Whaley Shunt (Shallcross Yard)

[Middlepeak]

First reaction is that there's not enough relief in a sheet like that. Nor it there enough of an angular structure to the individual stones.

 

For that reason, I've decided that all the stonework on Friden will be laid with individual stones - plasticard in the case of the underbridge and buildings where the stones are dressed, but probably DAS clay for all the dry stone walling. There's a lot of it!

 

Sorry, but I don't think there's really a short cut, if you want it to look right!

 

G

[NHY 581]

Hi Nick, 

 

Work back on this thread to see how @2ManySpams is tackling his 7mm buildings. 

 

Post in thread 'Pencarrow - Cornish BR(S)' https://www.westernthunder.co.uk/threads/pencarrow-cornish-br-s.5154/post-293291

 

Stunning. 

 

Rob

[JustinDean]

I’m with Geraint on this. Having tried multiple techniques out on Middleton top the only way to create realistic Derbyshire stone walls is by scribing DAS. Plasticard sheets are just too flat and don’t look right. 
 

Jay

[Tortuga]

B*gger. Was hoping I’d found an easy way to represent those retaining walls!

 

For what it’s worth, I agree with you @Middlepeak - definitely individually laid DAS “stones” for the drystone walling (in the same manner as Physicsman).  I know Al used hacked plasticard for his walls on Ladmanlow (to great effect), but I figure hacking DAS will be more finger friendly!

 

I might be best off scribing those retaining walls though: what d’you reckon @JustinDean? Build an underlying structure then lay and scribe DAS directly onto that or make scribed sections away from the layout and attach them in place once done?  How did you go about your walls on Middleton Top?

 

@NHY 581 Cheers! I’ve had a quick look at Spam’s Western Thunder thread via the link, but need to look at it in more detail. I can’t view the photos as anything other than a thumbnail (without becoming a member of Western Thunder) though, which makes it a touch difficult to visualise what he says! I’ll try and check out his layout thread on here (assuming he has one / the photos are still in place).

[NHY 581]

8 hours ago, Tortuga said:

B*gger. Was hoping I’d found an easy way to represent those retaining walls!

 

For what it’s worth, I agree with you @Middlepeak - definitely individually laid DAS “stones” for the drystone walling (in the same manner as Physicsman).  I know Al used hacked plasticard for his walls on Ladmanlow (to great effect), but I figure hacking DAS will be more finger friendly!

 

I might be best off scribing those retaining walls though: what d’you reckon @JustinDean? Build an underlying structure then lay and scribe DAS directly onto that or make scribed sections away from the layout and attach them in place once done?  How did you go about your walls on Middleton Top?

 

@NHY 581 Cheers! I’ve had a quick look at Spam’s Western Thunder thread via the link, but need to look at it in more detail. I can’t view the photos as anything other than a thumbnail (without becoming a member of Western Thunder) though, which makes it a touch difficult to visualise what he says! I’ll try and check out his layout thread on here (assuming he has one / the photos are still in place).

 

Morning Nick. 

 

Spams doesn't update his layout thread here,  only WT. Sorry, I forgot the thumbnail thing. Worth joining mind you. There is some very good modelling on there. 

 

Rob

 

 

 

 

[2ManySpams]

12 hours ago, Tortuga said:

@JustinDean @Middlepeak I’d appreciate your thoughts on whether this offering from South Eastern Finecast is a close-ish match to the rough stone walling at Shallcross?

 

Not sure whether its also close to Derbyshire Drystone Walling as well?

 

Ah my old nemesis. Finding suitable embossed plastic sheet for my buildings. Generally I find something suitable for about half of my buildings. For the rest I employ several options:

1. Attacking the sheet with various tools to modify its appearance. The Wills course stone is a favourite as it can be carved, sanded, have filler added to it and scribed.

2. DAS stone effect clay. Nice grey base colour with a slight texture. Can be carved, sanded and scribed.

3. Plasticard sheet. Can be attacked, carved, sanded and scribed.

4. Plasticard bits. I think Rob is referring to this in his post above. Here I raid the plasticard offcuts box and stick lots of different thickness (10 to 60 thou) to the structure to form rough blocks and then carve and scribe to get the desired finish. 

 

These are the tools I use.

Think laterally with some. The course fil and razor saw can be dragged to give a textured finish to plastic.

 

An example of method 3 is below (must finish painting it)

 

 

 

 

 

 

A few photos of method 4 progressing. 

Various thickness bits stuck on the shell.

 

Then worked on with the tools above.

 

 

You can also merge in with Wills sheets where their finish is closer. I do tend to attack, fill and amend the Wills sheet in places. 

 

 

I'm currently just starting to paint this building. There's going to be washes over the building to tone it all down. 

 

[2ManySpams]

For option 2, here's some Wills stone sheet that, to me, looked too much like crazy paving. So the block shapes were attacked in places, filled in others and scribed.

 

 

 

 

There's also the option to use the plasticard sheet as a base. Here I've rendered over the top of it.

 

 

 

 

[2ManySpams]

10 hours ago, JustinDean said:

I’m with Geraint on this. Having tried multiple techniques out on Middleton top the only way to create realistic Derbyshire stone walls is by scribing DAS. Plasticard sheets are just too flat and don’t look right. 
 

