everyone's hopes up on what's next. But the potential is huge.

I mean:

Accessory controllers for point motors, signals etc 

 

 

Isn't that what HM6000 already is capable of?

The Hornby release video showing the HM7000 has an image of a HM6000 accessory control screen to control points.

 

[NIK]

Hi Newbryford,

 

Well spotted. Although in the first video I think in this topic the Hornby man says the HM7000 supersedes the HM6000.

Hopefully the HM6000 range will continue.

Regards

 

Nik

[RedgateModels]

Think it would be a mistake to drop the HM6000 as it caters for the set market etc and folks who insist on pure DC. They might get rid of it, but then all starter sets would need to come with HM7000 equipped locos. Costs would be about the same for a single loco setup, but double for a two track oval

[E100]

13 minutes ago, RedgateModels said:

Think it would be a mistake to drop the HM6000 as it caters for the set market etc and folks who insist on pure DC. They might get rid of it, but then all starter sets would need to come with HM7000 equipped locos. Costs would be about the same for a single loco setup, but double for a two track oval

 

That's an interesting point. I don't see the HM6000 going anywhere but for the price of it vs a decoder / sound decoder it'll probably appear in more premium sets I reckon.

[JSpencer]

52 minutes ago, newbryford said:

 

Isn't that what HM6000 already is capable of?

The Hornby release video showing the HM7000 has an image of a HM6000 accessory control screen to control points.

 

 

HM6000 is a classic DC set up run by a smartphone with blue tooth. Each power box is limited to 4 (or maybe 8) accessories and in turn these boxes are limited to a max of 4 (so 16 or 32 accessories). Not enough to cover my layout. You still need separate wires for each accessory running between the box and the accessory (motor, signals, whatever). (Granted you could place each box on different corners of the layout).

It is good HM6000 etc can be read by HM7000 but they are not true DCC accessory items. 

 

I can use as many "DCC systems" accessory decoders (such as point motor switches) as I like, powered by a single pair of wires going the entire layout with the possibility of adding a local switch to trigger the point manually if desired. 

So the development here is clearly an accessory that uses either a DC or DCC power source and can be triggered by either the HM7000 app via blue tooth or DCC control via wires (without needing to switch CV configuration back and forth between the two).

Then a PC app containing the layout etc.... Again all this is for later and should be easy for Hornby to grow in to. 

[Ron Ron Ron]

2 minutes ago, JSpencer said:

 

.....It is good HM6000 etc can be read by HM7000 but they are not true DCC accessory items. ....

 

Can it?

Simon K describes having to switch between 2 different apps, when converting a layout from HM6000 DC to HM DCC.

 

 

.