Formula 1 2023

[Pete the Elaner]

4 hours ago, OnTheBranchline said:

Perez on his mental struggles lately.

 

After reading this, I think he should just retire and end his career driving the most competitive car he will ever drive in his career.

 

That was an interesting read. I don't think he is being managed too well. Good management would take the pressure off him. Marko has occasionally been quoted as criticising him. While I do not believe what he said has been reported very accurately, he should not have said anything even slightly quotable. Bottas never seemed to suffer like that at Mercedes & was often able to push & compete with Hamilton.

 

A better example is Ferrari though: The Italian media are very demanding & the drivers often seem to feel this pressure. That was particularly noticeable with Vettel & last season with Leclerc. When Todt was there, he protected the drivers from this & it allowed them to perform better.

[OnTheBranchline]

24 minutes ago, Pete the Elaner said:

 

That was an interesting read. I don't think he is being managed too well. Good management would take the pressure off him. Marko has occasionally been quoted as criticising him. While I do not believe what he said has been reported very accurately, he should not have said anything even slightly quotable. Bottas never seemed to suffer like that at Mercedes & was often able to push & compete with Hamilton.

 

A better example is Ferrari though: The Italian media are very demanding & the drivers often seem to feel this pressure. That was particularly noticeable with Vettel & last season with Leclerc. When Todt was there, he protected the drivers from this & it allowed them to perform better.

 

The only place that Bottas was truly able to compete with Hamilton was in qualifying - Bottas's qualifying was always better than his actual racecraft. 

 

The thing about Perez is he truly thinks he has a chance at getting a title and this is crushing to know that you're great at your job and training to be the top dog but there's someone else who's better than you, and you can't do anything about it. 

 

Part of it is also expectations on Perez's part - he thinks he was hired to drive for the title but deep down Red Bull knows he was hired for 2nd place.

 

Would be interesting to see how Perez would perform without Max (like a 1999 British Grand Prix accident) and how the championship would go.

Edited September 26, 2023 by OnTheBranchline

[PaulRhB]

1 hour ago, OnTheBranchline said:

Would be interesting to see how Perez would perform without Max

Well you just look at his position in the championship, without Max he’d be leading although not by much. If you give a good driver the best car they will win races, we’ve seen many good drivers beat better drivers to championships over the years. If you put Hamilton, Leclerc, Alonso in it and see how he does too? A great driver can probably make up 5% of the difference in a car against a good driver but if the car better than that they just can’t go fast enough to catch up. 
 

 

Edited September 26, 2023 by PaulRhB

[Sidecar Racer]

 He said that after Miami it went downhill .

 

After the Miami race the points were  MV 113  SP 98 , Over the next two

races MV scored 51 against SP's 12 with a 0 in one race .

So now we have MV on 164 and SP on 110 .

 

 Wonder if RB  just made some ' poor setup ' steps for two races 

to let MV  get a good lead because SP was doing well because after that he had

some better races and scored some god points .

 

 Just sayin .   😎

 

 

[Pete the Elaner]

13 hours ago, Sidecar Racer said:

 He said that after Miami it went downhill .

 

After the Miami race the points were  MV 113  SP 98 , Over the next two

races MV scored 51 against SP's 12 with a 0 in one race .

So now we have MV on 164 and SP on 110 .

 

 Wonder if RB  just made some ' poor setup ' steps for two races 

to let MV  get a good lead because SP was doing well because after that he had

some better races and scored some god points .

 

 Just sayin .   😎

 

 

 

There are certain ways in which you just can't treat drivers completely equally.

Race strategy: If they are close together, you cannot usually allow them to both pit on the same lap because this would cause a delay for the second driver. Safety car periods are an obvious exception.

Car design is another. If the 2 drivers like very different setups, which would you prioritise? The driver you think will be faster or the slower one? Or would you design something they both hate & tell them to shut up & get on with it?

 

I don't have an issue with any of that, but I do have an issue with the media & deluded followers denying it, then criticising others for using similar tactics.

 

The next 2 GPS are Qatar & US. Unless there are any big surprises, Verstappen should have won the title by then. After the US is Mexico. If Red Bull have any sense, they would throw their support fully behind Perez. A win for him there would not only boost his chances of finishing in P2 but they would gain huge popularity within Mexico & it would not affect the team or Verstappen in any way.

I would publicly give Verstappen team orders to help Perez. Let's see what balls the Red Bull management really have?

[RedgateModels]

15 minutes ago, Pete the Elaner said:

 

I would publicly give Verstappen team orders to help Perez. Let's see what balls the Red Bull management really have?

 

Pointless, Max has demonstrated already that he will just ignore team orders that don't favour him

[newbryford]

20 minutes ago, Pete the Elaner said:

 

I would publicly give Verstappen team orders to help Perez. Let's see what balls the Red Bull management really have?