Jay

 

I'd agree about the SEF sheet pictured in the question but there are other options and methods. DAS is certainly one but I wouldn't write off plasticard. It all depends on what you are trying to replicate.

[2ManySpams]

9 hours ago, Tortuga said:

B*gger. Was hoping I’d found an easy way to represent those retaining walls!

 

For what it’s worth, I agree with you @Middlepeak - definitely individually laid DAS “stones” for the drystone walling (in the same manner as Physicsman).  I know Al used hacked plasticard for his walls on Ladmanlow (to great effect), but I figure hacking DAS will be more finger friendly!

 

I might be best off scribing those retaining walls though: what d’you reckon @JustinDean? Build an underlying structure then lay and scribe DAS directly onto that or make scribed sections away from the layout and attach them in place once done?  How did you go about your walls on Middleton Top?

 

@NHY 581 Cheers! I’ve had a quick look at Spam’s Western Thunder thread via the link, but need to look at it in more detail. I can’t view the photos as anything other than a thumbnail (without becoming a member of Western Thunder) though, which makes it a touch difficult to visualise what he says! I’ll try and check out his layout thread on here (assuming he has one / the photos are still in place).

 

Hi Nick, as you can't fully see the photos on WT I've included a few in the two posts above. Shout if you want anything more or have questions.

 

Edit: and to expand on Rob's comment. Yes, I now rarely post my building modelling on RMweb. I got fed up with comments along the line of "don't know why you bother, just buy a kit", or "spending time on buildings is a waste, people only look at the trains", or "you're a rivet counter".

 

To an extent the second comment is correct. People are much less likely to visit or comment on threads about buildings. It misses the point though that the reason I model buildings to the same level as track or stock is that I enjoy it. It just gets dull defending what you enjoy.

[Tortuga]

6 minutes ago, 2ManySpams said:

 

Hi Nick, as you can't fully see the photos on WT I've included a few in the two posts above. Shout if you want anything more or have questions.

Cheers @2ManySpams those photos really clarify your explanations! Many thanks!

 

For clarity, this:

is the type stonework I’m trying to replicate.

[2ManySpams]

4 minutes ago, Tortuga said:

Cheers @2ManySpams those photos really clarify your explanations! Many thanks!

 

For clarity, this:

is the type stonework I’m trying to replicate.

 

Ah, good luck!

 

Doable though in either DAS (I'd use their stone type) or plasticard. Both will take a while though. Depending on how much you have to do it might be worth making several masters and then casting in resin. I'd do each side separately and apply separate stones along the top to finish. 

 

The closest I've seen to that sort of finish is the interlocking plastic mouldings I used for this wall...

 

 

 

 

But even those are too regular.

[JustinDean]

Beautiful work there Spams. Shame you don’t feel like you can post here anymore!

 

The thing with Derbyshire stone is it’s just so random. Any plasticard or mould will have a repeated pattern. You’ve got round this by heavily modifying those sheets and they look great. 
 

I’ve also tried some wall sections from moulds and I’m treating these as temporary ‘place holders’; they’ll be replaced with DAS when I have the time…and they really do take a lot of time!

 

Jay

[2ManySpams]

3 minutes ago, JustinDean said:

Beautiful work there Spams. Shame you don’t feel like you can post here anymore!

 

The thing with Derbyshire stone is it’s just so random. Any plasticard or mould will have a repeated pattern. You’ve got round this by heavily modifying those sheets and they look great. 
 

I’ve also tried some wall sections from moulds and I’m treating these as temporary ‘place holders’; they’ll be replaced with DAS when I have the time…and they really do take a lot of time!

 

Jay

 

Thanks Jay,

 

I think to get the completely random effect and the voids and see through bits you almost have to replicate how the real things have been built. Not quick or easy. 

 

Have you also explored casting thin layers (3mm ish) of polyfiller and then breaking up onto lumps, building the wall from those lumps? Again not a quick method.

[2ManySpams]

Late to the party... What sort of length are you talking about for this wall(s)? Is it inches, feet or yards? 

 

PS, happy to remove my earlier photos as they clearly have nothing to do with stone walls. I wrongly assumed you were thinking about stonework for buildings.

[Fishplate]

1 hour ago, 2ManySpams said:

"spending time on buildings is a waste, some people only look at the trains"

 

Modified the above and sorry to hear of your experiences on RMWeb.

 

Others (like me!) enjoy looking at layouts at an exhibition between trains. The whole layout can place it geographically without a single item of rolling stock. The vast majority of the pictures I take at exhibitions are of the layout, not the trains. I often wait until a train has gone before taking a photograph.

 

Maybe I'm just odd.

 

It might explain my wildly non- era specific train collection. I'm looking more at location, albeit, due to space and my wish list, non-prototype based. Hopefully, in due course, people will be able to recognise the geographical location of my layout.

 

They may be slightly confused by the combination of stock though. Rule 1 being applicable!

