Formula 1 2023

[Obi-Jiff Kenobi]

1 hour ago, woodenhead said:

I think someone enjoyed themselves today, not sure how the other two feel:

1. Yea ha

2. How did I not win?

3. Have I got a job in a couple of races?

Or, Max has let rip, Charles isn’t impressed, and Checo just realised he’s sitting downwind. 🤢

[woodenhead]

22 minutes ago, Obi-Jiff Kenobi said:

Or, Max has let rip, Charles isn’t impressed, and Checo just realised he’s sitting downwind. 🤢

I knew I’d seen that gleeful facial expression before, it’s the one anyone in the Woodenhead household bears having released a beast.  😂🤣

[Hroth]

I didn't realise that the YabbaDabbaDo GP was today!

 

 

[Gareth Collier]

And arguably the dullest ever season draws to a close. Fingers crossed next season will be better and the rest of the field or at least one or two offer a challenge to Max.

As for today's race that's 9 years on the trot the pole sitter has won....

[Steadfast]

As he retained the lead after Leclerc's challenge in the first corner or two, I thought to myself game over. Wasn't long until I fell asleep in front of the telly...

 

Jo

[Oldddudders]

Ominous.

 

https://www.pitpass.com/76819/Hamilton-fears-Red-Bull-dominance-will-continue

 

 

[Hroth]

42 minutes ago, Oldddudders said:

Ominous.

 

https://www.pitpass.com/76819/Hamilton-fears-Red-Bull-dominance-will-continue

 

 

 

Red Bull "dominance" would be more acceptable without the personalities and attitude of Horner and Mr Bean.

 

[Oldddudders]

The years of Merc dominance must have been nearly as tedious, but I found the individuals much more likeable. Not quite so sure about the Schumacher era at Ferrari, though. 

[SteveM666]

Where Ferrari (Schmacher) and Red Bull (Vettel and Verstappen) got it wrong was the stifling of any internal challenge from team mates of their ‘chosen one’.

Think back to periods of domination by other teams - McLaren, Prost/Lauda, Prost/Senna - Williams, Mansell/Piquet, Mansell/Patrese - Mercedes, Hamilton/Rosberg, Hamilton/Bottas - you were never entirely sure who would come out on top of each pairing at any given race. And that kept the interest going.

That cannot be said about any of the Schumacher, Vettel, Verstappen pairings - and that is what has killed the sport for many fans - the numbing predictability.

[30368]

32 minutes ago, Oldddudders said:

The years of Merc dominance must have been nearly as tedious, but I found the individuals much more likeable. Not quite so sure about the Schumacher era at Ferrari, though. 

 

Ian,

I am surprised by your comments. I agree that all periods of long term domination in F1 tend towards boredom except, naturally, when Ferrari and MS dominated at the end of the 1990's and early years of this century. It was just perfect with our annual trips to the French or Italian Grand Prixs usually rewarded with a further Ferrari victory.

 

KInd regards,

 

The totally unbiased Ferrari fan sometimes known as 30368

[Oldddudders]

14 minutes ago, 30368 said:

Ian,

 

I am surprised by your comments.

Oh no you're not!

[30368]

3 minutes ago, SteveM666 said:

Where Ferrari (Schmacher) and Red Bull (Vettel and Verstappen) got it wrong was the stifling of any internal challenge from team mates of their ‘chosen one’.

Think back to periods of domination by other teams - McLaren, Prost/Lauda, Prost/Senna - Williams, Mansell/Piquet, Mansell/Patrese - Mercedes, Hamilton/Rosberg, Hamilton/Bottas - you were never entirely sure who would come out on top of each pairing at any given race. And that kept the interest going.

That cannot be said about any of the Schumacher, Vettel, Verstappen pairings - and that is what has killed the sport for many fans - the numbing predictability.

 

You have a point Steve, an interesting thought.

Perhaps we should consider also the quality of team mates too? The Prost/Lauda/Senna and Mansell/Piquet era was, I agree, as you describe (and I would add other periods, perhaps Hill/Clark?) however it was also a time of some cynicism with such huge ego's battling it out - Senna, who many rate very highly, took out Prost at the first corner of the Japanese GP to secure a further championship. I found that a bit of a turn off.