 

That didn't work in Brazil last year to help Perez to second in the drivers championship.

[Oldddudders]

3 minutes ago, newbryford said:

 

That didn't work in Brazil last year to help Perez to second in the drivers championship.

Exactly. The hunger in the fastest drivers often makes them poor team-players, it seems. Max is far from the first to display this single-mindedness. 

[Pete the Elaner]

Just now, Oldddudders said:

Exactly. The hunger in the fastest drivers often makes them poor team-players, it seems. Max is far from the first to display this single-mindedness. 

 

If the late Brian Clough were an F1 team manager, Verstappen would be dropped after clinching the title.

[Sidecar Racer]

6 minutes ago, Pete the Elaner said:

 

If the late Brian Clough were an F1 team manager, Verstappen would be dropped after clinching the title.

 

 Just like Damon Hill at Williams .

[OnTheBranchline]

[OnTheBranchline]

6 hours ago, Sidecar Racer said:

 

 Just like Damon Hill at Williams .

Fun fact: Frank Williams made the decision to fire Damon Hill in mid 1995 because Frank thought Damon was driving poorly that year and not even the 1996 title would change that.

Edited September 27, 2023 by OnTheBranchline

[didcot]

Frank and Patrick were pretty ruthless with drivers. 

Adrian Newey left Williams as Frank supposedly was going to give him a say on drivers. As he new Damon was off he did his best to ensure he got the title he deserved. Damon held the team together after Imola.

Frank and Patrick also hung Newey out to dry during the legal enquiry after Senna's death. Basically told him to fight his own legal battle without support from the team.

Worth reading both Newey's and Hill's latest biographies. 

[Obi-Jiff Kenobi]

20 hours ago, Pete the Elaner said:

If the 2 drivers like very different setups, which would you prioritise? The driver you think will be faster or the slower one? Or would you design something they both hate & tell them to shut up & get on with it?

That’s pretty much what Mercedes have done the last couple of seasons, and look where it’s got ‘em.

[woodenhead]

20 hours ago, Pete the Elaner said:

I would publicly give Verstappen team orders to help Perez. Let's see what balls the Red Bull management really have?

 

20 hours ago, RedgateModels said:

Pointless, Max has demonstrated already that he will just ignore team orders that don't favour him

 

19 hours ago, Oldddudders said:

Exactly. The hunger in the fastest drivers often makes them poor team-players, it seems. Max is far from the first to display this single-mindedness. 

 

A repeating world champion has to be singleminded, doing stuff for the good of the team works against their own drive.

 

An example perhaps of why Verstappen shouldn't now move to let Perez ahead 'for the team' is what happened with Hamilton when he was partnered by Rosberg.  Hamilton won the title and took his foot off the gas allowing Rosberg to win the remaining races, next season he came out of the blocks determined to keep that momentum up and ended up winning the title himself.   So the moral is, don't let people get into your head, champions win and continue to win, they don't do it for the team unless it favours them in some way with regards other rivals.

 

It is Perez's responsibility to drive himself to second place in the championship not Verstappen's.

 

The more I see of Verstappen the more I see his earlier behavious is a product of his father, the more he wins the more perhaps he can distance himself from his father and others like Piquet.

[Pete the Elaner]

2 hours ago, woodenhead said:

 

 

 

A repeating world champion has to be singleminded, doing stuff for the good of the team works against their own drive.

 

An example perhaps of why Verstappen shouldn't now move to let Perez ahead 'for the team' is what happened with Hamilton when he was partnered by Rosberg.  Hamilton won the title and took his foot off the gas allowing Rosberg to win the remaining races, next season he came out of the blocks determined to keep that momentum up and ended up winning the title himself.   So the moral is, don't let people get into your head, champions win and continue to win, they don't do it for the team unless it favours them in some way with regards other rivals.

 

It is Perez's responsibility to drive himself to second place in the championship not Verstappen's.

 

The more I see of Verstappen the more I see his earlier behavious is a product of his father, the more he wins the more perhaps he can distance himself from his father and others like Piquet.

 

I can very much see your points.

 

A lot mis-understood Verstappen's driving style earlier in his career. While he couldn't win a title, he was building a reputation similar to Senna & Schumacher, that he will crash rather than lose a wheel to wheel battle & the sooner others learned that, the quicker they will get out of his way.

That helped a lot in 2021. There were several incidents early in the season when Hamilton did back off rather than get punted off, but when Hamilton switched to using the same attitude in Silverstone, his fanatical followers (& you can include Horner with those) were all too keen to cry foul.

[Hroth]

Should be interesting next season if other teams get their acts together and start outperforming RB.  Will Mr Bean return to his ramming tactics when others can overtake him?