[Tortuga]

1 hour ago, 2ManySpams said:

Edit: and to expand on Rob's comment. Yes, I now rarely post my building modelling on RMweb. I got fed up with comments along the line of "don't know why you bother, just buy a kit", or "spending time on buildings is a waste, people only look at the trains", or "you're a rivet counter".

If everyone followed those lines of thought:

1) positioning of structures would look contrived - a kit won’t necessarily “fit in”, but that’s OK (see point 2)

2) why bother with scenery at all if people only look at the trains? Bare baseboards all the way! In fact, forget the signalling as well and don’t bother to hide the wiring either; no-one’s going to comment as they’re only here to look at the trains!

3) because striving to reproduce the feel, that essence, of the past in as much detail as possible is such a bad thing. I feel “rivet counter” is being misused these days to insult those of us who are trying to reproduce the “essence” of realism in miniature, by those who can’t be bothered to try and raise their own standard of modelling.

 

Rant over *gets down, puts soap back in box, exits stage left*

[Graham T]

Just a thought on the dry stone walls, and it's probably complete nonsense, but...

 

As you're contemplating taking plaster and breaking it into lumps, then glueing them together to make the wall...

 

Why not use real stone of the correct size and colour?  Is there some fine gravel out there in the real world that you could use?  Some of the smaller grades here might work?  (Although you may want to see if they'll sell you a smaller bag!)

[JustinDean]

I can just see my partners face as a delivery of 800kg of gravel turns up. 
 

The closest I’ve got to this is I had a massive block of clay go off so I smashed it with a hammer and the bits were made up into the first walls I built on Middleton Top. These are easily the most realistic ones on the layout. 
 

 

The stones are on the large side but you get the idea. 
 

Jay

[Tortuga]

19 minutes ago, 2ManySpams said:

Late to the party... What sort of length are you talking about for this wall(s)? Is it inches, feet or yards? 

 

PS, happy to remove my earlier photos as they clearly have nothing to do with stone walls. I wrongly assumed you were thinking about stonework for buildings.

Nooo! Please don’t remove your earlier photos of buildings! H*ll, if nothing else, I need them for inspiration, when I think “Hmm, what technique could I use for this?”

 

Length of walls. Hmm, there is a question. For Whaley Shunt we’re talking five or six foot of walling in total, about four feet of which is more akin to a retaining wall, up to a scale 15 foot high (60mm). On my other layout (Alsop-en-le-Dale), both sides of the track have a boundary wall for the full length of the scenic section (about 4 metres), plus there are assorted field boundaries…

 

…umm… yards I guess?

[2ManySpams]

14 minutes ago, Graham T said:

Just a thought on the dry stone walls, and it's probably complete nonsense, but...

 

As you're contemplating taking plaster and breaking it into lumps, then glueing them together to make the wall...

 

Why not use real stone of the correct size and colour?  Is there some fine gravel out there in the real world that you could use?  Some of the smaller grades here might work?  (Although you may want to see if they'll sell you a smaller bag!)

 

Whilst the stone is ready coloured and an authentic product, it's also very hard and  not something at our scale that can be easily adjusted. Plasticard, clay and DAS can all be easily adjusted and shaped either during the build or afterwards if something needs tinkering with.

[Tortuga]

Thanks for all the input gents. Obviously embossed sheet isn’t going to cut it (there are no shortcuts!) and I think the best shot is going to be individually laid DAS / Polyfiller stones.

[2ManySpams]

10 hours ago, Tortuga said:

Thanks for all the input gents. Obviously embossed sheet isn’t going to cut it (there are no shortcuts!) and I think the best shot is going to be individually laid DAS / Polyfiller stones.

 

1no padded cell on order🤣

[Peter Kazmierczak]

Very impressed with those buildings; top notch modelling. When I taught in the Peak District, I once took my class to the National Stone Centre, where we tried our hand at stone walling. I wonder if our efforts are still standing?

[Middlepeak]

Just as an indicator, the bridge structure for Friden has been done in plasticard (individual stones, suitably 'distressed'), because there is less relief to the prototype stonework. Total time taken - about 35 to 40 hours per side, including a full weekend at Missenden. Dry stone walling will however be a different matter. A rough calculation suggests that about 12 actual metres of the stuff will be required. Probably hundreds of hours of work, but these walls are the real signature of the White Peak, and therefore just as important as the railway and the trains!

 

[Tortuga]

Nice work there Geraint!

I think Wills Coarse Stone sheets are a pretty close match for the stonework of the Chapel Road bridge at Whaley Bridge (so I’ll be using those), but the retaining walls either side are definitely more akin to the Derbyshire Drystone walls.

 

Right now I’m trying to work out how to build up a supporting structure for them using cardboard mock-ups:

These are just for the retaining walls. They’re topped by drystone walls, which I estimate from the reference photos to be between 4’ to 6’ in height.

 

I’ve also started carving some leftover cellotex foam into shape for the course of the river. In due course, I intend to use cellotex to fill in the spaces either side of the cutting, but first I need to work out what to do about the row of cottages that back onto Shallcross Yard. These are positioned much further from the line than I’ve got room for, but I’m thinking of ignoring reality and having their yards  more or less directly back onto the top of the retaining wall.