I suspect, team managers learnt from the errors of the super teamates and the downside of too many egos in one basket and moved to the star + upcoming star/good second string driver approach. I can't really think of any driver that teamed Schumacher, Hamilton, Vettel or Verstappen that have come close to being a real prospect of beating the team leader. I can see that Rosberg perhaps disrupts this narrative but I would suggest that Mercedes were fairly desperate for a German World Champion and acted accordingly...

 

Kind regards,

 

ditto as above.

 

 

 

[Steadfast]

During previous domination eras, even though come season end it was yet another championship for team X,Y or Z, the season to get there usually had a few different winners, unlike this year where Red Bull came oh so close to a clean sweep.

It'll be interesting to see if they evolve to retain the dominance next year on two fronts, firstly the after effects of the penalty for breaching last years cost cap (I think we can all guess how much effect it had...) and secondly to if the other teams can catch them up.

 

Jo

[SteveM666]

24 minutes ago, 30368 said:

 

You have a point Steve, an interesting thought.

Perhaps we should consider also the quality of team mates too? The Prost/Lauda/Senna and Mansell/Piquet era was, I agree, as you describe (and I would add other periods, perhaps Hill/Clark?) however it was also a time of some cynicism with such huge ego's battling it out - Senna, who many rate very highly, took out Prost at the first corner of the Japanese GP to secure a further championship. I found that a bit of a turn off.

I suspect, team managers learnt from the errors of the super teamates and the downside of too many egos in one basket and moved to the star + upcoming star/good second string driver approach. I can't really think of any driver that teamed Schumacher, Hamilton, Vettel or Verstappen that have come close to being a real prospect of beating the team leader. I can see that Rosberg perhaps disrupts this narrative but I would suggest that Mercedes were fairly desperate for a German World Champion and acted accordingly...

 

Kind regards,

 

ditto as above.

 

 

 

I agree that Senna was an extremely cynical and calculating driver - one of the reasons why I could never warm to him. Wasn’t the collision at the start of that Japanese GP a calculated response to the FIA refusing to move the position of the pole starter to the clean side of the grid? IMHO they were right not to budge and Senna was wrong to make no attempt to make the turn.

Strength of team mates - interesting. Patrese clearly struggled with confidence in the FW14B but he consistently finished in P2 and was always there to pick up the pieces when Mansell fell short. I think that’s called keeping the other driver honest.

Hamilton/Bottas - I always felt that Mercedes gave all its drivers equal treatment and Bottas was generally level pegging in the early part of each season, however Hamilton was noted for getting a second wind and powering away in the second part of the season. I believe that destroyed  Valteri’s confidence but on his day, and definitely in qualifying, he was a match for Hamilton.

[Gareth Collier]

Although there was a period of Mercedes dominance as far as championships go they didn't win every race, there was often a good 5-6 different race winners and never dominated to the extent Max had. There was often serious competition but they usually ended up shooting themselves in the foot at some point.

[Steadfast]

8 minutes ago, Gareth Collier said:

Although there was a period of Mercedes dominance as far as championships go they didn't win every race, there was often a good 5-6 different race winners and never dominated to the extent Max had. There was often serious competition but they usually ended up shooting themselves in the foot at some point.

Much more nicely put than my earlier drivel! Exactly the point, there were some very strong Ferrari years in the Merc era, but ultimately falling short.

 

Jo

[Reorte]

Back when I was just starting to get interested in F1 (and might well have put me off for good) was probably the most one-sided season ever from a constructor's point of view, 1988, when McLaren won all but one race. Although even then there was at least a good deal of competition between the two team members.

[LNERandBR]

I think you just have to look at some of the records that Verstappen had taken to see how dominant Red Bull is. 

 

Those who point to the Mercedes dominant period and saying it was also boring need to realise that there were still competition between the teammates. 

Yes, Bottas wasn't as bigger threat to Lewis that Rosberg was and was soon getting the calls to move over. However that peoved that the team performances were converging at that point.

 

I really think the only thing to slow Red Bull down and not the others would be to impose success ballast on just them. However, that would have people up in arms. 

 

For all their 'our drivers are equal' chat it is clear as day there is a single no1 driver at Red Bull.