 

[30368]

2 hours ago, Pete the Elaner said:

A lot mis-understood Verstappen's driving style earlier in his career. While he couldn't win a title, he was building a reputation similar to Senna & Schumacher, that he will crash rather than lose a wheel to wheel battle & the sooner others learned that, the quicker they will get out of his way.

That helped a lot in 2021. There were several incidents early in the season when Hamilton did back off rather than get punted off, but when Hamilton switched to using the same attitude in Silverstone, his fanatical followers (& you can include Horner with those) were all too keen to cry foul.

 

The debate about RB and Verstappen has been interesting to watch. I have been following F1 since about 1966 and the start of the then new 3litre formula. I cannot think of a great F1 driver who became a repeat World Champion without a large slug of self centered ruthlessness in their approach to racing. True, with the greatly increased commercialisation of the sport and with this increased media interest has resulted in what seems to be "worse" behavoir by succesful drivers. I'm not sure that is true, they were always driven (sorry) and who may, or my not be very pleasant people. What has changed is the huge meadia circus and with that its tendancy to create goodies and badies.

 

Verstappen is a truly talented and great driver as was Michael Schumacher (who was in my view the best ever and outside of the car a very decent man) and Senna - whom I never got to like, was perhaps the most cynical of drivers but still great.

 

Kind regards,

 

30368

Edited September 28, 2023 by 30368

[OnTheBranchline]

2 hours ago, Pete the Elaner said:

 

I can very much see your points.

 

A lot mis-understood Verstappen's driving style earlier in his career. While he couldn't win a title, he was building a reputation similar to Senna & Schumacher, that he will crash rather than lose a wheel to wheel battle & the sooner others learned that, the quicker they will get out of his way.

That helped a lot in 2021. There were several incidents early in the season when Hamilton did back off rather than get punted off, but when Hamilton switched to using the same attitude in Silverstone, his fanatical followers (& you can include Horner with those) were all too keen to cry foul.

 

One thing people forget is that Verstappen really matured his racecraft in the 2020 season where he was pretty much all by himself most races (where he could practice tyre and pace management). He almost beat Bottas with a much inferior car and 5 DNFs to Bottas's 1 DNF. 

 

18 hours ago, didcot said:

Frank and Patrick were pretty ruthless with drivers. 

Adrian Newey left Williams as Frank supposedly was going to give him a say on drivers. As he new Damon was off he did his best to ensure he got the title he deserved. Damon held the team together after Imola.

Frank and Patrick also hung Newey out to dry during the legal enquiry after Senna's death. Basically told him to fight his own legal battle without support from the team.

Worth reading both Newey's and Hill's latest biographies. 

 

And look where being ruthless too much eventually got the team to the bottom of the standings. 

 

6 hours ago, Obi-Jiff Kenobi said:

That’s pretty much what Mercedes have done the last couple of seasons, and look where it’s got ‘em.

 

No, Mercedes got to where they are now by the engineers not listening to the drivers and only going off the projected numbers. 

[woodenhead]

53 minutes ago, OnTheBranchline said:

No, Mercedes got to where they are now by the engineers not listening to the drivers and only going off the projected numbers. 

Not sure it's that simple - the engineers had an idea under new regulations that might have given them an edge but it turned out wrong, the simulations could not be replicated in the real world.  The belief is that if it had worked Mercedes would have beaten everyone including Red Bull.  They entered this season with the same belief they could make it work but as they developed they found other limitations and eventually accepted they need to come back into the fold with design, it's just going to take all season to get there...for next season.

[OnTheBranchline]

Another fun fact: Lando Norris has outscored every driver except Max Verstappen since Silverstone.

 

Impressive considering how bad McLaren looked at the start of the year.

[njee20]

Yeah, the turnaround for McLaren is astonishing, and awesome! While Aston seem to be going the other way!

[SR71]

I think in historic racing - if such a thing still exists by then - last year's Mercedes will be unstoppable. The lack of testing meant they were always behind the car. If they could have taken it down to West Byfleet and run for several days they would have gotten to the bottom of the lack of correlation.

 

I also noted, for those that think Russell is getting the edge over Hamilton, see Russell's opportunist pass of Hamilton into the chicane last weekend and just how quickly Hamilton took it back. It does show how much they have to save the tyres though that he could immediately come back with that pace.

[57xx]

On 27/09/2023 at 12:12, Oldddudders said:

Exactly. The hunger in the fastest drivers often makes them poor team-players, it seems. Max is far from the first to display this single-mindedness. 

 

However, in that instance it wasn't the hunger to win, it was childish petulance and revenge that fuelled his behaviour.

[57xx]

2 hours ago, njee20 said:

Yeah, the turnaround for McLaren is astonishing, and awesome! While Aston seem to be going the other way!

 

Very awesome! Mclaren has been my favourite team since  the MP4/4 melted my heart (and eardrums). It is fantastic to see them making a come back after too many years in the doldrums.

Edited September 28, 2023 by 57xx