[Hroth]

33 minutes ago, LNERandBR said:

I really think the only thing to slow Red Bull down and not the others would be to impose success ballast on just them. However, that would have people up in arms. 

 

In some ways, horse racing seems to get away with handicapping, though I've no idea how handicapping works there...  🤪

 

[OnTheBranchline]

8 hours ago, SteveM666 said:

I agree that Senna was an extremely cynical and calculating driver - one of the reasons why I could never warm to him. Wasn’t the collision at the start of that Japanese GP a calculated response to the FIA refusing to move the position of the pole starter to the clean side of the grid? IMHO they were right not to budge and Senna was wrong to make no attempt to make the turn.

Strength of team mates - interesting. Patrese clearly struggled with confidence in the FW14B but he consistently finished in P2 and was always there to pick up the pieces when Mansell fell short. I think that’s called keeping the other driver honest.

Hamilton/Bottas - I always felt that Mercedes gave all its drivers equal treatment and Bottas was generally level pegging in the early part of each season, however Hamilton was noted for getting a second wind and powering away in the second part of the season. I believe that destroyed  Valteri’s confidence but on his day, and definitely in qualifying, he was a match for Hamilton.

 

People do not understand how potentially dangerous a move that was for Senna to take out Prost like that - anything could have gone wrong considering the level of safety wasn't what it was today.

[OnTheBranchline]

6 hours ago, LNERandBR said:

I think you just have to look at some of the records that Verstappen had taken to see how dominant Red Bull is. 

 

Those who point to the Mercedes dominant period and saying it was also boring need to realise that there were still competition between the teammates. 

Yes, Bottas wasn't as bigger threat to Lewis that Rosberg was and was soon getting the calls to move over. However that peoved that the team performances were converging at that point.

 

I really think the only thing to slow Red Bull down and not the others would be to impose success ballast on just them. However, that would have people up in arms. 

 

For all their 'our drivers are equal' chat it is clear as day there is a single no1 driver at Red Bull.

 

Bottas could provided a challenge in qualifying, his race pace was usually way worse.

 

If ballast is the only way to slow down cars, then it's not F1. It's sport cars...

Edited November 27, 2023 by OnTheBranchline

[Pete the Elaner]

21 hours ago, LNERandBR said:

 

Yes, Bottas wasn't as bigger threat to Lewis that Rosberg was and was soon getting the calls to move over.

 

That was not as often as it has been repeated. I read somewhere that it was only 5 times, but has been exaggerated over the years.

4 of those were in the second half of the season, when Vettel was challenging Hamilton for 1st. Vettel was way ahead at the summer break one year (2017?) so any team would favour their only driver left in contention for the title at this stage.

The only time when it happened early in the season was when they were on different strategies & Hamilton promised to return the favour. He did that 2 races later by moving aside to let Bottas take a place (I think it may have been for the win too).

Nobody wants to remember that part of it though.

[Oldddudders]

I think the ultimate indictment of Bottas's race pace was when Lewis was off sick and Russell substituted, lapping Bottas before Merc pee'd in the soup for him and lost him a certain win. If a stranger could leap in the car and virtually make it talk, as Russell did, there was a stark lesson for Bottas. 

[Pete the Elaner]

On 27/11/2023 at 10:35, 30368 said:

I can't really think of any driver that teamed Schumacher, Hamilton, Vettel or Verstappen that have come close to being a real prospect of beating the team leader. I can see that Rosberg perhaps disrupts this narrative but I would suggest that Mercedes were fairly desperate for a German World Champion and acted accordingly...

 

 

How can you include Hamilton in there?

He drove alongside Alonso, Button or Rosberg in 7 of his first 9 seasons. Alonso & Button were both the reigning WCs at the time. Alonso fully expected to dominate Hamilton. Rosberg had ambitions of winning against Hamilton & achieved it.

[Pete the Elaner]

11 minutes ago, Oldddudders said:

I think the ultimate indictment of Bottas's race pace was when Lewis was off sick and Russell substituted, lapping Bottas before Merc pee'd in the soup for him and lost him a certain win. If a stranger could leap in the car and virtually make it talk, as Russell did, there was a stark lesson for Bottas. 

 

Bottas was good on his day but lacked consistency.